Adding nutrients to cider

[Ray Blockley]

Decided to ask this question in a new thread and would welcome the
thoughts & experiences of others.

I hear many suggestions / as advice, to add yeast nutrients to apple
juice / fermenting cider. Not so much on this group but in many other
groups I frequent.

I've always been of the understanding that as a general rule, apple
juice contains all the nitrogenous materials the yeasts need to
survive - otherwise the desire to Keeve and so remove much of these
nutrients to ensure the yeast run out of "food" and leave residual
sugars, would be a non-starter perhaps?

I have read of apples rich in nitrogenous materials as part of their
natural character (ie in books by Liz Copas) which result in a very
fast fermentation. I have also read advice about the benefits of slow
fermentation and the (joyous?) possibility of residual sugar in ciders
made with apples from trees grown in impoverished/poor low-nutrient
soils in old neglected orchards.

So:
Is the advice to always add nutrients a hang-over from amateur
non-grape wine-making? Or is it just in pursuit of the highest ABV
possible?

Does the advice to always add nutrients (including some who suggest
always adding nutrient to the bottle when making bottle-conditioned /
sparkling cider) a cultural & geographical thing, as in my experience
this suggestion mostly seems to come from North American cider makers?

Is the best advice to leave out adding nutrients altogether - unless a
ferment seems totally stuck and inactive at an SG too high to be of
use to the individual maker and their goals?

Ray.

[Tim]

" Is the best advice to leave out adding nutrients altogether"

IMHO, Yes.

Tim in Dorset

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/11/2015 09:21, Ray Blockley wrote:

>
> So: Is the advice to always add nutrients a hang-over from amateur
> non-grape wine-making? Or is it just in pursuit of the highest ABV
> possible?

I have been making cider (some prize-winning) with wild yeasts and no
nutrients for 20+ years. When I was at Long Ashton Research Station in
the 1970's and 80's we used cultured yeasts but no nutrients (except in
rare cases to remedy 'sticking'), and our commercial ciders were
renowned. I personally regard addition of nutrients in craft cidermaking
as unnecessary except in unusual circumstances, such as a sticking
fermentation from low nutrient fruit where full fermentation to dryness
is required. (In factory cidermaking it's quite different, I should say).

I think in part you are right that some of it is a hangover from making
'country wines', at least here in the UK. But also I think a lot of it
nowadays comes from what the wine schools in the US and Australia are
instructing. They teach fast uninterrupted temperature controlled
fermentations with cultured yeasts, and under those conditions nutrients
are often required to get the yeasts to perform well and to deliver
against objectives. Many cultured wine yeasts have high nutrient
demands. So if you come from that background there is a heavy emphasis
on knowing and controlling YAN (yeast available nitrogen) levels. That
spills over into cidermaking.

If you want a cider fermented to dryness in 2 - 4 weeks as many people
seem to expect, then nutrients are your friend. But I question why any
craft maker should want to do so. I am happy with a 4 month fermentation
- after all, what else would I do with the time I otherwise save? My
cider is seasonal, I can only make it once a year. I'm not starting a
new batch from concentrate and glucose every fortnight. But if I were,
I'd be shovelling in the nitrogen and vitamins to get the speed and ABV
that my bean-counters would demand. Fortunately I'm not in that position.

One other area where nutrients can be useful is in minimising H2S
formation. This is a hugely complicated topic and is by no means only
down to nutrient levels - much of it depends on yeast genetics too, and
the interaction between the two. Ironically, many cultured wine yeasts
do demand high nutrient levels to suppress H2S formation (but not all eg
AWRI 350). Equally ironically, and against what is often quoted as
'received wisdom', I have never had a problem with H2S production using
wild yeasts. But that may be due to the slow fermentation which allows
the H2S produced (and there certainly is noticeable H2S mid-ferment) to
be re-absorbed by the yeast at the end stages of fermentation. So for me
it's more to do with fermentation management than nutrient need.

Those are my thoughts FWIW. Glad you opened the topic Ray!

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

Thank you Andrew for that detailed explanation. As always, live &
learn, as the question of the formation of H2S had not occurred to me.
Another school day! :-)

I did wonder how much of the "turbo-yeast" / "ready to drink by
Christmas / Thanksgiving / etc" was a factor in the recommendation for
the "normal" use of nutrients... Perhaps my "old school" head filters
out such "cider kit" style practices?

