The "Virginia Crab" Identity Crisis

[Dieter Höller]

Hi everyone,

I’m writing from Austria, where I’ve been building up a cider orchard with what I thought were some of the most iconic North American varieties. Among them is "Virginia Crab", which I was excited to have as a centerpiece for my cider. I honestly thought I might be the first or one of the few in Europe to grow it for cider.

However, after diving into recent research, it seems I’ve fallen victim to the "Identity Crisis" of this variety. It turns out that what has been circulating in many nurseries as "Virginia Crab" (often PI 589324) is actually the triploid 'Foster' variety – a vigorous, disease-resistant tree (probably brought to Europe as a rootstock or interstem in trials), but genetically distinct from the diploid 'Hughes’ Virginia Crab' (the true Hewe’s).

Even the trees at Jefferson’s Monticello were apparently 'Foster' all along! I have a few questions for the collective wisdom of this group:

1. Is anyone here certain they have the "True" Hughes/Hewe’s Virginia Crab (the diploid, aromatic, high-sugar one)? If so, where did your scionwood originate?
2. What is the consensus on 'Foster'? Now that I realized I likely have the "wrong" version, should I be disappointed? Has anyone actually made a single-varietal cider from 'Foster' (PI 589324)? Does it contribute anything meaningful in terms of tannins or aromatics?
3. Is the "Foster" version still worth a spot in a craft cider orchard, or is it effectively just a wild crab with a fancy name?

I’m a bit gutted to find out my "historic" centerpiece isn't that historic after all. I’d love to hear if others have encountered this and if there’s a reliable way to source the true 'Hughes' within Europe now.

Cheers,
Dieter

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I had heard of this, but not of the "Foster" name.

My Virginia was obtained from Tom Butford in 2010. Tom was an orchardist and apple expert in Virginia. He is probably the person who dissimated this cultivar to cider makers all around North America. And I think his stock is the same as in the Jefferson Monticello orchard.

Tom also has a good part of "responsibility" for the revival of the Harrison apple by the way...

In 2022, I had my Virginia tested for DNA by Paul Kron of the University of Guelph. He sent me the following in an email email:

"“Virgina Crab”. I have tested a number of samples from Canada and the US labelled one of the following: ‘Hewe’s Crab”, ‘Hewe’s Virginia Crab’, or ‘Virgina Crab’. They have all been triploid and all have the same genotype (including yours). However, there is a bit of a complexity. Here is a summary:
According to the attached 1936 paper, ‘Virginia crab’ is actually a distinct variety from ‘Hewes’, and that ‘Virginia Crab’ is an offspring of ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. ‘Virginia Crab’ is triploid. This is very interesting, because it would make sense that ‘Virginia Crab’ is a triploid while ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’ is diploid, because triploids typically arise from diploid parents. If they are distinct, as this paper says, and not interchangeable names for the same cultivar, then it raises the strong possibility that your trees, and the Ontario one I mentioned, are ‘Virginia Crab’, not ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. Triploids labelled ‘Hewes’ may be incorrectly labelled."

And he added in another email:

"I noticed that in Dan Bussey’s book, ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’ and ‘Virginia Crab’ are treated as distinct, and it is noted that ‘Virginia Crab’ appeared in an orchard of ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. This is consistent with the 1936 paper, although Dan’s book doesn’t mention ploidies. I think over the years people have become sloppy about the distinction."

So this makes a clear distinction between a diploid Hewes crab, and a triploid Virginia crab. With the latter being by far the most frequently seen, and probably being an offspring of the Hewes.

Now this is the first time I hear about the name Foster. But this obviously comes from further work conducted by the team of Gregory Peck. I imagine that Cameron Peace could also have been involved in this.

In any case, you can be pretty sure that the Virginia that you have is the same as the Virginia used by the US cider makers, and by Thomes Jefferson himself... So it is certainly not denuded of historical value. Plus it does have some merit for cider making, otherwise cider makers would not use it.

As of the original diploid Hewes, from most sources, no one alive has ever seen it for sure, or identified it. 

[Gloria Bell]

I'm sure there are many of us now wondering.  My VHC doesn't match up to what I would say I had read about historically but does seem to closely mirror others photos.  Perhaps Dieter and Claude and others can post a photo of their HC or VHC.  I ordered mine from Whiffletree in Ontario, Canada.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I have sent wood to Whiffletree... Not sure for Virgivia, but it is very possible. So it may very well be that yours originally came from me...

[Dieter Höller]

@Claude Thanks for your insights! According to Peck (Foster's) Virginia Crab is an offspring of Malus 'Manchurian' and an unknown parent, so it's probably not an offspring of 'Hewe's'. How did you conclude that Jefferson used the 'Foster's' variety? Isn't it possible they planted it after he died in Monticello?

