Full dose of sulphite - any chance of a wild ferment?

[Håkan Widerström]

Hi all,

This is my first post to the group, though I have been following and reading for quite some time - fantastic forum and so much knowledge and things to learn! I did look for an answer to my question here, but either I'm not good enough at looking or the topic is not explored :).

I leave in southern Sweden, where I and a couple of friends have been making very small scale cider batches from table fruit for some years.  As expected we have not achieved the desired results - a French style dry cider. 

So, a couple of years back we started planting some cider apple trees that actually seem to be doing reasonably well in the climate here - and this year for the first time we got enough juice to make our first 10l batch which we planned to make a wild fermentation with; Kermerrien, Normand Rouge, dDouce Moen, Douce Cote Ligne, Frequin tardif, Dabinett, Browns - all well ripe.

We made the analysis (TA, pH, Sg, Phenols), made some acid correction down to pH3,8 and added sulfite. 

Here's where I completely messed up and accidentally added 150ppm rather than the planned half dose... Any chance you think that we can still get a wild fermentation going or should we just "bite the sour apple" and add cultivated yeast? 

If so, any suggestions on which yeast to use, as the carbon will need to stand outside in a shed with expected 5-10deg temperature (or inside at 22deg which seems to warm...)?

Thanks,

Håkan

[Andrew Lea]

Don’t fret.  No need to add any cultured yeast.  If you have been making cider before, then all your equipment will be fully contaminated with wild yeasts anyway so you have plenty of inoculum.  150 ppm of SO2 at pH3.8 is not an overdose - it’s what we all did way back.  Don't get too hung up on figures which aren’t too precise anyway. Your wild fermentation will be just fine!

Andrew 

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Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

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[Håkan Widerström]

Thank you so much Andrew :)!

[Håkan Widerström]

Hi again!

It has now been 2 months since we left the Juice to ferment, but still no signs that any fermentation has started - despite having increased the temperature and kept it at around 15degC for several weeks now 🙁. 

However, we also have a batch of Cox Orange juice that we prepared at the same time (and sulfited as the other 2 but adjusted for the lower pH) - and that one has started fermenting nicely (no yeast added). So, my question is if it would be an alternative to add some of the fermenting Cox juice to the other batches to get them started? And if so, how much - a couple of deciliters? Or would it be safe to add cultivated yeast instead?

Would love to get some insights 😊!

Best,

Håkan

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[Andrew Lea]

I am really surprised that after 2 months this has not started to ferment. Was there anything special about the juice? pH? SG? What is the SG now? Did you add much more SO2 than you thought? Can you measure it?

But yes  you should be able to add another other yeast or existing fermenting cider. I’d say 10 - 20% should do it.

Andrew (puzzled)

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[Håkan Widerström]

Yes, I'm surprised as well.

As far as I know there was nothing odd with the juice - it had pH4.2 that I adjusted down to 3.8 with malic acid. SG was 1061 and has not changed at all. 

I calculated the SO2 according to pH3.8, but as I wrote in my previous post I did make a mistake though and added a full dose rather than the half dose I planned - but there is of course a chance that I calculated wrong somewhere... On the other hand the Cox batch started fermenting nicely and I did the same thing to that. Unfortunately I have no means of measuring it - I'll see if I can arrange that for next time. 

Anyway - I have added about 10% of the fermenting Cox juice now, so let's hope that can start it up!

Thank you for the advice!

Best, 

Håkan

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[Andrew Lea]

Just checking - this was purely apple juice ? - no cranberry or rowan or other wild fruit that contains yeast inhibitors?

Good luck anyway!

Andrew

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[Håkan Widerström]

Yep, pure apple juice; blend of various French and English cider varieties, primarily bittersweets.

We'll soon see it works 🙂!

Thanks,

Håkan

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[CGJ]

Andrew,

Aside from pH effects that we all talk about frequently, how severe are
the yeast inhibiting effects of cranberry? At what level does the
inhibition become an issue?

Carl Johnson
West Barnstable
Massachusetts