best Sucralose to use
Orchard eye
We want to sweeten some of our cider and will probably use Sucralose
as it seems to be the best option.
Can anybody please recommend the best brand to buy.
Many thanks
Neil
www.orchardeye.com
new t shirts coming.
Andrew Lea
> We want to sweeten some of our cider and will probably use Sucralose
> as it seems to be the best option.
>
> Can anybody please recommend the best brand to buy.
As far as I know there are 3 wholesalers of sucralose into the UK
market. They would probably have a minimum order of around 10 kg. That
is equivalent in sweetening power to 6 tons of sugar!
From previous discussion, you are unlikely to want such large
quantities and I think the only retail brand commonly available is
Splenda (though Nevella may have just launched in the UK). The tablets
or powder (both cut with other diluents) are readily available at any
supermarket.
Andrew
PS My cider under snow at
http://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/q7LDWSWoc6JDys8dnoZfFQ?authkey=Gv1sRgCP3N4OO6nrykggE&feat=directlink
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Orchard eye
Actually I think that i got the name wrong. I actually meant Saccharin
which I think is the perferred sweetner, as with WIlkins cider etc.
Does that sound right ?
Neil
PS, Will your cider be ok under all that snow?
On Jan 11, 2:39 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Orchard eye wrote:
> > We want to sweeten some of our cider and will probably use Sucralose
> > as it seems to be the best option.
>
> > Can anybody please recommend the best brand to buy.
>
> As far as I know there are 3 wholesalers of sucralose into the UK
> market. They would probably have a minimum order of around 10 kg. That
> is equivalent in sweetening power to 6 tons of sugar!
>
> From previous discussion, you are unlikely to want such large
> quantities and I think the only retail brand commonly available is
> Splenda (though Nevella may have just launched in the UK). The tablets
> or powder (both cut with other diluents) are readily available at any
> supermarket.
>
> Andrew
>
> PS My cider under snow athttp://picasaweb.google.co.uk/lh/photo/q7LDWSWoc6JDys8dnoZfFQ?authkey...
>
> --
> Wittenham Hill Cider Pagehttp://www.cider.org.uk
Andrew Lea
On Jan 11, 2:56 pm, Orchard eye <neilphillipsph...@btopenworld.com>
wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
>
> Actually I think that i got the name wrong. I actually meant Saccharin
> which I think is the perferred sweetner, as with WIlkins cider etc.
>
> Does that sound right ?
There was a fair bit of discussion on this in the Workshop during
November. The consensus here was that Splenda (sucralose) was
preferable to saccharin by far in taste terms. As we said then, a lot
of so-called traditional cidermakers use saccharin because it's cheap
and cheerful and non-fermentable and they and their grandparents have
been doing it for the last 100 years. Pity it doesn't do the cider any
favours.
The choice is yours. You can get bulk saccharin easily eg from Vigo.
Andrew
Orchard eye
Thanks for your advice, we'll probably do some taste tests with both
and see which comes out on top.
We will keep a good percentage of our cider completely dry though.
Best Wishes,
Neil
www.Orchardeye.com
http://theorchardgroup.wordpress.com/
Roy Bailey
>wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> Actually I think that i got the name wrong. I actually meant Saccharin
>> which I think is the perferred sweetner,
>>
>>as with WIlkins cider etc.
>>
How odd that these iconic traditional cider makers should use such
stuff. I know of at least one other who does.
I would never even consider it.
Roy.
--
Roy Bailey - Proprietor
The Lambourn Valley Cider Company
(Real cider from the Royal County)
<www.lambournvalleycider.co.uk>
Andrew Lea
>>>
>>> Actually I think that i got the name wrong. I actually meant Saccharin
>>> which I think is the perferred sweetner,
>>>
> Not by anyone who cares about the taste of their cider, it isn't!
>
>>> as with WIlkins cider etc.
>>>
> How odd that these iconic traditional cider makers should use such
> stuff. I know of at least one other who does.
>
> I would never even consider it.
It is interesting how when saccharin was first used by farmhouse cider
makers in the late 19th century (along with salicylic acid, boric acid
and other horrors!) it was roundly and rightly condemned by the likes of
Bulmers and Radcliffe-Cooke (then MP for Hereford) as being a travesty
of true cider.
