KEEVING - Chapeau at the bottom

[Paul Miedtke]

Hey Guys,

This season I tried keeving for the first time and had success with the first 2 batches.

After 7 days I had a firm Chapeau at the top, an beneath crytal clear cider. I used apples with pretty high acidity, so I needed 300 mg / L calcium chloride in order to get the floculation. But it worked out.

Now I wanted to keeve some more acidic apple juice( ph 3.3). 24h Cold maceration, Pectine test ( plenty of pectin). Already one day after addition of PME, pretty much sediment dropped to the bottom and the juice was already pretty clear before I even added calcium chloride. 2 days later I added calcium chloride ( also 300 mg / L), because smaller amount didnt show any signs of floculation. Then I mixed it properly.

After some days I checked it and saw that the sediment dropped again fully to the bottom. The juice was again prettty clear and started to ferment after 9 days with 8 C degree ( white foam on the surfaces and small bubbles ).

Is the chapeau maybe to heavy to get lifted by the bubbles ?

I dont have another explication for that why it is not working...

Paul

[Andrew Lea]

Were the apple types and their harvest and storage history in the 3rd batch exactly the same as those in the first two batches?

It sounds as if you had insufficient yeast load in the third batch to lift the chapeau. It could also be due to a lower nutrient (nitrogen) content in the apples.

Are you saying that you now have an active fermentation above the sediment, but the sediment itself remains on the bottom?  One thing you can do  is to rack the fermenting liquid away from the sediment as soon as possible, before everything gets totally mixed up.  That way you may still remove some nutrients to slow the fermentation down.

Andrew 

------------------

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/ffe55ef8-7a8f-4055-8f2a-e1ac6ebe6125n%40googlegroups.com.
<Sediment.jpg><CaCh_Test.jpg>

[T Bell]

Paul, 

I had a similar problem this year.  Apples which in previous years successfully keeved failed this year.  Their pH was 3.2, lower than previous years probably due to poor growing conditions.  I also did cold maceration for 24 hrs and got a very strong positive pectin test.  I added PME and circulated the treated juice for 24 hrs at 10 deg C to ensure adequate contact and reaction time.  When I added CaCl, the rapid formation of gel globules did not take place. 

I put a one liter sample in a milk bottle so I could monitor the progress.  A murky brown sediment which looked exactly like yours sank to the bottom within 24 hrs.  As fermentation got under way, the bubbles streamed out of the sediment leaving tracks like worm holes against the glass of my sample bottle.  I concluded that the sediment lacked the gel strength to trap the bubbles and form a chapeau. 

I increased the CaCl in the sample to no avail.  I added more PME even though I did not expect that to help.  It didn't so I racked off the relatively clear juice before it was too late. As this batch ferments, it has coughed up cotton balls of weak gel which I carefully pump out. I should have done a bench test to confirm that keeving would succeed.

In a case like this, I wonder if it would help to increase the pH with calcium bicarbonate prior to PME treatment.  Or, would it inhibit the activity of PME?

Tom

[Paul Miedtke]

Hey Andrew, 

The apples from the third batch came from a different location...But I assume that they didn't contain much nitrogen since the orchard was pretty neglected.... 

I eventually racked of the more or less clear juice above the sediment and added a normal pectic enzyme..

When it comes to apples with high acidity / low ph, I think next time I will stick with the usual pectic enzymes... Like I said before, in order to get the flocculation I had to add 300mg / L. The chapeau in the first two batches formed well, but I had the feeling that the cider tasted a little bit salty, even though the chapeau probably fixed a great part of the cacl2...I guess I will have to mix those batches with untreated juice in order to lower the saltiness... 

Paul