29mm Crown Caps Popping Off

[Sam Robinson]

Comrades,

I've scoured the archives on this matter and still I cannot figure out what's going on.

Here's a summary of the situation...

• Traditional method, and traditional/ancestral method hybrid.
• Pneumatic capper from Vigo. Compresser within capacity.
• I sent the capper back to Vigo earlier this year and they tested it and apparently everything seemed fine.
• Up to 30% of bottles popping caps off, dramatically. 
• Particularly during warm weather, unfortunately our bottles are stored in an agricultural shed with fluctuating temperatures. 
• Reoccurring problem over 3 years. 
• Three different kinds of full weight champagne bottles. (from Three Choirs and AE Chapman).  
• Three different kinds of crown caps with bidules (Vigo, Peleconi and Corona).
• Varrying but reasonable levels of sugar added. 10-17 grams. SG varrying between 1.005 and 1.012.

It's all getting a bit messy in this heat. The shed is like a wild west saloon after a few too many! Vigo have sent a replacement crimper. I'm going through the stillages and running every bottle back under the capper with the new crimper, and then another handcapper just for good measure. This is making a subtle difference to the crimp, pulling it in ever so slightly. However I'm still getting a few bottles popping caps after recrimping. It's been a long day, and I just cannot figure this out. If I understand correctly, if the cap is appropriate and is propperly crimped, then the bottle should either be fine, or explode if the pressure exceeds 7 bar, but the caps should not be popping off like this. Any thoughts welcome...

Cheers!

Sam     

[Christian Stolte]

Brother,

At what pressure do you reach HIMARS? Are you monitoring pressures with gauges like https://www.bacbrewing.com or https://www.sabastrumentazione.com/it ?

I had bad experience with Stelplast crown caps that have the bidule built it. These caps were without doubt blowing more, when close to an air hole in my wall - so fluctuating temps can have a bad affect, as you mentioned.

Pelliconi caps with separate bidule work for me.

Note that residual gas is significantly higher at low temperatures and therefore can be underestimated.

Finally, bottling at 1.012 (if I read that correctly) will generate 8 atm. Adding 10g sugar can generate another 2.5 atm. That is a lot!



With kind regards
Christian

+44 751 4043852
30 Abbotshall Road, Cults, AB15 9JX, United Kingdom

The Wee Scottish Cider Company Ltd.
https://seidear.com/
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[Sam Robinson]

Hi Christian,

I haven't been monitoring pressures, no. This is something I should look into.

Thanks for sharing the diagram, useful to see it like that.

Sori, the grams of sugar/SG wasn't expressed very clearly. Over the last three years I've added varrying levels of sugar, between 10 and 17 grams, reaching a final amended SG of between 1.005 and 1.012, although most have been around 1.007/1.008. And yeah, 1.012 is certainly on the edge!   

Hwyl am y tro

Sam

---

Oddi wrth: Christian Stolte <cst...@gmx.de>
Anfonwyd: Dydd Mawrth, 13 Mehefin 2023 23:50
At: Sam Robinson <swrob...@gmail.com>
Copi: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Pwnc: Re: [Cider Workshop] 29mm Crown Caps Popping Off

 

[Dick Dunn]

Sam - With the matter of bottle pressure being a separate consideration,
and Christian addressing that with you, I'm still thinking there's
something wrong with the capping process. You asked, shouldn't a bottle
either hold or explode? Yes, definitely. It's not at all normal for caps
to pop off. (Exploding bottles aren't "normal" but they are a normal
failure mode.) So even if you did have excess pressure, something else is
going on also.

Is there a way for you to get a picture of a bottle, an unused cap, and a
capped bottle (seen from the side so we can assess the crimping)?

If you grab a cap on a just-capped bottle, can you make it turn?

What is your normal fill level? If you've got bottles marked on the base
for fill level (normally mm down from the top) do you follow that closely,
or are you above or below it?

