pH of desert and cooking apples

[michael]

Does anyone know of a website giving the pH of typical desert and
cooking apples?
I have believed that culled garden fruit was somewhat acidic,and hence
a useful addition when one is short of bittersharp or sharp cider
apples.However I was rather surprised recently when I added some Lord
Lambourne& Golden Noble to some early dropping Dabinett &Ashton Brown
Jersey cider apples.I thought that these cider apples would benefit
from such garden fruit to improve the acid balance,and was very
surprised that the pH of the mixture (50% ABJ/Dab:50%LdL/GdNo)turned
out to be 3.9.My only conclusion was that one or other of the desert
apples had a particularly high pH.
So,I am searching for information about typical pH values for garden
fruit,which hopefully includes the following apples which I add to the
mix sometimes.I know that the pH will depend on soil
conditions,season,ripeness and maturity,but some typical or relative
values would be most useful.
Lord Lambourne
Golden Noble
Newton Wonder ( particularly interested in this apple as I have a
massive crop)
King of the Pippins
Court of Wick
D'Arcy Spice
Norfolk Beefing

Thanks,Michael

[Vigneron Rowland]

I think the best thing to do it to buy an inexpensive Ph meter and
sample the fruit (like wine makers sample the grapes) and keep a log
of brix/SG and Ph, as well as some information on where the fruit came
from. I think that there are way to many variables to to have a set
number year to year, and since Ph for cider is such a precise
measurement, even say a small range estimate (eg 3.7- 4.1) wouldn't be
very useful. Also, I know certain strains of yeast claim to "slightly
lower Ph" during fermentation, I think it was a Lavlin yeast.

The only place I can think of where they may have the figures your
looking for are professional food labs. Companies like Mott's (an
apple juice company) or Gerber (canned baby food), who deal with
millions of tons of different apple varieties, turning them into
totally consistent and shelf stable product. That information would
probably be proprietary.

[Andrew Lea]

On 15/10/2010 14:29, michael wrote:
> >
> surprised that the pH of the mixture (50% ABJ/Dab:50%LdL/GdNo)turned
> out to be 3.9.My only conclusion was that one or other of the desert
> apples had a particularly high pH.

pH is not a linear scale and not additive, plus there are buffering
effects which means you cannot totally accurately predict the final pH
by calculation (though you can predict titratable acidity). If the pH of
your Dabs / ABJ was say 4.3, it is quite likely that the addition of the
others only brings it down to pH 3.9. As already suggested, you could
measure the pH of each type of fruit to check your hypothesis and then
you have the only good data. However, in practice you are not so far off
the 'magic threshold' value of pH 3.8 so not a great deal to worry about
I think.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[michael]

I have always known that bittersweets have a high pH,but am surprised
that it can be as high as 4.3.
I always tend to try to mix in some bittersharps with the later crops
so that the pH is at a reasonable level for fermentation.However I did
not know that it would be that difficult to make a single variety
bittersweet cider(high pH leading to spoilage problems)as many texts
describe the character of single variety bittersweet ciders (e.g Liz
Copas).Following Andrew's table of sulphite addition vs pH,I think he
recommends bringing down the pH by mixing with more acidic varieties
if the pH is above 3.9.
Perhaps I should purchase a pH meter (rather than strips which I
have),and make some measurements myself of the varieties I grow.I have
refrained from this as I believed that they are expensive if
reasonably accurate.I seem to get through boxes of strips rather
fast.Could someone recommend a suitable one with say 0.1 accuracy?
Michael

[Andrew Lea]

On 16/10/2010 10:22, michael wrote:
>
> However I did
> not know that it would be that difficult to make a single variety
> bittersweet cider(high pH leading to spoilage problems)as many texts
> describe the character of single variety bittersweet ciders (e.g Liz
> Copas).

They do but you have to ask where that data comes from. A lot of it has
been handed down from Long Ashton work in the 70's and earlier. That's
where Liz got hers.

For assessment purposes, from before the time I joined LARS in 1972, it
had been standard practice to drop the pH of any SV juices to pH 3.8 (if
they were above) by addition of malic acid, followed by correct
sulphiting and then pitching a cultured yeast. This was felt to make for
a more realistic assessment of the SV potential, free from random
contaminating microbiological effects. If I were to make an SV myself
that is what I would do.

Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[Dave Sargent]

Dear All, this season we have upgraded our pressing equipment to a steel fabricated  monster and as it seems to work without any problems, we are giving away our wooden one.  its made from ash and oak timbers about 6 inches square. press area about 58cm wide and about 60cm tall. its about 6 ft overall height, and about 4 ft square at the base. it comes with the bottle jack (6 tonne?) etc. but no press plates or cloths or juice trays. if you have Andrew Lea's book, you can see it in there as it was originally his. .I will send pics of current condition, off group,  if required. its currently assembled and the new owner would have to collect. we have left it assembled as its easier to see how it all fits together. we will help take it apart if needs be. a trailer would save the dismantling. it takes 4 strong people to lift it, but with a couple of trolley wheels it can be moved quite easily. needs to go before month end as space needed. Press is in North Yorkshire, DL7 9DU. anyone interested, please contact me off group. cheers dave

[Andrew Lea]

On 18/10/2010 12:04, Dave Sargent wrote:
>
> its made from ash and oak timbers about 6 inches square. press area
> about 58cm wide and about 60cm tall. its about 6 ft overall height, and
> about 4 ft square at the base. it comes with the bottle jack (6 tonne?)
> etc. but no press plates or cloths or juice trays. if you have Andrew
> Lea's book, you can see it in there as it was originally his.

Hope it goes to a good home Dave! For the rest of the group, yes it was
originally the one I built but Dave had to do a good deal of
reconditioning to get it back into use - I had personally labelled it as
beyond recovery but he proved me wrong! (The 'carpentry' - at least any
that was down to me - is idiosyncratic to say the least!)