Fine tuning Ferrari corker

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

I have corked about a thousand bottles now using the Ferrari champagne corker, identical to this one:

I find it to be finicky and wonder if there are any tips out there for fine tuning and/or modifying it so that the corking will be more consistent.  

I am using  Cidrex® 45 x 27mm agglomerated cider corks from France, chamfered on both ends.  

About a third of the time, corking produces a result similar to this:

In particular, the bottom lip of the cork appears to get sheared off as it enters the bottle.  The corking - even with the sheared lip - holds pressure after applying a cage with a capper and compressing the cork adequately.  The cork on the left would work following caging.  For the other two I would need to remove the cork and start over.  

Dealing with this is time consuming and I would like to achieve more reliable corking.  It also wastes a lot of corks.

I suspect the problem is with the lock-out mechanism that holds the bottle immobile while corking.  There is often "play" of a few mm between the bottle and cork compression mechanism when it is locked out.  My theory is that this gap allows the cork to expand a bit as it is pushed out of the compression clamps, causing the lip of the cork shear as it hits the lip of the bottle.  I tried filming this in slow motion but still could not see what was really going on.

So:  

Question 1 to the cider hive mind:  Does any one else have this problem?  If I am the only one, this should be fixable.  

Question 2:  Has anyone had this problem and figured out a fix?

All advice and comments are welcome!

/Jeff

[Derek B. Noonburg]

I have the same corker, and had the same problem with champagne corks.
I actually had a bottle neck shatter while trying to insert a cork.
Luckily no one was hurt, but I won't be trying that again.

I've had good luck with Belgian beer corks, using the same corker and
the same (American) champagne (ok, sparkling wine) bottles. They
probably wouldn't hold up to full champagne carbonation pressure, but
they did fine for my cider. I believe they're just a bit smaller
diameter than champagne corks, which makes them a lot easier to insert
with a manual corker.

(Personally, I've switched to using crown caps. They're simpler and
more reliable, but I do understand they're not as attractive as corks.)

- Derek

[radfordgraham333]

Hi jeff,

I would recommend giving crown caps a go instead of corks. They honestly are so simple to install, cheap and hold pressure perfectly. I used to use swing tops but now will only use crown caps since trying them.

I know this doesn't answer your question, but I thought I'd share since I'm so happy I made the switch and I think you might benefit from trying them.

Good luck with the Corker!

Graham

Sent from my Galaxy

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 7 janvier 2022 à 15:00:00 UTC-5, jeff.k...@gmail.com a écrit :

Question 1 to the cider hive mind:  Does any one else have this problem?  If I am the only one, this should be fixable.  

I have the same corker, and never had the problem. I use 26mm agglo corks, which are 1mm smaller diameter than those you use, but I doubt this would change anything,

See http://www.cjoliprsf.ca/bouteilbouchon.htm

Seems to me you are not pushing the corks much. Maybe try to adjust the nut so they get a bit deeper?

From what you say, the bottle holder plate would not lock in place when you activate the handle. Maybe check this mechanism to see if there is some play or gap? On mine, there is no such play.

And, PS, on the suggestion to go to crown caps, yes I agree it makes the job easier, but honestly, there is nothing like the "pop" you get on opening a corked bottle... So, for the "Prestige" bottles that I make, I still prefer to cork them...

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Also, thinking about this again, which type of bottles do you use?

There is a difference between American champagne bottles, that usually take 26mm crown caps, and European ones that take 29mm caps. If you have American 26mm bottles, the inside diameter of the neck is smaller and this could cause your problem.

This corker only works well with European 29mm bottles...

[scott heath]

Hi All,

I'm happy to chime in here!  The important thing that I recently realized is that Ferrari makes a wine corker/capper and a champagne corker, and they look exactly the same in pics online, but the champagne version is indeed different!  I had been managing for a while with the regular one, having reamed out the hole a little bit to allow the cork to be extracted after insertion in the bottle. I wasn't having that problem as often as Jeff, but it was happening enough that I was getting VERY frustrated. I did another online search and was skeptical that another corker was actually going to be different, but I went ahead and got it, and WOW it was like night and day!  I could even use the stop nut on the plunger to get the correct amount of insertion, something that didn't work with the other one.  I think the key is that the champagne corker compresses the cork a little more, and it also has an attachment that positions the bottle neck in the right spot, rather than a little off-center with the other one, and it is a little larger overall. I am using standard large champagne corks, agglomerated.  I found that the belgian corks were not quite tight enough in the bottles I use, 29mm crown cap finish. I have food-grade grease and occaisionally smear a little on the inside of the jaws, too.

It looks like they are $150 from morewine.com here in the US right now. Good luck!

Scott

Tilted Shed Ciderworks

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Thanks everyone.

