flash pasteurizer

[Trevor]

Hey folks,

Technical question here. 

Would it be possible to flash pasteurize blended, backsweetened hard cider directly into a bright tank? Or would it be better to flash pasteurize post-bright tank, if so, how does it affect carbonation?

Thanks,

Trevor

[Nat West]

As has been stated here many times, flash pasteurization, or any out-of-sealed-bottle pasteurization needs to be accomplished with everything downstream aseptic. Good luck with that.

Flash pasteurization by itself will not affect carbonation, but the rapid increase of heat will expand the CO2, create higher pressure inline and make it more difficult to bottle successfully. If the goal is to carbonate in a brite tank, it will be very difficult to bottle after running the carbonated cider through a pasteurizer. Again, good luck with that.

Folks around here regularly do in-bottle pasteurization because it's very easy to do and I at least am not the brightest fellow.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

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[Trevor Baker - Noble Cider]

Yeah, that's what I figured. Still, there's a guy not far from me selling a goodnature micro flash pasteurizer for a great price. We were trying to scheme up a way to retrofit the thing to do a hot-fill into bottles, but we also want it carbonated. . . .basically, I want to have my cake and eat it too. Oh well! 

Thanks Nat

[Eric Wettlaufer]

Trevor,

 

I you are going to Flash pasteurize a carbonated beverage you need to make sure the pasteurizer is operating under pressure, not free to the atmosphere.  I am actually an engineer at a company that makes this type of pasteurizer, Goodnature (and cider presses too).  Depending on the type of filler you are using, I would say you could pasteurize before carbonating, but there are a lot of variables here.  I’d be happy to give a more specific answer if you’d like.

 

-Eric

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[Nat West]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2012 at 1:24 PM, Sam Dufner <samd...@gmail.com> wrote:

...just follow good practice and you'll be fine.

That's a bold statement. All it takes is one yeastie floating in the air, getting into the bottle after you've sanitized it and while you're filling it, to potentially make a bottle bomb, depending on your residual/backsweetened sugar. And in a cidery, there are yeasties everywhere including floating in the air. Might be an acceptable risk for a home cider maker, but I assumed Trevor is producing commercially. I won't take that chance.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Trevor Baker - Noble Cider]

Thanks for all the info fellas,

Yes, we are gearing up to produce commercially. I am concerned about our ability to ensure a super clean operation after the flash pasteurizer to the bottle. I know it can be done, but we might be biting off more than we can chew at present.

At this point, we will likely keep it simple/safe by batch pasteurizing our bottles. What if we only used the flash pasteurizer for kegs? Instead of a sterile filtration? Could we run the backsweetened cider thru the flash pasteurizer into the bright tank, carbonate, fill kegs, and still maintain a stable product with a decent shelf life?

This seems reasonable considering that once the bright tank and kegs are sterilized, the chance of yeast getting in is much less than with bottles. Not 100% perhaps, but pretty stable correct? It might be overkill for kegs, but not a bad thing. It also seems easier than dealing with a two/three module sterile filter process for product stability in kegs. The flash pasteurizer would be faster, which might be handy when keg business picks up.

Normally, our budget wouldn't even entertain the notion of owning a micro flash pasteurizer! 35-40K is way out of our price range as a startup company---but this machine is local, and it's priced right. Hence, my desire to figure out how to use it in our operation if possible!

Our goal for now is to produce a lightly sweetened, carbonated cider that's available in kegs and bottles. After weighing everyone's comments in this post, we plan on building a batch pasteurizer (similar to Nat's) to ensure bottle stability. It's the kegs I'm worried about. A bad keg can ruin one's reputation. Any insight here? 

(I'll start a new post regarding this, but just so ya'll know---the cider has already been filtered thru a coarse and fine, down to .45 micron before maturation in bag-in-box systems)

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[Trevor]

Thanks Sam! That is an excellent point about the filters for the CO2 line. I'll look into those for sure. We will purge the the sanitized bright tank prior to filling--hopefully that will eliminate the oxygen problem there. I posted a longer reply to this thread as well.