I have only ever used nutrients & B1 tablets in home-made wines from
very low nutrient materials - I've never thought of adding them to
apple juice for cider.

Thanks!

Ray.

> --
> --
> Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"
> Google Group.
> By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please
> see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
> To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Nathan Shackelford]

Of course, Andrew has covered all the relevant points.
I can verify that "where this comes from" is a winemaking/beermaking perspective. In my experience brewing beer is generally an impatient practice, myself included. There is a myth that apple juice doesn't require the necessary nutrients like malted barley does.

When I started making cider I had the perspective (from homebrewing) that a fast and furious fermentation was best, and adding yeast nutrients was part of that equation. There were many "recipes" for making cider on internet forums, and most of them included nutrients, juice concentrate or sugar, etc.

It took me a while to realize that only stressed yeast expressing sulphur was really showing a need for nutrients. Now I rarely add any, and only the tiniest pinch to clean up some sulphury odors (which may not even be necessary). This is recommended in Ben Watson's book on cidermaking, and most recent North American books don't include as much emphasis on nutrients if they are using traditional methods. My natural ferments have not needed any extra help.

[Wes Cherry]

I got tired of having ciders taste like cabbage and farts.     

I have had H2S problems with cider made from apples from fertilized commercial orchard fruit as well as from neglected old trees.   I have had AWRI-350 generate H2S with commercial fruit (though that could have been lees breakdown, I’m not sure.   It sat on the lees for a ~three weeks before I got around to racking it).

In my experience, H2S doesn’t go away, it only polymerizes into mercaptans and disulfides.   

Table 1 - Reported Sensory Thresholds for Sulfide Compounds
compound	structure	sensory description	range (ppb)
hydrogen sulfide	H2S	rotten egg, sewage-like	0.9 - 1.5
ethyl mercaptan	CH3CH2SH	burnt match, sulfidy, earthy	1.1 - 1.8
methyl mercaptan	CH3SH	rotten cabbage, burnt rubber	1.5
diethyl sulfide	CH3CH2SCH2CH3	rubbery	0.9 - 1.3
dimethyl sulfide	CH3SCH3	canned corn, cooked cabbage, asparagus, vegetal	17 - 25
diethyl disulfide	CH3CH2SSCH2CH3	garlic, burnt rubber	3.6 - 4.3
dimethyl disulfide	CH3SSCH3	vegetal, cabbage, onion-like at high levels	9.8 - 10.2

Do any of these seem like a good contribution to cider flavor?     I taste cabbage/grassy/asparagus in a fair number of commercial ciders, especially ones that come over from the UK and France.

Most of the sulfide compounds have lower thresholds than H2S, so they seem like they go away.  However, in a reductive environment in a bottle they can reduce back (to methyl mercaptan, with a low threshold, yielding that cabbage flavor.    One amazing perry I got from the UK had retch inducing from the sewer aromas — I couldn’t get it past my lips.   After a week oxidizing half empty in the fridge, that thankfully went away, revealing a fairly enjoyable perry (with some vegetal notes…)

Cider making is really the same as white wine making.   In the US, at least, feeding yeast is commonplace in professional wine making.  

I use Fermaid-O, which is autolyzed yeast cells, without any added DAP.   Sometimes hard DAP additions can stress yeast and make for H2S production.   Once I started using that - 20g/hL at end of lag and 20g/hL at 1/3 sugar depletion, H2S has never reared it’s ugly head.   (Note, you should also use GoFerm if you use Fermaid-O instead of Fermaid-K.   GoFerm provides micronutrients during yeast rehydration).

Fermaid-O is cheap insurance — it costs about $15 to feed 1000 liters.  (Fermaid K is even cheaper — $4/1000L).

Ideally, one should test YAN levels before adding nutrients, but in practice, assuming apple juice has nearly zero YAN works ok.   When using organic nutrients like Fermaid-O, the yeast population grows to use the excess nitrogen.  When those yeast cells die, that nitrogen drops with them as lees, so you don’t have a N rich cider that could potentially feed spoilage organisms.

I’m now doing more than 1/2 of my batches wild.   Use of Fermaid-O has carried over.   This year, I plan on doing a side by side comparison of a fed and unfed wild ferment.   Hopefully my wild yeast strain isn’t one that requires high N.  

And I’m not in a hurry.   The earliest timeframe between apple to bottle is 6 months for me.

