Methanol levels in ice cider

[jamescarson...@gmail.com]

Before I offer my ice cider to friends to try which I made per Claude s method of freezing the juice mutilple times to concentrate juice prior to fermentation what are the risks of it containing methanol . Thanks just want to check.

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

Why do you think that the level of methanol of your ice cider would be greater than that of a normal fermented beverage like wine or cider?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 7 mai 2017 12:36:09 UTC-4, jamescarson...@gmail.com a écrit :

Before I offer my ice cider to friends to try which I made per Claude s method of freezing the juice mutilple times to concentrate juice prior to fermentation what are the risks of it containing methanol . Thanks just want to check.

I don't have a real answer for you, but I've heard that a major cidery in Quebec has had some problems with methanol level - analyses showed some batches had methanol concentration in excess of the maximum allowable and had to be rejected.
From what I understand, the batches in question had very high initial brix (substantially more than the 30 Brix normally required).
I must say that I don't really know more. Nor do I understand what may produce such high methanol concentrations...
Claude
 

[Andrew Lea]

As far as I know, methanol in cider principally comes from apple pectin breakdown. Only minor amounts are likely to come from yeast. Therefore the methanol content depends (a) on pectin content and (b) on the breakdown processes. Obviously if the juice is more concentrated then there will be more pectin. So to that extent its likely level is proportional to juice concentration. 

However, the actual liberation of methanol from pectin is proportional to the extent of the breakdown process which is 'de-esterification'.  This could be by deliberately added enymes or by natural processes e.g. some mould or bacterial growth in the apples themselves. Without knowing a lot of detail about the fruit and production processes involved, it's impossible to be clearer. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[jamescarson...@gmail.com]

If methanol can be produced in ice cider which is 10% to 12% ish range then at smaller quantities it can be present in ciders between 4.5 to 8.3% range has there ever been worked done to see the levels that may be present .

[Andrew Lea]

Levels vary widely because as I said it depends on the extent of pectin breakdown, but you could assume 50 - 200 mg/L of methanol in cider.

Humans typically ingest around 1000 mg of methanol daily through normal consumption of fruits and vegetables.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

> On 8 May 2017, at 15:30, jamescarson...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> If methanol can be produced in ice cider which is 10% to 12% ish range then at smaller quantities it can be present in ciders between 4.5 to 8.3% range has there ever been worked done to see the levels that may be present .
>

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 8 mai 2017 12:23:54 UTC-4, Andrew Lea a écrit :

Levels vary widely because as I said it depends on the extent of pectin breakdown, but you could assume 50 - 200 mg/L of methanol in cider.

If I follow you well, many factors, in addition to absolute content of pectin could have an influence, like:
- if a pectinase treatment is done, and if a racking is done prior to fermentation to eliminate the pectin deposit.
- if keeved juice - assuming most of the pectin goes in the chapeau brun, a keeved cider should have comparatively less methanol???
- even the degree of apple maturation could have an influence as this changes things in pectin.

Additionally when talking ice cider, cryoconcentration (i.e. frozen juice) could be different from cryoextraction (frozen apples) on this aspect...

It seems to me this could be a nice subject for a research thesis...

Claude

[Miguel Pereda]

A study of SERIDA indicates that ice ciders produced by cryoconcentration easily reach the maximum permitted legal limits of methanol

http://www.serida.org/publicacionesdetalle.php?id=6729

Miguel A. Pereda

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Really interesting Miguel, thanks for the link.
According to this, levels of methanol would be about 6 times higher with cryoconcentration than with cryoextraction ... a huge difference!
I am not really surprised by this however... I have noticed that pressing the juice from frozen apples gives a juice that seems deprived from its pectin, very clear - like if the pectins would remain trapped in the apple.

For the cryoconcentration process, the paper doesn't mention however if the juice had been subjected to depectinization prior to freezing. Since the authors don't mention it, I would guess they did not. For my part, I think it is important to do a complete depectinization and a racking before freezing the juice, as this makes the clarification much easier at the end of fermentation. It seems this depectinization could have an added advantage in possibly reducing the methanol levels.
Claude

[woodcarver]

In making apple brandy there are two basic approaches. 1) distill cider 2) distill liquified apple pomace. Approach two is more challenging in some ways because of the viscosity of the liquid. Pectin methylesterase is frequently used as an additive in this process to help liquify the pomace. The drawback is that the pectin is transformed into pectate and methanol. Then the liquified pomace is distilled and that additional methanol makes into the distillate in relatively high concentrations. Pectin methylesterase occurs in the wild, from some bacteria and fungi, so it may act on cider whether it has been added by the cider maker (or brandy distiller) or not.