Roy was only a youngster then of course.... ;-)
Andrew
Orchard eye
Using artificial sweeteners is a tricky one and we are exploring
whether to use them or not very carefully but what is evident is that
there are a lot of very satisfied customers in Somerset/west country
who buy cider from the Farmhouse cidermakers using saccharin,to a
greater and lesser extent and who swear buy the taste of the cider
they produce. They are passionate cider makers and are considered to
be cider making legends.
I guess it all boils down to personal choice and taste.
Andrew Lea
>
> They are passionate cider makers and are considered to
> be cider making legends.
Legends they may be, but if they are relying on saccharin or any other
artificial sweetener to produce a saleable product then they are trading
on a falsehood and no better than the 'industrial' makers and
glucose-wine merchants whom doubtless they condemn at every opportunity.
The more so if they are not being up-front and honest with people by not
declaring it. Of course that is another meaning of 'legend' isn't it,
something bogus that isn't what it's cracked up to be! It irritates me
beyond measure that these are the people with all their wooden barrels
and their muck and magic artifice who claim to hold the high moral
ground in cidermaking. Yet on the quiet they are happy enough to slip in
the white powders when their customers aren't looking.
No other country in the world permits saccharin or artificial sweeteners
in cider or fruit wines so far as I know.
Andrew (a recently enrolled student at the Roy Bailey School of
Grumpiness!)
Roy Bailey
writes
Andrew Lea
>>
>> Andrew (a recently enrolled student at the Roy Bailey School of
>> Grumpiness!)
>>
> Got a fair bit of studying to do yet, by the sound of it!
It will take me years to emulate the Master, I know. But a young fellow
has to start his apprenticeship somewhere ;-)
Andrew
Dennis Bancroft
harumph harumph
> Date: Tue, 12 Jan 2010 16:11:08 +0000
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: best Sucralose to use
Got a cool Hotmail story? Tell us now
Cornelius Traas
Or can I also say just how much of a cheat this is.
To my mind adding saccharin without declaration it is as bad (or worse) than
someone passing off non-organic produce as organic.
Specifically to Neil, you do know that you can make a naturally sweet cider
without saccharin or other artificial sweeteners. See previous postings
about keeving for more information. That is the honest way to do it. There
are other honest ways too, but these require more high-tech equipment.
Con Traas
The Apple Farm,
Moorstown, Cahir, Co. Tipperary.
Tel: 052 744 1459
Email: c...@theapplefarm.com
Web: www.theapplefarm.com
Orchard eye
I do appreciate your grumpy replies and take it all on board.
We really are novices in making cider and the cider world so any
advice is really helpful (however curmudgeonly delivered ;)
We are experimenting with our cider at the moment. At present the
cider is tasting good but very dry, possible too dry, especially for
my palate, though Tim whom I'm making the cider with loves it dry.
So we are trying out different methods and will certainly look into
Keeving as a way of sweetening the cider (great suggestion) . The
Purer the cider the better as far as were concerned. Also large
percentage of our cider will be left dry.
Having said that I do quite like the taste of slightly Succharine
sweetened cider (not an easy sentence to say quickly) as do alot of
people and in defense of the cider makers in question they were
perfectly honest and upfront about what they were using to sweeten
their cider when asked. Thats how we know of the practice.
Again, keep up the advice, this is great fun and very educational !
manchedave
another novice to more scientific cider-making here too, tho been
making country cider here for (hmm) some time . As a point of
principle I'd expect saccharine to be on the label --- I just don't
buy anything with Aspartame in it, ever .
My question is about adding old-fashioned sugar to counter this year's
mix which has too many not- quite- ripe, and sharp , variety of
apple .
The juice is very sweet already, but with sharp aftertaste, so I'm
wondering if the sugar is a good idea at all !
SG 1049 @ 4°, 11dec,
SG 1042 @ 1 or 2° , 12 jan , just now.
The pH is 3 only ...
Any comments welcome --- I've read a bit in the past few weeks, but
also extra busy with being snowed in for a week now, fixing things
etc .
Nick Bradstock
been a requirement of EU (and therefore UK) food labelling law for some time
now that the addition of 'intense sweeteners' (saccharin, sucralose,
aspartame, etc etc) MUST be declared on the label if the product - and this
includes all alcoholic drinks - is to be sold.
I do not know what the case may be for countries outside the EU.