My brain kept trying to latch on to the idea of some mismatch. There are
two "normal" sizes--26 and 29 mm. There are three objects involved--the
bottle finish, the cap, and the crimping bell. So there are eight
possibilities. Two of them work: everything 26 mm and everything 29 mm.
The other combinations fail in various ways; I wasn't able to make any
mismatch of bell/cap/bottle close but form an inadequate seal. The most
obvious mismatch which could generate a poor seal--26 cap on 29 bottle--
I couldn't come close to closing with either bell. So, dead end, but it's
useful to rule out those possibilities.

On Tue, Jun 13, 2023 at 02:22:47PM -0700, Sam Robinson wrote:
> Comrades,
>
> I've scoured the archives on this matter and still I cannot figure out
> what's going on.
>
> Here's a summary of the situation...
>

> - Traditional method, and traditional/ancestral method hybrid.
> - Pneumatic capper from Vigo. Compresser within capacity.
> - I sent the capper back to Vigo earlier this year and they tested it

> and apparently everything seemed fine.

> - Up to 30% of bottles popping caps off, dramatically.
> - Particularly during warm weather, unfortunately our bottles are stored

> in an agricultural shed with fluctuating temperatures.

> - Reoccurring problem over 3 years.
> - Three different kinds of full weight champagne bottles. (from Three
> Choirs and AE Chapman).
> - Three different kinds of crown caps with bidules (Vigo, Peleconi and
> Corona).
> - Varrying but reasonable levels of sugar added. 10-17 grams. SG

> varrying between 1.005 and 1.012.
>
> It's all getting a bit messy in this heat. The shed is like a wild west
> saloon after a few too many! Vigo have sent a replacement crimper. I'm
> going through the stillages and running every bottle back under the capper
> with the new crimper, and then another handcapper just for good measure.
> This is making a subtle difference to the crimp, pulling it in ever so
> slightly. However I'm still getting a few bottles popping caps after
> recrimping. It's been a long day, and I just cannot figure this out. If I
> understand correctly, if the cap is appropriate and is propperly crimped,
> then the bottle should either be fine, or explode if the pressure exceeds 7
> bar, but the caps should not be popping off like this. Any thoughts
> welcome...
>
> Cheers!
>
> Sam
>
>

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--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Sam Robinson]

Morning Dick,

Many thanks for your response.

No, I cannot turn the cap on a just capped bottle.

So fill level could well be a problem. I suspect I've been overfilling. I've attached the bottle specifications I received from Chapman. I must confess I don't entirely understand the diagram and annotations. 

Can you deduce a fill level from this information?

Alternatively, the bottom of the bottle appears to read "75cl ...390mm...B  V  F l..." (Photographs attached)

So potentially that's a fill level of 390mm down from the top, which I have been exceeding.

I'm also fairly confident that the original crimp from bottling is insufficent. Also attached are a series of before and after photos on 4 randomly selected bottles. I ran them all under a griffo handcapper and that seemed to tighten the crimp slightly. Just to explain the photos, 1.1 is bottle 1 before recrimping, 1.2 is bottle 1 after recrimping, and so on. Then the final photo is a before and after compared side by side. The difference is subtle, but I believe perceptible.

However some of these recrimped bottles have subsequently popped their caps, although at a lower rate of losses than before.

At this point, my feeling is that it's some combination of incomplete crimping, overfull bottles and heat (and possibly some bottles with excessive pressure over the capacity of the bottle). 

Does this sound realistic?

As regards action, I'll continue recrimping the bottles and cover the stillages with black out cloth to try and control the temperature somewhat. 

However, if the fill level is the problem, could it be worth opening and recapping at a lower fill level? I suspect this would be chaos with the ammount of carbonation we've got. 

I'm heading up to the shed shortly so will take some more photos later today.

Many thanks for your time and support.