@Gloria I grafted mine two years ago, so I can't share photos of the fruit yet. All I know is that the buds are pretty big and distinct from other apple trees. Could you elaborate on the differences between your Virginia Crab and what you read about the historically famous (Hewe's) Virginia Crab?

I wonder when the confusion between the two varieties began. According to Peck's paper, 'Hewe's' originated in the early 1700s, while 'Foster's' probably originated 100 years later. Many historical mentions date back to the 1800s, where both varieties could have existed (see picture below). Maybe 'Foster's' is actually the better and more famous cider apple. 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 17 février 2026 à 02:22:40 UTC-5, Dieter Höller a écrit :

@Claude Thanks for your insights! According to Peck (Foster's) Virginia Crab is an offspring of Malus 'Manchurian' and an unknown parent, so it's probably not an offspring of 'Hewe's'. How did you conclude that Jefferson used the 'Foster's' variety? Isn't it possible they planted it after he died in Monticello?

Well, we have some reports that the triploïd Virginia appeared in a Hewes orchard, and another publication saying it is an offspring of it. Hence that "unknown parent" as reported from the DNA analysis could very well be the diploïd Hewes. Now, since there is no known tree in existance of the Hewes, it's DNA signature is not in the database, so any offspring from it would be considered as having an unknown parent. This is not a proof, but it is not impossible either.

As of Jefferson, it is well documented that he used Virginia for making his cider in Monticello. If he would have had the original diploïd Hewes at that time, it means that all these Hewes trees would have died and replaced by the triploïd Virginia. I think this is highly improbable. When replacing a tree in an orchard, you'd probably make sure you use original wood to graft the new tree. And let's imagine he would have replaced a few dead Hewes trees with Virginia, when those started fruiting, he would have noted the difference.

 

[Dieter Höller]

Claude Jolicoeur schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Februar 2026 um 15:01:13 UTC+1:

Well, we have some reports that the triploïd Virginia appeared in a Hewes orchard, and another publication saying it is an offspring of it. Hence that "unknown parent" as reported from the DNA analysis could very well be the diploïd Hewes. Now, since there is no known tree in existance of the Hewes, it's DNA signature is not in the database, so any offspring from it would be considered as having an unknown parent. This is not a proof, but it is not impossible either.

Fair enough! Could you please share these publications, if possible?

 

As of Jefferson, it is well documented that he used Virginia for making his cider in Monticello. If he would have had the original diploïd Hewes at that time, it means that all these Hewes trees would have died and replaced by the triploïd Virginia. I think this is highly improbable. When replacing a tree in an orchard, you'd probably make sure you use original wood to graft the new tree. And let's imagine he would have replaced a few dead Hewes trees with Virginia, when those started fruiting, he would have noted the difference.

After Jefferson died in 1826, the new owners of Monticello removed apple trees (I don't know how many) to plant other species. Restoration of the gardens began in 1938, and the north orchard was only restored in 1992 by Tom Burford and Peter Hatch. It’s easy to imagine that original Hewe’s trees were lost during that long period of neglect. After all, Jefferson had 100 trees of his favorite variety, ‘Taliaferro,’ and it still got lost.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mar. 17 févr. 2026 à 10:16, Dieter Höller a écrit :

Fair enough! Could you please share these publications, if possible?

One is Dan Bussey's book : https://www.jakkawpress.com/book/the-illustrated-history-of-apples-in-the-united-states-and-canada

The other is a 1936 publication that Paul Kron refered to in his email, but I didn't keep it.

 After Jefferson died in 1826, the new owners of Monticello cut down apple trees (I don't know how many) to make room for other plantings. Restoration of the gardens began in 1938. The north orchard was restored in 1992 by Tom Burford and Peter Hatch. It's easy to imagine that original Hewe's got lost in this long period of neglect. After all, Jefferson had 100 trees of his favourite apple variety 'Taliaferro' and it still got lost.

OK... it is possible then that the replacement may be different... But still, I would imagine that Tom used stock from old near-by trees, that could have been of the same variety than those originally at Monticello. But only speculating here...

[Alex Kroh]

I think an interesting question to ask at this point is:

Has anyone ever had a Virginia or Hewes Crab cider that was remarkable? 

I for one have tried various single varietals and blends and haven’t found them to be remarkable beyond the historical bit. They were good, but to my palate not really exceptional. I think the claim that “they have merit otherwise cider makers would not use them” is a bit generous. Given their historical reputation, of course people planted these trees in an attempt to create great cider. And, then, once the fruit appeared, of course they continued to use it despite a potential lack of great cider making qualities compared to similar crabs or high acid apples. I mean, sure they could be top grafted to some other variety, but the industry is too young to dismiss the marketing value and lore of such a documented varietal. 

Perhaps a poll is in order to see whether folks really think this apple (the true one or otherwise) is better than say Ashmeads Kernel, or Puget Spice, or any wild crab that someone has selected. I love a bit of history, but maybe it’s time to retire the esteem for this apple?