If you examine foodstuffs, including the ciders that the Head of the Grumpy
Faculty and his illustrious forerunner have referred to, they will make some
declaration of this sort:
"Contains [saccharin]". Some play safe by saying "Contains sugar and
[saccharin]" although the measure is aimed at declaring intense sweeteners.
This mirrors the need to declare sulphites in like manner.
To omit to make this declaration is an offence which TSOs may pick up. A
search of the UK Food Standards Agency website will no doubt give further
detail...
Best wishes
Nick
Andrew Lea
> I enter this debate with some trepidation - but only to observe that it has
> been a requirement of EU (and therefore UK) food labelling law for some time
> now that the addition of 'intense sweeteners' (saccharin, sucralose,
> aspartame, etc etc) MUST be declared on the label if the product - and this
> includes all alcoholic drinks - is to be sold.
>
Thanks Nick. I understand that applies to prepack, but does it also
apply where cider is dispensed from 'cask' eg for immediate consumption
at a Festival or on farmhouse premises, or into a smaller container for
'takeaway' use? Does a relevant 'point of sale' notice have to be displayed?
Andrew
from Heather
Heather
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Nick Bradstock
differ. But, for example, the necessary ABV declaration for alcoholic
drinks must be made even for draught - but on a price list is permitted and
it does not necessarily have to be declared on the counter mount.
Labelling is a bit outside my area of expertise (!) but I shall ask NACM's
labelling guru (unless I forget!).
An FSA search may show it up?
BW
N
Peter Ellis
>
> No other country in the world permits saccharin or artificial
> sweeteners in cider or fruit wines so far as I know.
>
at so many things, is blind to a lot else. It is easier, having moved
abroad, for me to see it from outside looking in. We are so convinced
that we are the best and the foreigners are a poor substitute or else
trying to interfere, that critical analysis is often stunted.
Some of it, I suspect, is because the UK is physically isolated from the
rest of Europe. People go abroad on holiday, but most will have little
interaction with other European nationals on a regular basis, in order
to learn of differences, even if they get plenty from non Europeans! The
Poles were probably a notable exception. Many Brits I spoke to were
surprised that the Poles who came over seemed to build better, but they
were accustomed to higher standards, even though they came from a poorer
country.
Other Europeans can and do move much more freely across national
borders, particularly if they live within 20 miles of one and
consequently often work, shop or socialise there, giving them a better
idea of the minutiae of daily life in an adjacent country and how it
compares. What is a 20 minute journey down the road for them is a major
operation for a Brit needing a ferry, a plane or an expensive train
journey. Where I live, in Croatia, a major Italian city is only 40 miles
away and people in my hamlet work and shop there, so know as much about
Italian regulations as Croatian ones. Brits rarely get the same
opportunity, so only know their own regs, good, bad or indifferent.
There are far too many examples of UK belief in superiority that are
simply not justified. As another example, UK chocolate can not be sold
as such outside the UK. Cadbury's export trade comes out of their Polish
factory, where they make to accepted international standards, not
Bourneville, where they use too much vegetable fat, which is cheaper
than cocoa fat. Belgian or Swiss chocolate is highly regarded in the UK,
although it is only produced to standards people expect everywhere else,
except perhaps in the US.
Minced meat in the UK seems to contain anything, whereas here I'm asked
what I would like minced, so I know what I'm getting. As to the great
British banger, Hmph ! Whilst some better ones have appeared in recent
years, the mass market ones often have as little as 50% meat in them.
Ignoring, the salami types, which are generally 99% meat, even
frankfurters here, which are nearer in type, being a cooking sausage,
are 90% meat. The meat content of a lot of British meat products is
lamentable, more akin to wartime rationing, covered by get outs like
calling them 'ready meals', allowing minimal meat content for something
with some sort of meat in its name. They wouldn't get away with it
anywhere else.
I used to believe in British engineering standards until I met a Korean
manufacturer of cutting tools, who surprised me by saying they just made
to a price for the UK market, not to a quality, as they did for elsewhere.
British building standards, whilst rigorously enforced, are generally
not as good as here or most of the rest of Northern Europe, although I
do think UK domestic wiring specs are higher.(I've never liked Schuco
plugs. I've also never understood why the UK ring main and fused plugs
system wasn't adopted as the European standard. Funnily enough, it was
in Baghdad, but the Americans have probably changed it now.) Have you
seen European window and door standards and compared them with Magnet
Joinery?