Sam  

---

Oddi wrth: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com> ar ran Dick Dunn <rc...@talisman.com>
Anfonwyd: Dydd Mercher, 14 Mehefin 2023 02:29
At: cider-w...@googlegroups.com <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Pwnc: Re: [Cider Workshop] 29mm Crown Caps Popping Off

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[Johan Strömberg]

I had problem with the capping process some years ago with my method trad ciders. Some contents of the liquid was drained away from capped bottles (bottles were laying on their sides) but(!) apparently the added sugar somehow formed good enough seal that the pressure was still stuck inside of the bottle when second fermentation was finished. That was really dangerous as bottles had way more pressure because of empty head space (up to 50% of bottle). I did not had any problem with corks poppin though but some were really loose cannon when I had to open all leaked bottles. Did you notice any leak from your bottles?

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[Sam Robinson]

Not sure if the attachments sent with the previous email. This should be all of them now...

Sam 

   

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Anfonwyd: Dydd Mercher, 14 Mehefin 2023 02:29
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Pwnc: Re: [Cider Workshop] 29mm Crown Caps Popping Off

 

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[Sam Robinson]

Thanks Johan. No leaks, just pops!

[Andy Backinsell]

Probably not useful but just in case,  the images remind me of some prosecco bottles that I used (on a very tiny hobby level) which were never a good fit for the 29mm caps (with bidule) and we didn't bother with any more.  Could it be that they are primarily designed for cork & crown? That it's the shape not the cap/pressure?

[Andy Backinsell]

*Cork & wire I mean!

[tanja s]

Agree with Andy! 

Sent from my iPhone

On 14 Jun 2023, at 11:18 AM, Andy Backinsell <raymond...@gmail.com> wrote:

*Cork & wire I mean!

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[scott heath]

I agree with Andy as well, as in my experience, like Dick said, usually the bottle explodes before the cap pops off, in the case of over-pressurization. See if you can talk to the supplier of the glass about whether those crown rims are really meant to be used for crowns.

My other two cents: Griffo capper or none!  And fill level is VERY important. Fill a beaker to 750ml (or whatever capacity your bottles are supposed to be) with water and fill a bottle. Note that it probably looks like a low fill. The reason for that is to keep the pressure in the tolerable zone. People may feel like they're being generous, filling to within a 20mm of the cap but that's asking for trouble when you are refermenting in bottle.

Scott

[Sam Robinson]

Thanks all for your insights. The bottles are crus de france champagne bottles from AE chapman. I checked before ordering and yes they are definitely designed to take a crown cap. I suspect what we've got is a perfect storm between fill level, incomplete crimp and a heat wave!

Sam

[Dick Dunn]

Sam - It was a bit hard to tell from the photos, but some notes of import
here:

The fill level is indeed marked on the bottom of the bottle, but it's not
"390 mm--which would probably be taller than the bottle itself! Rather,
it starts with a "reversed epsilon" (not a '3'), which indicates reference
to a standard, followed by "90 mm" which is the actual distance.
This is measured from the very top of the crown down to the level of the
liquid. As Scott Heath said, this may look like a low fill, but it's
correct.
Also, if you look at the bottle specification pdf, you can see the 90 mm
dimension to the right of the bottle, indicating 75.0 cl ± 1.0 at that fill
level of 90 mm down from the crown.

It sounded like you were filling considerably above that level, and also
leaving residual sugar levels which would produce high carbonation levels.
The bottle itself is rated for 13 bar long-term, which is substantial.

So shall we go with a hybrid hypothesis for the popping caps? How about
potential carbonation on the high side, plus fill level much too high, plus
a bottle actually strong enough to withstand pressure up to what will pop the
cap?

And one more point: Scott noted "People may feel like they're being

generous, filling to within a 20mm of the cap but that's asking for trouble
when you are refermenting in bottle".

There's another problem--overfill may be a regulatory issue: The Tax Man!
If you put 770 ml in the bottle and sell it as a 750, there's 20 ml of
product on which tax has not been paid.
I don't know how your regs read in the UK, but in the US a bottle of that
size would have to be filled within ± 5 ml of stated capacity.