The "Virginia Crab" Identity Crisis

[Dieter Höller]

Hi everyone,

I’m writing from Austria, where I’ve been building up a cider orchard with what I thought were some of the most iconic North American varieties. Among them is "Virginia Crab", which I was excited to have as a centerpiece for my cider. I honestly thought I might be the first or one of the few in Europe to grow it for cider.

However, after diving into recent research, it seems I’ve fallen victim to the "Identity Crisis" of this variety. It turns out that what has been circulating in many nurseries as "Virginia Crab" (often PI 589324) is actually the triploid 'Foster' variety – a vigorous, disease-resistant tree (probably brought to Europe as a rootstock or interstem in trials), but genetically distinct from the diploid 'Hughes’ Virginia Crab' (the true Hewe’s).

Even the trees at Jefferson’s Monticello were apparently 'Foster' all along! I have a few questions for the collective wisdom of this group:

1. Is anyone here certain they have the "True" Hughes/Hewe’s Virginia Crab (the diploid, aromatic, high-sugar one)? If so, where did your scionwood originate?
2. What is the consensus on 'Foster'? Now that I realized I likely have the "wrong" version, should I be disappointed? Has anyone actually made a single-varietal cider from 'Foster' (PI 589324)? Does it contribute anything meaningful in terms of tannins or aromatics?
3. Is the "Foster" version still worth a spot in a craft cider orchard, or is it effectively just a wild crab with a fancy name?

I’m a bit gutted to find out my "historic" centerpiece isn't that historic after all. I’d love to hear if others have encountered this and if there’s a reliable way to source the true 'Hughes' within Europe now.

Cheers,
Dieter

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I had heard of this, but not of the "Foster" name.

My Virginia was obtained from Tom Butford in 2010. Tom was an orchardist and apple expert in Virginia. He is probably the person who dissimated this cultivar to cider makers all around North America. And I think his stock is the same as in the Jefferson Monticello orchard.

Tom also has a good part of "responsibility" for the revival of the Harrison apple by the way...

In 2022, I had my Virginia tested for DNA by Paul Kron of the University of Guelph. He sent me the following in an email email:

"“Virgina Crab”. I have tested a number of samples from Canada and the US labelled one of the following: ‘Hewe’s Crab”, ‘Hewe’s Virginia Crab’, or ‘Virgina Crab’. They have all been triploid and all have the same genotype (including yours). However, there is a bit of a complexity. Here is a summary:
According to the attached 1936 paper, ‘Virginia crab’ is actually a distinct variety from ‘Hewes’, and that ‘Virginia Crab’ is an offspring of ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. ‘Virginia Crab’ is triploid. This is very interesting, because it would make sense that ‘Virginia Crab’ is a triploid while ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’ is diploid, because triploids typically arise from diploid parents. If they are distinct, as this paper says, and not interchangeable names for the same cultivar, then it raises the strong possibility that your trees, and the Ontario one I mentioned, are ‘Virginia Crab’, not ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. Triploids labelled ‘Hewes’ may be incorrectly labelled."

And he added in another email:

"I noticed that in Dan Bussey’s book, ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’ and ‘Virginia Crab’ are treated as distinct, and it is noted that ‘Virginia Crab’ appeared in an orchard of ‘Hewes Virginia Crab’. This is consistent with the 1936 paper, although Dan’s book doesn’t mention ploidies. I think over the years people have become sloppy about the distinction."

So this makes a clear distinction between a diploid Hewes crab, and a triploid Virginia crab. With the latter being by far the most frequently seen, and probably being an offspring of the Hewes.

Now this is the first time I hear about the name Foster. But this obviously comes from further work conducted by the team of Gregory Peck. I imagine that Cameron Peace could also have been involved in this.

In any case, you can be pretty sure that the Virginia that you have is the same as the Virginia used by the US cider makers, and by Thomes Jefferson himself... So it is certainly not denuded of historical value. Plus it does have some merit for cider making, otherwise cider makers would not use it.

