Cider apples in cold climate

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I was asked about recommended cider apple varieties that are hardy in
cold climates and since I thought this could be of interest to other
cidermakers that also grow apples in such climates I am posting this
here.

The climate here in my orchard near Quebec City is quite harsh. Winter
temperatures normally fall down to -30C, with, about once every 5
years, a cold spell down to -35. We get a lot of snow, typically there
is over a meter of thickness of snow on the ground from December until
end of March. This snow does protect the root system and delays bloom
time as it takes some time to melt. Bloom time is between last week of
May to beginning of June. Summers are rather short and cool, with
temperatures rarely exceeding 30C. We start getting hard freezes by
end of October. This is Canadian zone 4, also fairly equivalent to
USDA zone 4.

The following European cider apple varieties did adapt very well here
and I would recommend them to others that have similar cold climates.
They all show good vigor and hardiness, but some have not been very
productive yet (noted with a -).
Yarlingtom Mill, Muscadet de Dieppe(-), Bulmer's Norman, Brown's
Apple, Coat Jersey(-), Porter's Perfection(-).
Of these, Yarlington Mill and Bulmer's Norman are my favorites.

The following have failed for a reason or another, but most likely are
not hardy enough for the climate:
Chisel Jersey, Medaille d'Or, Stoke Red (hardy but doesn't produce any
fruit), Breakwell Seedling (hardy but not healthy and poor fruit
quality)

There are many others for which I can't yet make an opinion as I still
haven't enough experience with them:
Ashton Bitter, Bramtot, Brown Snout, Dabinett, Kermerrien, Major,
Michelin, Reine des pommes, Sweet Coppin, Tremlett's Bitter.

And these are my local cider apples, which are very hardy and
productive:
Bilodeau, Douce de Charlevoix, Banane amère.
Descriptions can be seen at:
http://cjoliprsf.awardspace.biz/cidrvars.htm

Claude,
in Quebec.

[goet...@gmail.com]

Claude, I’m wondering if you’ve updated your opinions on the ‘pending’ varieties in your original post or have others to add. I think the climate here (northernmost lower Michigan) is very similar to yours. Last and first frosts are June 1 and October 1. We get less than 2000 growing degree days, base 50.

I planted graftlings of two varieties on your list last year. Two trees each of Dabinet and Yarlington Mill. All thrived last summer, but both of the Dabinets died over the winter. The Yarlington Mills have woken up nicely.

If others have positive experiences with cold climate varieties, please chime in!

Thanks!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 14 mai 2018 19:12:25 UTC-4, goet...@gmail.com a écrit :

Claude, I’m wondering if you’ve updated your opinions on the ‘pending’ varieties in your original post or have others to add. I think the climate here (northernmost lower Michigan) is very similar to yours. Last and first frosts are June 1 and October 1. We get less than 2000 growing degree days, base 50.

Well, Yarlington Mill and Bulmer's Norman are still the 2 English varieties that perform best. Bulmer's being more productive.
The varieties I had noted as not productive enough didn't really improve on that aspect...
Of the English sharps and bittersharps (Brown's Apple and Porter's Perfection), it seems the acidities are much higher than published data for the UK, which makes them much less desirable.
Some French varieties that seem promising are Reine des pommes and Kermerrien.
And one for which I have high expectations is the Eastman Sweet, an american bittersweet that was propagated by St-Lawrence Nurseries - it appears quite productive with a high quality bittersweet flavor. And is very hardy.
 

I planted graftlings of two varieties on your list last year. Two trees each of Dabinet and Yarlington Mill. All thrived last summer, but both of the Dabinets died over the winter. The Yarlington Mills have woken up nicely.

Yes it does appear Dabinett isn't as hardy in cold winter as is Yarlington. I have a friend in a slightly warmer area who was telling me Dabinett struggles for him and doesn't do much good.

The more it goes, the more I think the best avenue is to find native seedlings that have good properties for cider making. In the long run, this approach will probably prove to be better than trying to use foreign varieties that aren't really adapted.

Claude

[luis gauthier]

Claude,

I am wondering how some of the listed in 2011 varieties as too early to have an opinion on are doing almost 10 years later.

I am especiallly interested to know how Sweet coppin is doing. I've heard great things about it (hugely productive) in a zone 5b maritime climate and added it to my own orchard last year. I am also curious about Ashton & tremlett bitter, bramtot and major.