Yes, there have been Austrian wine and Spanish and Italian olive oil
scandals, but they were illegal in their own countries and were stamped
on hard.
The UK permits, legally, a lot of things that would simply be
unacceptable elsewhere. The EU comes in for a lot of stick, but the UK
has actually negotiated get outs for a lot of this. It then implements
other EU regs in strange ways that nowhere else does and the EU gets the
blame. UK agriculture has really been stuffed.
Sorry for the rant. It's a hobby horse. I just wish more Brits could see
what has been happening.
I'll get my coat !
Cheers
--
Peter Ellis
Porec Sales Office
Croatia Property Services
A trading name of Peter Ellis Grupa d.o.o.
Selling in the new Tuscany!
Tel +385 (0) 92 247 5879 Personal
+385 (0) 981 82 62 40
peter...@croatiapropertyservices.com
in...@croatiapropertyservices.com
http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards16.com
David Llewellyn
sweeteners declared on the label been in force? I hadn't been aware of it.
David L
Dick Dunn
> Here in the US, cider hit a loophole. Wine, beer, spirits and liquiors are
> under the jurisdiction of the Alcohol Tabcoo Firearms (ATF) and therefore
> only really contain the ABV% and surgeon general's warning. Cider falls under
> the Food & Drug Administration, and therefore must have all ingredients
Ah, if only it were so simple!
Cider is under FDA regs if below 7% abv, else TTB. Label requirements are
different in various ways, and it can turn into a massive headache if a
cidermaker ends up with products on both sides of the threshold. Small
producers are exempt from the "Nutritional Info" labeling (but if they
state ingredients, they must be correct and in order of occurrence).
It's not even that simple.
continuing from Heather:
> ...I will say that I have noticed that something like a
> pear cider will read (doing this from memory, so could be wrong), "Fermented
> apple [juice, I think], pear juice, sulfites." And so I think to myself,
> "Ah, they feremented apples first, then backsweetened/flavored with pear
> juice." Yet what went into the fermeented apple cider is unknown...
Yes, there's the rub. It is common to see "six pack ciders" - mass market
ciders - in the US, with a nice ingredient list, only the first ingredient
in the list is something like "hard cider". After that you may see sugar,
water, malic acid, etc. But that doesn't mean that fermented apples are
the top ingredient! "Hard cider" allows sugaring-up and watering-down
before fermentation, so all the ingredient list really tells you is the
secondary mucking-about after fermentation.
It's a sorry mess.
I can appreciate Peter Ellis's lament on British standards, but while I
won't question anything he's saying, I will emphasize that you Brits
should not look to us for higher standards!
> ...There is one older company
> here that calls all their products dry, yet that is how their label reads,
> and it doesn't taste dry to me. I'll have to take a hydrometer to it someday.
Do please, and tell us the results! (and who the "older company" is too)
It's probably a case of the situation--Andrew mentions it off and on--where
people want to SAY they like dry, but what they actually WANT is off-dry
to semi-sweet.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
from Heather
> continuing from Heather:
> > ...I will say that I have noticed that something like a
> > pear cider will read (doing this from memory, so could be wrong), "Fermented
> > apple [juice, I think], pear juice, sulfites." And so I think to myself,
> > "Ah, they feremented apples first, then backsweetened/flavored with pear
> > juice." Yet what went into the fermeented apple cider is unknown...
>
> Yes, there's the rub. It is common to see "six pack ciders" - mass market
> ciders - in the US, with a nice ingredient list, only the first ingredient
> in the list is something like "hard cider". After that you may see sugar,
> water, malic acid, etc. But that doesn't mean that fermented apples are
> the top ingredient! "Hard cider" allows sugaring-up and watering-down
> before fermentation, so all the ingredient list really tells you is the
> secondary mucking-about after fermentation.
>
> It's a sorry mess.
>
>
> > here that calls all their products dry, yet that is how their label reads,
> > and it doesn't taste dry to me. I'll have to take a hydrometer to it someday.
>
> Do please, and tell us the results! (and who the "older company" is too)
> It's probably a case of the situation--Andrew mentions it off and on--where
> people want to SAY they like dry, but what they actually WANT is off-dry
> to semi-sweet.