-Wes

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/11/2015 18:09, Wes Cherry wrote:


> I taste cabbage/grassy/asparagus in a fair number of commercial ciders,
> especially ones that come over from the UK and France.

Your remarks are very interesting Wes. Would you say this is a common
observation by US cidermakers about European samples? (I recall another
respected US cidermaker, not in your area and not on this list, who has
said much the same thing to me).

If so, it would imply a degree of cultural difference in what a cider
should be? Maybe over here we are just more tolerant / welcoming of
reduced sulphur notes as part of what a cider is? They can certainly be
present to excess on occasion here (both H2S and drainy mercaptans), but
perhaps the levels which we would regard as beneficial and contributory
here would be regarded as offensive to you?

It reminds me a bit of the 'zero tolerance' for ethyl phenols (aka
"Bretty") in the New World wine making community. Here in Europe we are
much more accepting of such things, to a degree at least, and regard
them as contributing complexity. Do you suppose the same is true of
reduced sulphur compounds?

[Ray Blockley]

Interesting. In my decades of drinking cider in the UK & Europe, I've only come across a couple that smelled of cabbage & farts.  I know what cabbage tastes like but I have never "tasted" a fart...

Ray. 

[Alexander Peckham]

I suspect that there is a cultural component to this discussion but also an environmental one.   At harvest time here (certainly for the earlier apples) the weather is quite warm and juice can start at around 18C.    At that temperature, ferment (inoculated and wild) tend to go quite fast (as little as a week).    At this rate yeast do run out of nutrients and get stressed which brings with it a variety of undesirable flavours, primarily related to sulphides.   I suspect - and would like to here Andrew's view on this - that at lower temperatures there is a certain amount of nutrients recycling between yeast generations which keep things ticking along more smoothly.   Adding nutrients however is not a magic bullet and I have tried many different approaches to this and am still trying to find a really reliable addition strategy where I feel that one is needed.  Every time I think I have it nailed, the next batch reacts differently to the addition. I stay clear of DAP and use products similar to Wes's Fermaid.

As for the cultural difference, I recently brought back some UK ciders and had a tasting with NZ friends who found many of them challenging - I thought that they were fantastic.

Cheers,

Alex

[Jason MacArthur]

I'll chime in here, seconding Wes's experience with cabbagy/ vegetal ciders being far too easy to make.  As a small commercial cider maker, I cannot afford to let a batch of cider become sulfide stew, and I have had too many of them do this.  In my case I doubt the primary difference is cultural- most of my sulfidy ciders are not subtle about it.

 

I have had problems with a variety of supposedly reliable yeast strains over the years, and I too now use Fermaid O.  I wish this were not so, as I do feel that very slow fermentations make the best ciders, but I don't feel I can afford to gamble.  

Intriguingly, I have had more sulfur related issues with cider from fruit I suspect to be higher in Nitrogen- big juicy dessert apples- than cider made from true cider apples or from apples foraged from abandoned trees.  I don't test for YAN so I cannot correlate my observations to specific data, but that has certainly been my experience.  

Jason

[Wes Cherry]

There’s something about the cider flavor profile that makes brett and volatile acidity sometimes welcome.  Bittersweet based ciders can do well with some old horse (4-EP) or clove/spice (4-EG).   And high acid dessert based ciders can be be made more interesting and complex with VA.   

In wines, I find both 4-EP Brett and VA much above sensory thresholds objectionable — I think both clash with wine flavors.   Clove/spice from 4-EG can be good in reds though.

Bretty and high VA ciders definitely have their fans in the US.  Those fans tend to come from the beer world where sour and bretty beers have recently been embraced.

Troy cider is an excellent example of a "flawed" cider, full of brett and VA, that wrapped together makes for a wonderful cider

http://www.troycider.com/

I’ve never enjoyed H2S and it’s foul smelling friends in any drink.  Sulfur isn’t all bad though —The aromatic thiols which give passion fruit, quava and grapefruit flavors to some wines (and ciders?) are welcome.   Their expression isn’t via stressed malnourished yeast, nor through H2S, AFAIK.

-Wes

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com

You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop"  Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
--- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send an email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Dougal]

I have had many women tasters not get past the nose of a West Country cider; they refused to even taste!