On Sunday, December 16, 2012 4:24:10 PM UTC-5, Sam Dufner wrote:

Trevor,

As far as I am aware the Micro pasteurizer cools the liquid after heating so a hot fill into bottles would not be possible.  Maybe you can disable that part and hot fill, but that would require quite the counter-pressure setup, not to mention that you would have to hot fill at a point that is high enough to heat the bottles up which would be more than you want for product quality, otherwise you're sanitizing bottles anyway so why bother.  You should also make sure that the machine can handle the increase in pressure you will get from your CO2 saturation point being really low.  I think it's really a technical question for Good Nature.

It is entirely possible to pasteurize into a bright tank, cool, carbonate, then bottle.  Your sanitation will have to be good, but no better than is standard for the beer or wine industry.  I think that the primary concern you will have will be making sure that air does not find it's way into the tank as you fill your bright tank and through venting.  You can get sanitary filters to go on your air lines if you are worried about your CO2 source.

I still think that water bath pasteurizing bottles is easier with less chance of product quality degradation, but don't be worried about sanitation issues filling from a bright tank, just follow good practice and you'll be fine.

Best of luck,
Sam

[Trevor]

Hey Eric,

My business partner has been conversing with someone from Goodnature already, not just about the flash pasteurizer. If we purchase this used one, we will probably use it as it is! It's an older model, the propane boiler is not connected to the main unit. I'm guessing we can rig it together in some fashion without too much trouble. Do you happen to know the size of the input/output lines? 1.5 inch? 
 

We are also on the hunt for the elusive used SX-200 press! Do you guys have any old demo models you'd like to sell? I had to ask. . . .

Thanks,

Trevor

[Eric Wettlaufer]

Trevor,

Without knowing specifics on the pasteurizer it’s impossible to say, but I’d guess it has 1.5” sanitary tri-clamp. We’ve made many custom designs for whacky applications so nothing would really surprise me.  I would recommend taking a close look at the heat exchanger and make sure all the gaskets are still good and the pumps work properly, it can get expensive if it wasn’t cared for.  I’ve seen some pretty nasty stuff left over in plate packs.  (More often than not everything is okay). 

 

In terms of a used press, sorry to say we don’t have any!  When they do come in they usually go pretty quick, and I’d recommend working with our press salesman in that regard (Pete).   

Good luck! 

[Sam Dufner]

Trevor,

Keg's should be the simple one.  If you really want to use the pasteurizer; blend, pasteurize and fill kegs at the same time within a closed system, then carbonate in the kegs.  It really sounds as if you are designing home-made equipment here, so why not just carbonate in the kegs with an inline carbonation or agitation?  (I am making that assumption based on Nat's comments about air exposure during bottling and subsequent replies, as a commercial bottling system would remain closed to outside air during capping).

Alternatively why not just keep your kegs cold?  Are you adding SO2?  SO2 and temperature should prevent malo-lactic bacteria, and if you are stable into maturation you should be free of other bacterial/fungal contamination.  I would think your only concern in a keg would be re-fermenting, not contamination, assuming you are using good practice and not exposing the cider to air which is really easy to do filling kegs.  Temperature should be plenty to control this, in which case you need to talk to distributors and retailers about keeping kegs cold.  I have had no re-fermentation with kegs kept cold for up to a year (might last longer they just get consumed too quick).  This has been the sentiment shared by others on this list for years as well. 

Happy Holidays!

Sam

[Nat West]

In addition to keeping kegs cold as Sam suggests (Hi Sam!), you should also look at upping your SO2 in the keg to the maximum comfortable/legal limit, along with a miracle chemical called POTASSIUM SORBATE.

If you do a .45 micron sterile filter prior to aging, use a clean and properly purged brite tank (purging a brite can be time consuming and it's easy to do it wrong), steam-sterilize your pump/transfer hoses and add SO2 and K-Sorbate to your brite, and properly fill into clean and sanitized non-openable sankey-style kegs, then you'll be set for a year or more. That is what the medium-sized commercial producers in the NW do with great success, although we remain somewhat paranoid about a bad keg ruining a tap account.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Mike Beck]