As of the original diploid Hewes, from most sources, no one alive has ever seen it for sure, or identified it. 

[Gloria Bell]

I'm sure there are many of us now wondering.  My VHC doesn't match up to what I would say I had read about historically but does seem to closely mirror others photos.  Perhaps Dieter and Claude and others can post a photo of their HC or VHC.  I ordered mine from Whiffletree in Ontario, Canada.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I have sent wood to Whiffletree... Not sure for Virgivia, but it is very possible. So it may very well be that yours originally came from me...

[Dieter Höller]

@Claude Thanks for your insights! According to Peck (Foster's) Virginia Crab is an offspring of Malus 'Manchurian' and an unknown parent, so it's probably not an offspring of 'Hewe's'. How did you conclude that Jefferson used the 'Foster's' variety? Isn't it possible they planted it after he died in Monticello?

@Gloria I grafted mine two years ago, so I can't share photos of the fruit yet. All I know is that the buds are pretty big and distinct from other apple trees. Could you elaborate on the differences between your Virginia Crab and what you read about the historically famous (Hewe's) Virginia Crab?

I wonder when the confusion between the two varieties began. According to Peck's paper, 'Hewe's' originated in the early 1700s, while 'Foster's' probably originated 100 years later. Many historical mentions date back to the 1800s, where both varieties could have existed (see picture below). Maybe 'Foster's' is actually the better and more famous cider apple. 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 17 février 2026 à 02:22:40 UTC-5, Dieter Höller a écrit :

@Claude Thanks for your insights! According to Peck (Foster's) Virginia Crab is an offspring of Malus 'Manchurian' and an unknown parent, so it's probably not an offspring of 'Hewe's'. How did you conclude that Jefferson used the 'Foster's' variety? Isn't it possible they planted it after he died in Monticello?

Well, we have some reports that the triploïd Virginia appeared in a Hewes orchard, and another publication saying it is an offspring of it. Hence that "unknown parent" as reported from the DNA analysis could very well be the diploïd Hewes. Now, since there is no known tree in existance of the Hewes, it's DNA signature is not in the database, so any offspring from it would be considered as having an unknown parent. This is not a proof, but it is not impossible either.

As of Jefferson, it is well documented that he used Virginia for making his cider in Monticello. If he would have had the original diploïd Hewes at that time, it means that all these Hewes trees would have died and replaced by the triploïd Virginia. I think this is highly improbable. When replacing a tree in an orchard, you'd probably make sure you use original wood to graft the new tree. And let's imagine he would have replaced a few dead Hewes trees with Virginia, when those started fruiting, he would have noted the difference.

 

[Dieter Höller]

Claude Jolicoeur schrieb am Dienstag, 17. Februar 2026 um 15:01:13 UTC+1:

Well, we have some reports that the triploïd Virginia appeared in a Hewes orchard, and another publication saying it is an offspring of it. Hence that "unknown parent" as reported from the DNA analysis could very well be the diploïd Hewes. Now, since there is no known tree in existance of the Hewes, it's DNA signature is not in the database, so any offspring from it would be considered as having an unknown parent. This is not a proof, but it is not impossible either.

Fair enough! Could you please share these publications, if possible?

 

As of Jefferson, it is well documented that he used Virginia for making his cider in Monticello. If he would have had the original diploïd Hewes at that time, it means that all these Hewes trees would have died and replaced by the triploïd Virginia. I think this is highly improbable. When replacing a tree in an orchard, you'd probably make sure you use original wood to graft the new tree. And let's imagine he would have replaced a few dead Hewes trees with Virginia, when those started fruiting, he would have noted the difference.

After Jefferson died in 1826, the new owners of Monticello removed apple trees (I don't know how many) to plant other species. Restoration of the gardens began in 1938, and the north orchard was only restored in 1992 by Tom Burford and Peter Hatch. It’s easy to imagine that original Hewe’s trees were lost during that long period of neglect. After all, Jefferson had 100 trees of his favorite variety, ‘Taliaferro,’ and it still got lost.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mar. 17 févr. 2026 à 10:16, Dieter Höller a écrit :

Fair enough! Could you please share these publications, if possible?