Thank you,

Louis

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 10 mars 2020 15:19:03 UTC-4, luis gauthier a écrit :

I am especiallly interested to know how Sweet coppin is doing. I've heard great things about it (hugely productive) in a zone 5b maritime climate and added it to my own orchard last year. I am also curious about Ashton & tremlett bitter, bramtot and major.

Sweet Coppin is still alive, but barely.

Ashton Bitter is dead

Tremlett, I have a new tree started but the original graft died

Bramtot and Major, still hard to say as I did get a few fruits but nothing to really be pleased about.

[brian goetz]

Claude... I forget... are you the equivalent of USDA zone 4b?

Your post hit me with a solid ‘oh no’ regarding my Ashton bitter and major that I’ve planted. 4b-5a here.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Not sure if equivalent to USDA 4a or 4b...

And experience in a single location is not enough to yield sure results. Hardiness and adaptability should be assessed after multiple testing if many locations.

Claude

[Dick Dunn]

I'm not Claude, and he's already answered anyway, but I can say that Major
has done passably well for me here. I'm probably 4b, although I might have
moved almost into 5a (due to the global warming which is fake news to some).
Major isn't my best variety here by a long-shot, but it's done well enough
that I grafted a few last night and will do a few more tonight, fwiw.

I had trouble finding Ashton Bitter for a while, then got -one- going, then
lost it due to drought + sad neglect, nothing to do with climate that I
know.

On Tue, Mar 10, 2020 at 06:21:47PM -0700, brian goetz wrote:
> Claude... I forget... are you the equivalent of USDA zone 4b?
>
> Your post hit me with a solid "oh no" regarding my Ashton bitter and major that I've planted. 4b-5a here.
>

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[brian goetz]

Claude... I understand what you’re saying... results in one place can’t be used to predict results in another. I’m three years in on an orchard from grafts on M111 and am looking at trees in the 4-6 foot range (bad soil... really bad, but getting better). With that, a hint of bad news always hits hard, and good news is desperately sought. So, maybe I overreacted.

Dick... likewise, your post may have me feeling too optimistic.

Me... trees grow way too slowly for impatient souls! In a few years, I hope to be able to add a number of data points for cold climate varieties.

All... wish me patience, please!

[luis gauthier]

Out of curiosity Dick, because you are in a somehow similar climate zone as mine (4b), what are the varieties that do best in you area?

Louis

[Frozen North Fruit]

Just keeping this thread alive.

I am in zone 4b (USDA 3b) north of Ottawa, Canada. I am a lazy hobbiest with high deer pressure so am growing everything on B118 in a no-spray cold climate orchard.

Have been trialing cider apples by grafting on a frankentree for 4 years now.  They all fruited this year but then I lost the trunk to an apple borer in the early summer so I have to wait another 1-2 years for my backup grafts to fruit.  Shoot!

I did however get ONE Frequin Rouge and I was blown away.  There was NOTHING that I have ever tasted like this apple. I have tasted over 100+ wild apples and nothing was as tannic and complex as Frequin Rouge.  It even seemed 2-3x more tannic than Dolgo.  It had dried on the tree to a somewhat leather texture (perhaps 2 weeks too late) but still produced juice when squeezed that had a brix of 24 which is over double what I usually see published.  I have tasted Bilodeau and those are great but way less tannins of this Frequin Rouge.   I have tasted Douce de Charlevoix and it is a pure sweet with not much complexity in flavor, pretty much just a sugar source based on my EXTREMELY limited experience however apples are a good size and the tree is hardy.

I still need to compile my data from this year but apples that did impress me were Festive treat at 17.5 brix in mid-sept with complex flavors and some tannins without too much acid (bitter-sharp(ish)) and Honey Gold in early october with 18 brix (sharp). Both of these are big 200g+ apples and seem very hardy.  Disappointed with Hewe's crab (small, pure sweet, not complex flavor), Granniwinkle (only 12 brix, sharp) and some others.  I have around 119 grafted varieties (https://www.frozennorthfruit.com/fruit-list/#Apple) and am slowly trying to bring the info up to date to share data for others in similar climates.

It is disappointing to have not been able to taste the other European varieties as I was hoping to have some local experience to guide me as I plant 53 trees next spring and about 100 the following year for a hobby(ish) cider orchard.