Trevor,

I see you have already filtered your cider.  A pasteurization process seems like wearing a belt and suspenders at this point.  We have been making cider, commercially just like the profile you talk about for 10 years(bottle & keg).  We have only ever used sterile filtration to protect the cider.  I have had few pasteurized ciders yet where I can not taste a carmelized or cooked flavor.  There may be some commercial examples (here in the states anyway) that may get less of a physical change in cider.  But more often than not, most ciders get over-pasteurized and take on extra flavors than where it sat in your storage tank.  Cooking is a treatment best left for an apple pie or other baked goods.    When we make a sweet fruit cider I will forgo sterile filtration and use Sorbate.  The extra fruit flavors & sweetness mask the potential of sorbate flavoring cider negatively.  Our company has had a general disdain of pasteurization ever since  a few people thought pasteurization would be the silver bullet  for fresh cider makers in the  90’s and force all of us into that process.  Pasteurization made what we thought were exponential changes in fresh cider.  Not only did the carmelized taste ring through, it made our fresh juice clear up and drop all of its pieces that made its deep rust  color.   Luckily we still have that ability sell un-pasteurized juice to the public.  My point being, if it could change things so much as juice, I certainly did not want what I was doing in an orchard & cellar so gently to be changed so drastically in a matter of seconds.  I would suggest to  try to compare commercial and non-commercial examples of both treatments.  Let me know if I am full of BS, I may be either sensitive to it or my head is poisoned against.  I should not say that all of the pasteurized ciders I have had are bad, some are, but many have ranged to acceptable to great.  I just notice the profile.

Mike beck

St. John’s MI

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Trevor Baker - Noble Cider
Sent: Monday, December 17, 2012 9:53 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] flash pasteurizer

 

Thanks for all the info fellas,

[Trevor Baker - Noble Cider]

Yes, I'm crazy paranoid about a bum keg! So true. I used to deliver for a beer & wine distributor--I've seen behind the curtain, as they say. I've got my paranoia under control though. . . .I swear. That being said, I don't want my unreasonable fears to cloud a reasonable decision here.

I've never used sorbate, and I was trying to not use it. But for our small-scale setup, it may be the best option to prevent refermentation in the kegs? We do use SO2 pre-fermentation, so I shouldn't be so anti-sorbate. I'll do some research on it tonight. Does it effect the flavor or mouthfeel significantly? 

I really appreciate everyone's input here. If anyone needs a Goodnature Micro Flash Pasteurizer, there's one for sale in Waynesville, NC for $5K. It's been well maintained--they upgraded to the UV pasteurizer just this year, so it works great.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

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[Nat West]

On Mon, Dec 17, 2012 at 4:54 PM, Trevor Baker - Noble Cider <tre...@noblecider.com> wrote:

I really appreciate everyone's input here. If anyone needs a Goodnature Micro Flash Pasteurizer, there's one for sale in Waynesville, NC for $5K. It's been well maintained--they upgraded to the UV pasteurizer just this year, so it works great.

Oh you should have mentioned that it's a UV pasteurizer in the beginning, not a flash (HTST) pasteurizer. Check out this thread:

https://groups.google.com/forum/?fromgroups=#!topic/cider-workshop/8164zmv4T6c

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Wes Cherry]

Note that Nat calls for SO2 and sterile filtration when using potassium sorbate.   Never use potassium sorbate alone to suppress microorganisms in your cider.   Potassium sorbate will suppress yeast but isn't effective against bacteria.

The SO2 and filtration is to knock out any malolactic bacteria.    You may also want to consider using lyzozyme.   It is essential that you get no malolactic fermentation once you use potassium sorbate.  ML bacterial +  sorbic acid can generate geranium flavors to your cider.   I have only encountered this once -- in a commercial cider no less.   Like mousiness, it's a flavor you won't forget!

-'//es Cherry

w...@dragonsheadcider.com

Vashon WA, USA

[Trevor Baker - Noble Cider]

The unit for sale is the HTST flash pasteurizer. The place selling it upgraded to the UV this year--I was just saying that the HTST is in good repair, if anybody is in need of one. It's an older unit--the boiler is not attached to the main unit.

Thanks everyone!

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[Corey Blaine]

Did he sell the HTST pasteurizer? We have a small dairy in Boise, idaho and are looking for a pasteurizer for milk so we can sell to some local stores.

Corey Blaine
208-841-8127