Good batch of perry, is it the yeast, or the pears ?

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Fellow Cider makers,

How big of a difference does yeast selection have on the outcome of perry ?

So far I have not been very scientific, but last year half of the perry was sulfited and primed with
WLP775 English Cider Yeast the rest was not.

Trouble is, the cider yeast batch was a mix of pears, while the wild yeast batch was all from a single tree.

So I have too many variables to know whether it was the yeast or the pears that made the difference. So I am asking for opinions here.

Most of my perry suffers from being too sharp (?) in flavor, I do not have the experience to describe the flavor, Acetic ? Acidic? Astringent ?
I assumed that it was too tannic. This batch had what I would call a more rounded balanced tannin.

In general does the yeast used have a more significant effect than the pears chosen ?

With most of my trees being Bi-ennial producers it takes a long time to see the results of these experiments but I want to at least move in the direction of predictable improvement.

Any advice ?

--
Tom

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Tom wrote:

In general does the yeast used have a more significant effect than the pears chosen ?

I would say the fruit has a lot more importance than the yeast on the final flavor.

The only way to assess the effect of yeast is to make side-by-side testing with identical juices and identical procedures. And even then I don't find it easy to taste a real difference. But I think it is important to do such tests once in a while - that's what makes us learn more things.

As of effect on acidity, some yeasts are known to reduce slightly the acidity - e.g. Lalvin 71B

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/01/2014 03:41, t...@functionalmedia.com wrote:

>I do not have the experience to describe the flavor, Acetic ? Acidic? Astringent ?
>

Then you must train yourself. The following are reasonable flavour
descriptor standards:

Acetic - vinegar (taste and smell, various origins and at various
dilutions). Often it is the volatile component (ethyl acetate) which is
much more important in 'acetic flavour' than the acetic acid itself.*

Acidic - citric acid solution or lemon or lime juice (taste only)

Astringent - the mouth puckering and drying sensation of cold tea (taste)


*[Perries are very commonly subject to acetification due to their
natural citric acid being attacked by lactic acid bacteria. Use of SO2
can help prevent this]

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Andrew and Claude,

Thanks for the replies, and the description of tastes is helpful.

My partner in fermentation thinks that the reason the cultured yeast is better is not the yeast as much as the sulfite before we added the yeast.

And Andrew's footnote ....

*[Perries are very commonly subject to acetification due to their
natural citric acid being attacked by lactic acid bacteria. Use of SO2
can help prevent this]

Points to that as well.

To followup to help solve the acetification riddle.
Suppose my perry is getting acetification.. would the following experiment support that.

The old bottles, the ones that have sat for over a year are no longer acetic ?
They have not been sulfited, just bottled like everything else, last years bottles they are "tart" (probably acetic).
The bottles from the year before, 2 years old, that I remember as being tart have now become very very mellow, almost too mellow.

I know that I need to be scientific and from here on I have the tools to do that. But just trying to learn from what I have done in the past.
If a "tart" bottle ages over time to a very mellow bottle, is that MLF ?
If Acetification is the issue would an old bottle turn to vinegar, or mellow out ?

Thanks everyone.. This group is very helpful.

--
Tom

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/01/2014 18:52, t...@functionalmedia.com wrote:

>
> I know that I need to be scientific and from here on I have the tools to
> do that. But just trying to learn from what I have done in the past.
> If a "tart" bottle ages over time to a very mellow bottle, is that MLF ?
> If Acetification is the issue would an old bottle turn to vinegar, or
> mellow out ?

Once a perry is acetified, I think it tends to stay that way rather than
'mellow out'. But others may have more experience of aged perries than
I do. The lactic bacterial acetification in perries that I mentioned is
_not_ the same as acetification due to acetic acid bacteria. For one
thing, it happens in the absence of air exposure. It is a citrate to
acetate conversion, not ethanol to acetate.

I think it might be worth taking a step back and asking what sort of
fruit you are using? Are these dessert pears, perry pears or what? Are
they named varieties? Do you have have any analytical data on them? Are
they inherently high or low acid? And what country are you in?

[greg l.]

You need to learn about the different acids in cider. Acetic acid (and ethyl acetate) are known as volatile acidity because you can smell them at fairly low concentrations. Smelling your cider is important because it will tell you if it is becoming acetic - that characteristic "fish and chips" smell of vinegar. The tartness or sourness of cider comes mainly from malic acid which is very sour. Have a look in the lolly section of the supermarket for some sour candy, you should be able to find some with malic acid in the ingredients. Try some sour candy and it will help you pick the malic acid flavour of cider before MLF. After MLF the main acid is lactic acid, a much softer tasting acid, the main acid in yoghurt.

Tannins react with your saliva to give that furry tongue feeling, and add bitterness rather than sourness.

Greg

[t...@functionalmedia.com]

Andrew asked..

"I think it might be worth taking a step back and asking what sort of
fruit you are using? Are these dessert pears, perry pears or what? Are
they named varieties? Do you have have any analytical data on them?  Are
they inherently high or low acid? And what country are you in? "

I am in the USA, Southeastern Ohio.

The pears are from wild seedlings that I have growing on my property . They are old trees, but probably seedlings spread by deer and birds from some forgotten orchard and not planted.

They range in flavor, but none that would be called dessert quality, or pears you would choose to  eat.

I have planted named varieties that have have not produced yet.
They are about 3 years old and once I have a barland, huffcap, taynton squash to compare my pears to I will.

This is the first year that I will test for sugar, acid, and tannins on a tree by tree basis.

This one batch that turned out so well, and others that turned out good, implies to me that I do have some potential in the trees that I have.

I will analyze the trees that I have and topwork with the named varieties as they get old enough to produce scionwood, starting this winter.

I figured I was lucky to at least have many trees that allow me to produce many gallons of perry. It is time to sort out the good trees from the bad however, so I will be testing each tree individually this year. Looking for sugar, tannin, and acid.

By tasting only I would say that many of the trees are acidic, and tannic. Few are very sweet.

Also thanks to the help from this thread I will sort out if my perry tends to be acetic , or if it is my pears that are acidic. I think it is both, I have some acidic pears, but also some batches have acetified.

I intend to sulphite more of the batches this fall. This should give more consistent results. Also I intend to isolate the must on a tree by tree basis to choose my favorite pears.

It was somewhat challenging to find good advice 4 years ago when we started so we chose to smash, press and ferment with the fruit and the yeast that nature gave us. The results have been good enough to continue, but I look forward to getting more scientific. I think nature also gave us some acetification, I look forward to getting rid of that.

Any advice from the more experienced is appreciated.

It is somewhat fun to have enough raw materials to produce perry here in Ohio, but it is also challenging because there are not any other traditional perry makers in the area to consult with.

Current goal for this fall is to avoid acetification and isolate the trees this year, and blend after fermentation to get the flavor I like.

Thanks everyone..

--
Tom