Per most of Claudes notes it seems like Yarlington Mill and Bulmers Norman are his primary winners for european varieites. 

For anyone else in cold climates I would love to hear about your experience (vigor, productivity, disease, hardiness, ect) of cider varieties such as Yarlington Mill, Bulmers Norman, Porters Perfection, Brown Snout, Banane Amere, Chisel Jersey, Frequin Rouge, Muscadet de dieppe, Stokes Red and Tremletts Geneva Bitter? Are there others you really like in zone 4 or colder? If so, what zone are you in and how have they worked for you?

I figure if I am lucky I have 20-30 years of growing ahead of me and I would like to avoid making mistakes now when it can take up to 8 years to start bearing decent yields.

All the best.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 18 octobre 2021 à 14:45:43 UTC-4, Frozen North Fruit a écrit :

I did however get ONE Frequin Rouge and I was blown away.  There was NOTHING that I have ever tasted like this apple. I have tasted over 100+ wild apples and nothing was as tannic and complex as Frequin Rouge.  It even seemed 2-3x more tannic than Dolgo.  It had dried on the tree to a somewhat leather texture (perhaps 2 weeks too late) but still produced juice when squeezed that had a brix of 24 which is over double what I usually see published. 

I haven't tasted Frequin Rouge yet - I have a small tree that is still a number of years before bearing age. But I suspect it might be somewhat similar to Kermerrien, as it descend from Frequin. And as you, I have tasted hundreds of wild and cultivated apples, and never encountered anything else as intensely bitter. Even Banane amère is "de la petite bière" in comparison with Kermerrien... if you permit the Quebecois expression.

 

I have tasted Bilodeau and those are great but way less tannins of this Frequin Rouge.

  

True...

I have tasted Douce de Charlevoix and it is a pure sweet with not much complexity in flavor, pretty much just a sugar source based on my EXTREMELY limited experience however apples are a good size and the tree is hardy.

 

It does have a lot more tannins than commercial apples, but it remains a very soft tannin - nothing in comparison to Kermerrien.

Disappointed with Hewe's crab (small, pure sweet, not complex flavor),

Interesting - it is very sharp for me with TAs usually around 10 g/L as malic

 

Per most of Claudes notes it seems like Yarlington Mill and Bulmers Norman are his primary winners for european varieites. 

Yes, these 2 have been doing well for over 25 years in my orchard. But again, nowhere as intensely bitter as Kermerrien.

For anyone else in cold climates I would love to hear about your experience (vigor, productivity, disease, hardiness, ect) of cider varieties such as Yarlington Mill, Bulmers Norman, Porters Perfection, Brown Snout, Banane Amere, Chisel Jersey, Frequin Rouge, Muscadet de dieppe, Stokes Red and Tremletts Geneva Bitter? Are there others you really like in zone 4 or colder? If so, what zone are you in and how have they worked for you?

 

If you haven't seen this document yet, have a look at http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/Documents/tableau_vars.pdf

This is a summary from my notes of growing such varieties.

I figure if I am lucky I have 20-30 years of growing ahead of me and I would like to avoid making mistakes now when it can take up to 8 years to start bearing decent yields.

20-30 years is probably more than what I have in front of me... But still plenty of time to experiment with wild apples. For my part, I think the future is there more than in imported varieties - even if we never find anything as intense as some of the French apples, some of the wild apples do permit to make superior ciders.

[Frozen North Fruit]

Thanks Claude!  Always wonderful to read your comments.  I have read your PDF document but was not sure how up-to-date it was. I also have both your french and english books.  You are 100% my main reference for cold climate cider apple growing.

Please do not feel that I am disparaging your 3 selected varieties, I just wanted to describe my experience with tasting a known european cider apple and contrast to the most well known quebec varities.  

Of the 100+ wild apples I have tasted, the 2 of yours are right at the top!

I have tasted pretty much most of the disease resistant varieties that grow in our region.  Goldrush (too late), Pristine (too floral), Wolf River (not as good as Northern Spy for pies), Macfree (ok but no comparison to a ripe McIntosh), Liberty (ok but no comparison to a ripe McIntosh), Crimson Crisp (excellent), Williams Pride (ok but no comparison to a ripe McIntosh although early), Florina (ok), ect.  None of them were particularly special (beyond CrimsonCrisp for fresh eating) however now that I am starting to get flowers from of these European cider apples it might be an interesting hobby to cross some with hardy, disease resistant varieties and plant them out to see what grows.  I have done some seedlings in the past and if you top-work a tree with the seedling you can get fruit in as early as 3-4 years.