One is Dan Bussey's book : https://www.jakkawpress.com/book/the-illustrated-history-of-apples-in-the-united-states-and-canada

The other is a 1936 publication that Paul Kron refered to in his email, but I didn't keep it.

 After Jefferson died in 1826, the new owners of Monticello cut down apple trees (I don't know how many) to make room for other plantings. Restoration of the gardens began in 1938. The north orchard was restored in 1992 by Tom Burford and Peter Hatch. It's easy to imagine that original Hewe's got lost in this long period of neglect. After all, Jefferson had 100 trees of his favourite apple variety 'Taliaferro' and it still got lost.

OK... it is possible then that the replacement may be different... But still, I would imagine that Tom used stock from old near-by trees, that could have been of the same variety than those originally at Monticello. But only speculating here...

[Alex Kroh]

I think an interesting question to ask at this point is:

Has anyone ever had a Virginia or Hewes Crab cider that was remarkable? 

I for one have tried various single varietals and blends and haven’t found them to be remarkable beyond the historical bit. They were good, but to my palate not really exceptional. I think the claim that “they have merit otherwise cider makers would not use them” is a bit generous. Given their historical reputation, of course people planted these trees in an attempt to create great cider. And, then, once the fruit appeared, of course they continued to use it despite a potential lack of great cider making qualities compared to similar crabs or high acid apples. I mean, sure they could be top grafted to some other variety, but the industry is too young to dismiss the marketing value and lore of such a documented varietal. 

Perhaps a poll is in order to see whether folks really think this apple (the true one or otherwise) is better than say Ashmeads Kernel, or Puget Spice, or any wild crab that someone has selected. I love a bit of history, but maybe it’s time to retire the esteem for this apple?

[Courtney Meier]

Hi folks -

I've been following this discussion with interest. To Alex's question, Daniel Haykin has made a single-varietal cider from what I now think is Virginia Crab that I thought was exceptionally delicious. I first tried it in 2019, and at the time Daniel made the cider from two 100+ year old trees that he found growing somewhere in Boulder, Colorado. He thought the trees were Virginia Hewes Crab based on the fruit characteristics but he was not sure. I was enthralled with the cider and decided to order what was billed as a "Virginia Crab (Hewe's)" from Cummins Nursery in New York that I planted in April 2020. 

By 2022, the tree I planted produced a few fruits (attached photos, fruits are approx 4 cm diameter), and I decided to send leaf samples from my tree as well as leaf samples from the trees Daniel had found to Paul Kron at the University of Guelph. Apparently, Claude sent leaf samples from his trees to Paul that same year - small world! After analyzing the samples, Paul told me pretty much exactly the same thing he told Claude, which was that my tree, the old trees that Daniel found growing in Boulder, and another tree Paul analyzed growing in Ontario were all triploid and all genetically identical. Paul also shared the 1936 Edgecombe dissertation chapter with me that Claude mentioned above, and Edgecombe suggests "Virginia Crab" is triploid and may have arisen from a diploid parent that might be "Virginia Hewes Crab" but there was no way to prove this. 

Over the past couple of years my tree has produced more and more fruit, but still not enough for me to do anything meaningful. However, based on Daniel's results, I hope I may eventually get something worthwhile. I have noticed that in Boulder, the fruit is ripe late August to early September, is frequently full of watercore, and does not keep well. I measured the SG at peak ripeness from 2022-2025 and it ranged from 1.069-1.089 with an average SG of 1.080, and in 2024 I measured the Total Acidity (Malic Acid Equivalent) and found it was 11.5 g/L. The juice is rich, tart, and somewhat astringent in my location.

Cheers,

Courtney

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I just recieved an email from David Zakalik who is Greg Peck's research aide and author of the Virginia Crab paper referenced by Dieter. He says he can't post to this forum but he'd like the following text to be posted, so he asked me to post it on his behalf...