I have changed my view a lot in the last couple of years.  Cider fruit definitely add flavour volume and flavour interest but they can just as easily be used to make a clean, fruity New World cider as a heavy, farmyardy West Country cider.  Our collective tastes in NZ are for clean, bright, sweetish beverages and I don't see why we should go against the grain to be 'authentic'.  I am really excited to be working to develop a regional style of our own that best represents the fruit's potential and the (discerning) punters' taste buds.

I retain Knotted Kernel and Yarlington Mill for some deeper ciders but I am excited by what the likes of Dabinett and Nehou are doing when paired with some of the old heritage apples.  Kept medium-dry, their ciders are wonderfully fruity and tangy without being acidic.

We, too, keep away from DAP.

[Andrew Lea]

In summary, we seem to have a view that the key function of nutrients is to reduce H2S and similar taints, and that organic sources eg Fermaid O are preferable to inorganic eg DAP. There does also seem to be a geographical bias to this, in that New World makers find sulphidic taints to be a problem whereas we in the Old World generally don't. This may be down to an acceptance of cultural norms or it may be some other biochemical factor.

At the risk of hijacking the thread, I was just wondering about the role of oxygen exposure in all this. Here in the UK, fermentation in stainless is unusual by small producers because of its expense, and many craft makers will be using various forms and sizes of plastic or even wooden tanks both to ferment and often to store. These tanks are slightly air permeable, not necessarily enough to give overt oxidation problems but maybe enough to oxidise away the sulphide taints at the end of fermentation? (By analogy, I am put in mind of the reductive aromas which plagued the original introduction of Stelvin type wine bottle closures after generations of permeable cork).

Would I be right in thinking that you chaps who have problems with sulphidic and cabbagey taints are using stainless containers for fermentation and storage of your ciders?

Andrew

[Ray Blockley]

Interesting that as Andrew points out, there appears to be an Old
World / New World slant on this, which tends to explain my
observations of advice given in cidermaking groups.

As a commercial cidermaker myself, but not based in the "West Country"
and not a maker of "West Country Style" ciders, I haven't come across
the farmyard / sewer / etc taints in my own stuff. I don't use S/Steel
but do use HDPE.

I have however, known folks at festivals & tastings here in the Old
World, revel in the "farmyard" nose of a cider...

Ray.

[Andrew Lea]

On 09/11/2015 19:41, Alexander Peckham wrote:

> I suspect - and would like
> to here Andrew's view on this - that at lower temperatures there is a
> certain amount of nutrients recycling between yeast generations which
> keep things ticking along more smoothly.

I don't have a view, only what I can read in the wine literature like
anyone else. Soluble nitrogen drops to a minimum as cell numbers
increase, but then increases again due to autolysis / excretion of amino
acids as fermentation progresses. I think this is fairly much accepted.
For instance, Ron Jackson's Wine Science 4th ed figure 7.38 shows just
that effect, and also shows that the lower the temperature the flatter
the curve which is I think what you mean? There is also very old Long
Ashton cider data from 1948, long before the days of cultured yeast,
which implies much the same thing.

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[Wes Cherry]

Would I be right in thinking that you chaps who have problems with sulphidic and cabbagey taints are using stainless containers for fermentation and storage of your ciders?

The H2S problems I have had in the past have occurred in plastic IBCs and 55 gallon plastic barrels.

I try to get all the cider into stainless by May or June.   Past that and oxidative effects start taking their toll on the cider.   I hate acetaldehyde almost as much as H2S!

Stressed yeast can lead to H2S, but I wonder if stressed yeast might also yield positive cider characteristics.   There is a lot of anecdotal evidence for this from the low-n-slow crowd.   Or the multiple autolysis of multiple generations of yeast in low nutrient ciders may liberate positive compounds.     Has any science been done in this arena?   

Also, vitamin deficiencies in pantothenate and B6 can lead to H2S production.   Might it be sufficient to add just these vitamins to low nutrient or even keeved ciders for lessened H2S?

-Wes
Sent from my iPad

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/11/2015 16:31, Wes Cherry wrote:
>
>> Would I be right in thinking that you chaps who have problems with
>> sulphidic and cabbagey taints are using stainless containers for
>> fermentation and storage of your ciders?
>
> The H2S problems I have had in the past have occurred in plastic IBCs
> and 55 gallon plastic barrels.
>
> I try to get all the cider into stainless by May or June.