>
> --
> Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
They call all of their products "dry", but then they do that funny thing with the ingredients that screams back sweetening where pear and raspberry juices are added to fermented apple juice. I forget it there is sugar added, as it has been awhile since I drank one.
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Andrew Lea
> Nick, do you know since when exactly has this EU stipulated requirement for
> sweeteners declared on the label been in force? I hadn't been aware of it.
> David L
David,
I have been delving through EU labelling law myself and i think this is
the relevant Directive 2008/5/EC
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:027:0012:0016:EN:PDF
It was adopted into Irish Law in Feb 2009 see
http://www.fsai.ie/uploadedFiles/SI61_2009.pdf
I *think* this is what Nick refers to.
BTW Nick there is nothing useful on this topic on the UK FSA website.
The latest labelling guidelines do not seem to have been updated, or not
that i can find.
I would guess it is not generally known by craft cidermakers in this
country that sweetener labelling is now mandatory. I think I know of
several producers selling in bottle who do not label. Maybe worth
putting this out at least through the three regional associations.
David Llewellyn
I must bear it in mind, now that I am about to create a new label for my
cider, as I do use sucralose in my non-bone-dry cider, just enough to take
it away from absolute dryness. I personally consider it a 'lesser evil' if
everything else about the cider is 'real'.
I think it is hard for a maker to explain this to the consumer - the
consumer generally wants it both ways: for a cider to not be dry, cos they
cant handle proper natural dryness, yet not to have any 'sugar' or sweetener
in there. Ideally people need educating that dryness is the natural state,
or, of course, to be able to produce proper keeved cider, (but how natural
is that either, when you think about it?!).
I must check does 'Bulmers Light' mention artificial sweeterners on the
label!
David L.
Nick Bradstock
I had in mind.
I'm surprised that the UK FSA have not covered this; certainly NACM members
are complying - note the condition on added sugar as well as added
sweeteners.
I have raised the matter occasionally with the regional associations and
I'll suggest that the 3 secretaries inform their members.
It would appear that the requirement applies to all products - whether
pre-packed or otherwise.
Best wishes
Nick
Orchard eye
We are taking a couple of barrels of our cider (1 completely dry and
one sweetened) to a Wassailing event this sunday where we will be
handing out small samples of our cider to visitors to help promote the
next autumns scrumping project.
We will use either sucralose or possibly Saccharine to sweeten, so to
confirm, do we by law have to put what we have sweetened the cider
with on the on the label.
If we do, do we use the words 'artificial sweeteners added'
We have just got our cider measured for alcohol Levels at Thatchers
Cider who kindly did a test for us and it came out as 7.06% ( I
presume we have to put that on the label.
I presume we have to put that figure on the label
I've posted a few pics on my blog, link below
http://theorchardgroup.wordpress.com/
Sorry if we have already gone over this.
Thanks
On Jan 14, 12:08 pm, "Nick Bradstock" <nickbr...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:027:0...
Andrew Lea
>
> I've posted a few pics on my blog, link below
>
> http://theorchardgroup.wordpress.com/
Lovely pics Neil (as I suppose we would expect from a professional!).
Glad it got the thumbs up from Paul (who is Thatchers Quality Manager,
no mere technician, and quite a leading light in cider technical circles!).
As a matter of interest was that a cider with added or wild yeast?
Andrew
Orchard eye
<"As a matter of interest was that a cider with added or wild yeast? >
It was a cider with added yeast.
We do have a barrel to which we added no yeast though were saving that
one for later.
It fermented for a longer period.
<"Paul (who is Thatchers Quality Manager">
oops ! I'd better correct that mistake !
Any thoughts on the labeling
Neil
Andrew Lea
> Thanks Andrew,
>
> Any thoughts on the labeling
According to
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:027:0012:0016:EN:PDF
the wording is "contains sweetener".
The alcohol labelling regs say "....with an indication of its alcoholic
strength by volume in the form of a figure to not more than one decimal
place (which may be preceded by the word "alcohol" or by the
abbreviation "alc") followed by the symbol "% vol".
In your case 7.06% should presumably be expressed as 7.1%.
I am no lawyer but this is my understanding.
Orchard eye
Thats really helpful,
On Jan 18, 7:41 pm, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Orchard eye wrote:
> > Thanks Andrew,
>
> > Any thoughts on the labeling
>
> According to
>
> http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2008:027:0...