I know you have done judging, cider tours in Europe and also make cider with your own apples as well as with european juice.  Honestly speaking, how do ciders with purely our varieties compare to those of dedicated european varities when you property balance sugar, acidity and +/- tannins?  Of quebec ciders the "Les Pommes Perdues" give impressions of an old world cider but when stacked side by side with something like Famille Dupont Cidre (+/- Rèserve) from France (which was one of the only french ciders I could find in Quebec/Ontario) the comparison is not particularly positive.

We in Quebec are a prime apple growing region that should be able to compete world wide with our cider and instead we have so many marginal wineries or we are doing ciders with predominantly dessert apples.  Hopefully times are changing.  Thanks again for all you have done to help with these changes.  Please keep posting a bit of a yearly review of your experience.  I do not think anyone in our climate has the diversity of producing trees as you.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 18 octobre 2021 à 16:50:25 UTC-4, Frozen North Fruit a écrit :

I know you have done judging, cider tours in Europe and also make cider with your own apples as well as with european juice.  Honestly speaking, how do ciders with purely our varieties compare to those of dedicated european varities when you property balance sugar, acidity and +/- tannins?  Of quebec ciders the "Les Pommes Perdues" give impressions of an old world cider but when stacked side by side with something like Famille Dupont Cidre (+/- Rèserve) from France (which was one of the only french ciders I could find in Quebec/Ontario) the comparison is not particularly positive.

You seem to know a lot more about me than I know about you...

Joking apart, I think Gaston's Les pommes perdues cider is one of the best we can find in Quebec. He does it with keeving which is what gives it its Old World flavor. However, I don't think we should compare it with some of the best of French ciders. In the same way as you wouldn't want to compare some of the best Spanish, German or English ciders with the Dupont or with another of these great French ciders such as Éric Bordelet, Le Père Jules, Domaine Kerveguen, François Séhédic, just to name a few... They are all very different. Each of these old world regions have their specific set of varieties that give the general character and style of the ciders made with these varieties (along with the production traditions, naturally). Here in Quebec, we don't yet have either: no well established set of cider varieties, and no production traditions. As a cider producing region, we don't want to copy a well established old world style, and hence we need to develop our own set of varieties that will with time become "traditional Quebec cider varieties". Same for production methods. And that is where the wild apples that we may select, test, propagate and grow in orchards may with time become these traditional local varieties that we lack. I think some of the imported European varieties may fill some gap but this should remain a transition period in my opinion.

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Hi Frozen North Fruits,

Very few people did long term experiments like Claude did, so I think his experiments are the only valuable for eastern Canada. There is a research project from Agriculture Canada conducted in Mirabel, Québec that tries different varieties of true cider apples. I think the project is not over yet but they do publish annual datas on productivity, juice caracteristics, etc. It might help you in your trials (in french).

https://www.agrireseau.net/documents/98893/determination-du-potentiel-cidricole-de-varietes-de-pommes-nouvelles-et-traditionnelles-adaptees-a-l_est-du-canada

I am also doing trials with cider apples. Of the true european cider apples, I am curently testing Bulmer's Norman, Yarlington mill, Muscadet de Dieppe, Maréchal, Brown Thorn, Harry Master's Jersey, Sweet Coppin and a couple more I don't recall. The trees are very young but of those, only Harry Master's Jersey seem to lack too much vigor to be considered potentially promising.

We also constituted a group of cidermaker in Gaspésie that are trying to identify the best wildings of the thousands out there and eventually, have a local pommage. It is a long shot but it is promising I think. We might some day have something to share to the cider community but the project is still too young.

Louis

[Frozen North]

Thanks Louis,

Yes I am aware of the agrireseau study.  It is just weird their focus on testing the cider is single variety when certain low acid varieties will have a pH above 4 and absolutely must be blended.  But yes, the data is very useful.

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/topic/cider-workshop/npawvaXtswM/unsubscribe.
To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/7922e664-addb-45b9-bad0-36c19d94a1a6n%40googlegroups.com.

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Yes, you are right, the datas on cider are a bit weird because of this approach. The datas on cider apple trees and juices are usefull though.