Oh that's much what I do on a hobby scale too (with no perceived H2S
problem). Plastic followed by stainless. Knocks that idea on the head then!

>
> Stressed yeast can lead to H2S, but I wonder if stressed yeast might
> also yield positive cider characteristics. There is a lot of anecdotal
> evidence for this from the low-n-slow crowd. Or the multiple autolysis
> of multiple generations of yeast in low nutrient ciders may liberate
> positive compounds. Has any science been done in this arena?

I think as you say it's mostly anecdotal, some of it dating back to the
1940's, though many of us believe it! Most of the published flavour work
in recent years has been done on fast commercial fermentations, not on
low-n-slow. Although there has been some French flavour work on keeved
ciders, it's not comparative AFAIR.

>
> Also, vitamin deficiencies in pantothenate and B6 can lead to H2S
> production. Might it be sufficient to add just these vitamins to low
> nutrient or even keeved ciders for lessened H2S?

We tend to focus on thiamin simply because of its ability to eliminate
sticking, but an old Long Ashton recommendation for vitamin addition to
cider juice pre-fermentation also included pantothenate, pyridoxine and
biotin. Although I have quoted it myself in print I didn't cite the
source and now I have forgotten its origin! Maybe that's what the
Fermaid gives you?

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK

[Claude Jolicoeur]

This question of nutrient addition certainly is a very complex one, and it seems no one really understand what causes the H2S problems, but we do have some rules of thumb on how to avoid it...

I can see 2 schools of thought on the nutrients management:
- The "Keep the yeast happy" group will try to keep the yeast well fed with nutrients such as Fermaid and this seems to solve the problem that some like Wes have had. This is backed by the suppliers of eonological stuff (like Scott Labs) and by some research. Generally used by commercial New World style cider makers.
- The "Make the yeast struggle" approach is the traditional old world method, with low temperature, sometimes keeving and/or rackings, all this being aimed at reducing the nutrients, the yeast population, and the fermentation speed. Many hobbyists use this approach, as well as most French craft commercial cider makers.

These 2 approaches, when well done, seem to work for the people that use them, with no significant amount of H2S produced.

What can be the cause?
The apples maybe? Many New World producers use eating apples, which may contain more nitrogen than cider apples.
Could it be that there may be some sulfur on the apple skins, sulfur being used for scab control in organic orchards?
The yeast strain - we know that some cultured strains are more prone to H2S production.
The tank size - could larger tank sizes be more prone to H2S production? (This could explain that hobbyists don't get it as often)

My personal intuition (be warned this isn't backed by any scientific research) is that H2S may be more likely to be produced if we let a large yeast population grow during the beginning of the fermentation and then become stressed because of a lack of nutrients.

For example, one starts the fermentation in a nutrient-rich juice at relatively high temperature: the yeast population grows rapidly using the available nitrogen and we can see an initial high speed of fermentation. If then there is a lack of nutrients, this large population becomes stressed and produces H2S in large quantity. To overcome this problem, the cider makers will add nutrients when 1/3 or 1/2 of the sugars are fermented, and this seems to solve the problem.

On the other hand, by following the "Make the yeast struggle" approach, we never get such a high yeast population. Hence the yeast would not be affected as much when the nutrient level decreases as fermentation proceeds. And since the yeast population can easily be 10 times less than in the first case, the quantity of H2S eventually produced would also be much less and more likely to be unnoticed by the cider maker.

Claude

[Alexander Peckham]

The oxygen question  is interesting.

I support Wes's view that H2S production can be as much an issue here in IBCs and Oak as stainless.   

Winemakers routinely aerate fermenting wines that are producing H2S during the first half of ferment.   I have tried this with cider and advise against it - for me it changes simple H2S into more complex sulphides that are harder to deal with and leads to other negative flavour changes that I can't identify.  It is possible that new world cider makers are using less traditional rack and cloth presses with aerate the juice?

I have participated in quite a few threads about sulphides on this forum.  There is more sulphide tolerance in England that the new world but as a fan of many English ciders, I don't feel that this explains the recurrence of questions relating to sulphides on the forum from new world cider makers.  I suspect that temperature is probably the key, with lower temperature ferments giving more time for lower levels of H2S production to volatilize and some nutrient recycling taking place. 

What ambient temperatures do you experience during ferments Wes and is there a  difference between the behaviour of early and late ferments?  Also how are you making your nutrient additions - one a third the way through?   Three split additions after 2 days, a third and two thirds the way through?