Hello all,

This is Greg Peck's research aide David Zakalik (author of the Virginia Crab paper) writing in response to various questions and comments.

First, in response to Dieter Höller:

1. We encourage anyone and everyone who thinks they have the true-to-type 'Hughes' to get theirs genotyped. My personal opinion is that it's highly unlikely anyone has it, based on conversations I've had with elder states(wo)men of the American cider community about Tom Burford's "rediscovery" of it. However, I could be wrong and pray that I am. 
2. Foster's Virginia makes a splendid cider. A 19th-century horticulturist I quoted in the paper agreed. Personal anecdote: I made a single-varietal cider from our 'Foster's Virginia' at the Cornell orchard. All I did was press it and pitch some champagne yeast into it. I got more unsolicited compliments on that cider than any other SV or blended cider I've ever made. Foster's Virginia is aromatic, rich in sugar, softly tannic, and has lovely bright acidity.
3. Foster's Virginia is a worthy cultivar. It's not a "wild crab" but rather an offspring of the widely-distributed triploid M. baccata hybrid 'Siberian', an ornamental crab which is the parent of several other beloved crab hybrids.

Next, in response to Claude:

• To my knowledge, our paper is the first to refer to this crab as "Foster's Virginia." We did this to minimize conflation with Hughes Virginia Crab. It's not 100% certain that it originated in Suel Foster's orchard, but that's what the literature from the Minn. Hort. Soc. minutes suggests.
• I prefer the spelling "Hughes" over "Hewes" because the earliest sources use the former spelling. It's still unclear who Mr. Hughes was or where in Virginia he lived.
• As Dieter noted in his response, Foster's Virginia is likely not the one that Jefferson had growing at Monticello. He almost certainly had the real Hughes Crab. The horticulture staff at the Monticello museum replanted the orchards there only a few decades ago, and I've gotten conflicting stories from them about where they sourced their budwood. That's a whole email unto itself, but if anyone's interested, I can write a follow-up.
• I neglected to include several identifying features of true-to-type Hughes mentioned in the early nineteenth century. According to the unpublished second edition of William Coxe's book, A View of the Cultivation of Fruit Trees, the wood is supposed to be very hard, and the leaves are supposed to be on the small side and waxy. An 1814 letter from Timothy Pickering, recounting correspondence he had with a Col. Roan (possibly the originator of Roane's White Crab, incidentally) says that the leaves "differed from the leaf of all other apple trees; resembling, in its shining and smooth surface, the pear leaf much more than the apple leaf. This [Col. Roan] said, was characteristic of Hughes's crab."
  

In response to Gloria:

• Given that (in my opinion) no one has the true Hughes, the photos you've compared your fruit to are all of Foster's 'Virginia' rather than Hughes Crab.

A note about the screenshot from my 2021 seminar that Dieter shared: I think that the newspaper adverts for "Virginia Crab Cider" are ambiguous, and that I misinterpreted them while preparing those slides. (This was before I had dug into the Hughes/Foster conflation.) In some cases, it could simply mean crabapple cider from Virginia. "Crabapple wine," regardless of which cultivar(s) were used, has long been a rural specialty. I have a folder full of newspaper clippings and other sources mentioning Horticultural Society competitions for the best crabapple wine. Only sources that say "Hewes" or "Hughes" crab cider can be definitely understood as referring to SV cider made of Hughes Crab. That portion of my seminar has likely multiplied the confusion and conflation in recent years. Mea culpa.

In response to Alex's question: See response #2 to Dieter.

I hope all this is helpful.

Cheers,

David

[Dieter Höller]

Many thanks to all of you who took the time to respond! I really appreciate the depth of knowledge and the willingness to share your experience so generously.

 
My main takeaways are:

•  The historical Hughes Crab might not exist anymore
•  The Virginia Crab trees currently circulating appear to have the same genetics ("Foster's Virginia Crab")
•  Not all Virginia Crab ciders are remarkable, but some clearly are, suggesting the variety may perform quite differently depending on site and climate.
• The commonly circulating type seems prone to watercore, which could potentially be beneficial for cider due to elevated sorbitol levels.