I agree that the crown cap is the technically superior closure.  Unfortunately, consumers associate it with beer (and beer prices) while the mushroom cork is associated with champagne (and champagne prices).  

Claude, when the corker works properly, the cork is inserted to just above the glass lip that holds the cage.  When compressed for the wire hood, the cork ends up just below this lip.  I think this is the correct depth, the problem corks I showed are not representative.  I am using bottles with 29 mm necks.  It is encouraging that you do not have this problem and I have not found complaints online, so I will continue trying to adjust my corker, starting with the locking mechanism.  

Scott, I am 99% certain my unit is for champagne corks, when the jaws are fully open I easily fit the 27 mm diameter corks. Could you post a photo of the attachment that positions the bottle in the right spot?  

If anyone else has this corker and finds it to be satisfactory, that information is also useful!  Many thanks all,

/Jeff in Sweden

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Jeff,

If you have the proper Champagne corker, it will be equipped with this spring-loaded plate under the head:

Now, for your problem, I think you need to adjust the locking mechanism by raising or lowering the blocker that you see in the following picture:

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Thanks Claude.  That is the model I have, with the spring-loaded plate under the head.

Have a look at Ferrari's official video of this corker, at about 36 seconds in: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiocun9SeTQ&t=76s

Do you use the same corking "technique"?  I am talking about the speed of corking.  In the video, the cork seems to get pushed into the bottle fairly slowly and with little resistance.  This does not work for me:  I need to use a much faster motion.  Compressing the cork and locking the bottle can be done slowly, but the last step of pushing the cork into the bottle must be done quickly.  If I try doing it like in the video, the cork just gets mashed on top of the bottle and looks like the examples I posted earlier.  I wonder if the type of cork itself may be at fault, although I did get them from a reputable firm in France.  

I have played with the locking nut and have put some spacers between the nut and the spring in an attempt to give the spring more force to hold the locking mechanism in place.  

/Jeff

[Vince Wakefield]

Would it be worth sending some of your corks to someone who has the same machine and is not having any issues to test them, you will then know if it is the corks or the machine giving you issues.

 

Cheers

Vince

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[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

That is a great idea, Vince.

If anyone has a Ferrari champagne corker that works flawlessly and who would be willing to test a couple of my corks, please let me know!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 9 janvier 2022 à 07:29:51 UTC-5, jeff.k...@gmail.com a écrit :

Do you use the same corking "technique"?  I am talking about the speed of corking.  In the video, the cork seems to get pushed into the bottle fairly slowly and with little resistance.  This does not work for me:  I need to use a much faster motion.  Compressing the cork and locking the bottle can be done slowly, but the last step of pushing the cork into the bottle must be done quickly.  If I try doing it like in the video, the cork just gets mashed on top of the bottle and looks like the examples I posted earlier. 

Yes I can do it fairly slowly without problem.

I wonder if the type of cork itself may be at fault, although I did get them from a reputable firm in France.  

I doubt the cork itself is the problem. This corker can work with champagne corks which are 30 or 31mm in diameter, hence quite bigger than your 27mm cider corks...

I have played with the locking nut and have put some spacers between the nut and the spring in an attempt to give the spring more force to hold the locking mechanism in place.  

Can you show a photo of this?

Try putting a bottle (but no cork) in it. Then complete the first part of the action (compressing the cork) up to the point it would start pushing on the cork. If at this stage if you push the bottle downwards, does it move? If so, then the lock doesn't work properly.

When at this stage, the small blocker on the rod should not touch the locking plate - there should be a small gap. If not, then position the blocker lower.

Maybe also you have excessive wear on it. Some time ago I was visiting a cider-maker friend who uses these for about 8000 bottles per year. I noticed he had 3 or 4 of them in a corner - I asked why so many, and he answered they wear-out with time...

Try dissambling it. You'll need to remove a pin under the shaft that is pring loaded to hold the bottle. Then remove this assembly and check for wear on the shaft. Also check for wear on the locking plate (the holes would have become slightly oval). If the locking plate is worn, you could try to reverse it.

[scott heath]

Hmmm, mine does not have the spring loaded plate thingy, so I can't speak to what that is doing or not doing, but I agree that it sounds like the bottle locking device is not working quite right to hold the bottle up against the jaw housing.  I can include a pic of what my adjuster looks like tomorrow when I get to the cidery. It's just a piece of plastic attached with thumb screws in slots so you can move the plastic forward or back, aligning the neck of the bottle on center with the cork.

Scott

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Well, I am stumped.

I have done everything Claude suggested, including completely disassembling, cleaning, lubricating and reassembling.  The locking device seems to work the way it should.  I try to keep my corking procedure as consistent as I can, but about a third of the corking attempts still do not work properly.  I have filmed both the corking and locking plate in slow motion repeatedly but still cannot see what is happening or why.