Alex

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

Just as an FYI, Scots Lab has a nice Cidermakers guide (of course using their products) but its nice to see the real professional recomendations vs guesses by people on the net using teaspoons to measure everything. WVMJ

[Chris Schmidt]

Here is one of their two pdf manuals that i use to help me with my limited scientific knowledge of yeast magic

On Nov 10, 2015, at 3:14 PM, WV Mountaineer Jack <wvm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as an FYI, Scots Lab has a nice Cidermakers guide (of course using their products) but its nice to see the real professional recomendations vs guesses by people on the net using teaspoons to measure everything. WVMJ

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.

[Chris Schmidt]

Direct link for download of Scott labs cider handbook manual:

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2013.pdf

On Nov 10, 2015, at 3:14 PM, WV Mountaineer Jack <wvm...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just as an FYI, Scots Lab has a nice Cidermakers guide (of course using their products) but its nice to see the real professional recomendations vs guesses by people on the net using teaspoons to measure everything. WVMJ

[Wes Cherry]

Newer 2015 editions of the Fermentation Handbook and the Cider Handbook are here:

http://www.scottlab.com/

Direct downloads:

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/ScottLabsHandbook2015.pdf

http://www.scottlab.com/pdf/2015CiderHandbook.pdf

The older cider handbooks had a lot of material cribbed from the main handbook.   This new edition has more content customized for cider.

-Wes

[Wes Cherry]

Alex, 

What ambient temperatures do you experience during ferments Wes and is there a  difference between the behaviour of early and late ferments?  Also how are you making your nutrient additions - one a third the way through?   Three split additions after 2 days, a third and two thirds the way through?

We have a wet marine climate with a significant oceanic moderation of extreme temperatures.   Ambient temperatures here are very similar to those in SW England and NW France.  

Temperature data here:

http://www.usclimatedata.com/climate/seattle/washington/united-states/uswa0395

This fall has been exceptionally warm, so many of the early ferments have finished.    

I haven’t seen a difference in H2S production vs ambient temp, but my sample size is small.   H2S is largely a thing of the past for me, now that I use Fermaid O.   

I currently have one stinky in-progress ferment which is using Epernay 2 (Cotes de Blanc) yeast which got it’s first feeding of Fermaid yesterday.   forgot to sniff it today to see if the H2S abated.

I make two additions of nutrients.   Half at end of lag, half at ~1/3 the way thru sugar.   

-Wes

(I’m not a big fan of Cotes de Blanc yeast — I’m not getting a a lot of the promised ester production…This is it’s last chance before I eliminate it as a yeast to use)

[Jeff Beem-Miller]

There have been a few (somewhat) recent publications about the impact of local growing conditions and juice profiles that may be expected from cider must in Upstate NY, USA, that seem relevant to this thread. A major finding is to recommend adding YAN to juice pre-ferment (see the attached document).

This is a question I've thought about every year for the past half-decade or so. I am very much an amateur, but passionate about the science and the art of cider making. The past couple years I've increased my production to make about 90 gallons for friends and family, but in about half of it I noted a detectable, though not overwhelming, rubber-like off flavor. This could be to over-warm fermentation temps, but I'm usually careful not to go above 20 C, and try to keep things around 18 C. I've suspected low YAN, but have been reluctant to jump to yeast nutrient, because otherwise I've had great success, and I happen to enjoy "Old World" flavors in my cider. By way of disclaimer, usually add sulfite to only a small percentage of my juice, but I pitch a very healthy starter of cultivated yeast. So, I do wonder if this could be a YAN deficiency issue.

[jim gerlach]

Claude, I've noticed similar relationships. I'm generally a cold and slow fermenter and light feeder. For The last two seasons fruit has ripened early, with warm, autumn temps, so some fermentations have been quick and I've added nutrients a bit more. However the yeasts that I typically use in cold and slow ferments haven't performed as well in richer, warmer fermentations (15-18C). I've been using Epernay 2 (and similar), with the early batches having some H2S, turbidity and generally less character.  However, the current batches started once temps dropped (10-12C) are steadily fermenting with great fruit aromas and nice clarity.

I think it is worthwhile to have both tools in the kit to be able to adjust for seasonal variability. At least for those of us in drafty old barns. 

Jim Gerlach

Western Washington US