I'd love to hear more about how Virginia Crab behaves in different climates. If anyone has analytical data (SG/Brix, total acidity, tannin impressions), I’d be very curious to see how those numbers compare across regions. Also, what are the ripening windows in your location?

In response to David: I'd also be very interested to learn more about where the Monticello budwood was sourced.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Remains the issue of the origin of Foster Virginia crab...

David wrote above: "It's not 100% certain that it originated in Suel Foster's orchard, but that's what the literature from the Minn. Hort. Soc. minutes suggests."

From which we may assume the Foster's orchard was in Minnesota?

While in the Edgecombe 1936 thesis referenced above, we can read p.46: "Virginia Crab ... variety discovered about 1885 at Muscatine, Iowa, among some Hewes Virginia Crab seedlings"

Hence we seem to have 2 different hypothesis, with a first find in an orchard that was either in Iowa or Minnesota...

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Correction, this is in page 38 and not 46, and comes from a reference by Maney, T.J. (1926) in Proc. Amer. Soc. Hort. Sci., 22:211-217

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Got another email from David Zakalik, where he confirms that Suel Foster's farm was in Iowa. The fact this was reported by the Minn Hort Soc led me wrongly to assume it originated in Minn...

So we now have 3 different  non-contradicting sources for the origin of the Foster-Virginia Crab...

It would have been discovered about 1885, on Foster's farm at Muscatine, Iowa, and 2 sources mention there were some Hewes Virginia Crab trees and/or seedlings around.

Now, weather the Hewes/Hughes is a parent or not remains unknown. And most probably will never be known for sure unless someone discovers a tree of Hewes/Hughes and have its DNA analyzed.

The other parent is M. baccata hybrid 'Siberian' from DNA analysis.

Le mercredi 4 mars 2026 à 14:05:46 UTC-5, Claude Jolicoeur a écrit :

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 5 mars 2026 à 20:46:08 UTC-5, Claude Jolicoeur a écrit :

Got another email from David Zakalik, where he confirms that Suel Foster's farm was in Iowa. The fact this was reported by the Minn Hort Soc led me wrongly to assume it originated in Minn...

So we now have 3 different  non-contradicting sources for the origin of the Foster-Virginia Crab...

It would have been discovered about 1885, on Foster's farm at Muscatine, Iowa, and 2 sources mention there were some Hewes Virginia Crab trees and/or seedlings around.

Now, weather the Hewes/Hughes is a parent or not remains unknown. And most probably will never be known for sure unless someone discovers a tree of Hewes/Hughes and have its DNA analyzed.

The other parent is M. baccata hybrid 'Siberian' from DNA analysis.

 

Correction - this should be ‘Manchurian’, not ‘Siberian.’ 

[Richard Reeves]

Alex asked "  Has anyone ever had a Virginia or Hewes Crab cider that was remarkable?" 

As I have more of these apples than any other (they almost always  comprise ~30% or so of my blends) I finally made a single-variety VHC in 2024. Remarkable? no, not really but eminently quaffable? absolutely. I would say not as interesting as some, but superior to many others so a good base for me to build blends from. 

I believe have the exact same apple as in Courtney's pictures, my TA is not quite so high as his but harvest window is almost identical, a mild bittersweet not crossing into the "spitter" realm but just pleasantly astringent. FWIW these trees are reliable heavy croppers for me, no tendency towards biennialism and disease free (immune?) in my location. I planted 5 in 2013 (g-210), I liked them enough to plant 5 more (g-890) in 2022. I'm mildly surprised to learn they are a triploid as the crops are so ridiculously heavy and reliable. Trees sourced from Cummins nursery in NY state. A word to anyone planting them: any attempt to shape this variety into something vaguely coherent in the orchard will be met with hearty laughter by your tree. New shoots can and do grow in every possible direction, except perhaps those you might prefer.