I just ordered a new, identical corker as well as new corks.  When it arrives, I will compare the two side-by-side and see if I can't figure out what the heck is going on.  I'll update if I ever find the solution.  

Really bugs me.  

/J

[scott heath]

Here is a pic of the bottle neck positioner that came with my new champagne corker. I tried moving it a little here and there without too much difference. I think it's supposed to prevent the cork getting caught on the edge of the bottle as it goes in, as my previous corker would do.  Like I said I have been having great success with this. I hope you can figure it out, Jeff!

Scott

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Thanks Scott.  The corker that I ordered has this bottle neck positioner.  I will post an update when it arrives and I can compare the two units side-by-side.

Can anyone post comments or recommendations on the Rapid 55C corker?  In particular, in comparison to the (much cheaper) Ferrari corker?  Is it worth the money?  

/Jeff

[Christian Stolte]

My Ferrari Champ corker works great with high quality corks like Mytik QDC-Diamant 44x26.5mm for 29mm bottles, but I had similar issues shown in your picture with cheaper corks. The Mytik corks are coated and slide in easier.

Lubing the lube the jaws with Vaseline helps.

While the Ferrari may looks a bit flimsy and is painted cheaply, it is a real work horse that I have used for a few years now.

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[gareth chapman]

Hi Christian a little off topic re the corker, but someone else recommended Mytik corks to me, could you tell me where you are sourcing them from please and what sort of carbonation levels are you holding with a 26.5mm cork, clearly enough to disgorge a frozen plug, but do you have any idea of the actual level of carbonation.

Cheers
Gareth

[Christian Stolte]

HI Gareth,

my natural carbonation after disgorging is between 1.5 and 4.

I measure using screw-on aphrometers from https://www.bacbrewing.com Italy and cork aphrometers from https://www.sabastrumentazione.com/it. Corks from https://www.kkp-1.info/weinausstattung.php

> clearly enough to disgorge a frozen plug

Bottles have a crown cap when disgorging.

With kind regards
Christian

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[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Christian:

Excellent information, much appreciated.  I have not paid any attention to the cork quality.  I just contacted KKP for a quote.

Many thanks!

Jeff

[gareth chapman]

be interested to hear the quote Jeff

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Price for between 1000-5000  1/4 Mytik Diamant 44x26.5mm corks is 166 euros.

[gareth chapman]

Brilliant thanks for sharing that

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[Wes Cherry]

Sorry if this has already been said, but having the corks wet helps a lot.   We just keep them in a bowl of water with some sanitizer next to the corker.

-'//es Cherry
w...@dragonsheadcider.com
Vashon WA, USA

On Jan 27, 2022, at 11:42 AM, gareth chapman <chappe...@gmail.com> wrote:

Brilliant thanks for sharing that

On Thu, Jan 27, 2022, 19:39 jeff.k...@gmail.com <jeff.k...@gmail.com> wrote:

Price for between 1000-5000  1/4 Mytik Diamant 44x26.5mm corks is 166 euros.

On Thursday, January 27, 2022 at 6:05:11 PM UTC+1 chappe...@gmail.com wrote:

be interested to hear the quote Jeff

On Thursday, 27 January 2022 at 10:02:07 UTC jeff.k...@gmail.com wrote:

Christian:

Excellent information, much appreciated.  I have not paid any attention to the cork quality.  I just contacted KKP for a quote.

Many thanks!

Jeff

On Wednesday, January 26, 2022 at 1:23:51 PM UTC+1 Christian Stolte wrote:

HI Gareth,

my natural carbonation after disgorging is between 1.5 and 4. 

I measure using screw-on aphrometers from https://www.bacbrewing.com Italy and cork aphrometers from https://www.sabastrumentazione.com/it. Corks fromhttps://www.kkp-1.info/weinausstattung.php

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[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Interesting.  Thanks Wes.  Is temperature a consideration?  Warm corks seem a lot softer.  Not sure if that is desirable or not.

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

I received my new Ferrari on Friday.  There is a huge difference in performance when compared to my older model - corks slide into the bottle no resistance.  

The key difference that I can see is that the lip of the bottle is directly in contact with the cork-compression jaws on the newer model.  With the older model, there is a blue metal lip between the jaws and the bottle lip.  I am attaching photos to illustrate.  You can see the blue lip at the bottom of the jaws-opening.  It has been worn through contact with the bottle lip.  The new model has a red plastic attachment to help with centering and the jaws are chrome instead of brass.  

Also, the new model compresses the cork more, which you can also see in the photos.  

I think that you could modify the older model to remove the blue lip which would improve performance by allowing the bottle to sit in direct contact with the jaws.  For the price of a Ferrari, I am not sure it would be worthwhile to do so but I thought I would mention it as a potential solution.  

/Jeff

[Christian Stolte]

No need to wet these corks, Mytik is already coated. Wetting them would just add mess and possible contamination.

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