So, if cryocentration increases pectin levels, which would increase methanol, then it would follow (I believe) that removing H2O would further concentrate the methanol. Andrew has already pointed to this, I just thought I would add the brandy perspective.

[Miguel Pereda]

Yes,  indeed Claude, I think you're right. If high levels of methanol are to be avoided in the cryoconcentration process, the solution should  be the depectinization  before the  freezing of the must.

[Seva Nechaev]

Its a shame we don't have any cheap method for measuring methanol contents. 

вторник, 9 мая 2017 г., 9:44:37 UTC+3 пользователь Miguel Pereda написал:

[Andrew Lea]

Perhaps. I do think people need to keep methanol toxicity from cider in perspective. The amounts in cider are generally trivial. The maximum figure quoted in the Spanish work was around 300 mg/L. I believe the maximum allowed in Quebec ice cider is 720 mg/L. 

Estimated intake of methanol from normal human dietary consumption of fruit and vegetables is around 1000 mg (1g) per day. Some symptoms of visual disturbance may occur after ingesting 8g of methanol at one time. This would imply drinking 10 litres of Quebec ice cider at one sitting. The minimum lethal level of methanol for a 60kg human is 18 - 60 g ingestion at one time. The human body has systems for detoxifying and metabolising methanol because at low levels it is a normal dietary component. Problems only arise when these systems become overwhelmed. 

[Data source https://cot.food.gov.uk/cotstatements/cotstatementsyrs/cotstatements2011/cot201102]

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Andrew Lea]

Sorry, a couple of typos crept in there. The Spanish maximum was 200 mg/L. The Quebec ice cider limit is 700 mg/L

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[jamescarson...@gmail.com]

Thank you all for your advices and my last question am an amateur maker and controlled fermentation of ice cider by multiple rankings. I understand that methanol levels may be low and next year will freeze the apples prior to pressing. If though I added granulated sugar to a fermenter of presently fermenting Demi John to bring up the SG up to required level would I avoid the methanol problem or would the sugar present pectin and the same problem maybe a stupid question so sorry If it is.

[Matthew Moser Miller]

Hi James,

I think freezing your apples may be a more labor-intensive approach; if I understand Claude correctly, a pectic enzyme treatment should reduce the potential for methanol much more easily. And (as far as I know) there wouldn't be any pectin in table sugar (which is sucrose).

Are you saying adding the sugar to already cryoconcentrated must, or a vessel of fermenting (regular concentration) apple must? Because if the second, you're making apple wine, rather than ice cider. I'm also pretty sure that chaptalization is banned for ice cider in Quebec regulations (not that that matters for amateur, but it won't be fitting with the definition), so then what you'd be making would be viewed as...cidre fort? Just a high-alcohol cider that has high residual sugar and acidity.

Matt Moser Miller

On Tue, May 9, 2017 at 11:33 AM, <jamescarson...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you all for your advices and my  last question am an amateur maker and controlled fermentation of ice cider by multiple rankings. I understand that methanol levels may be low and next year will freeze the apples  prior to pressing. If though I added granulated sugar to a fermenter of presently fermenting Demi John to bring up the SG up to required level would I avoid the methanol problem or would the sugar present pectin and the same problem maybe a stupid question so sorry If it is.

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 9 mai 2017 11:55:21 UTC-4, Matthew Moser Miller a écrit :

I think freezing your apples may be a more labor-intensive approach

I don't agree here... I do let my apples freeze and this is certainly not an overly labor-intensive process. Actually, the combination of:
1st press the partly thawed apples to yield a juice at a SG between 1.085 and 1.095,
and 2nd concentrate this juice to over 30 brix (SG approximately 1.135) by cryoconcentration
is the process that has given me the best yields, is fairly straight forward, and gives a good quality of juice, well clarified right at the beginning.

 

if I understand Claude correctly, a pectic enzyme treatment should reduce the potential for methanol much more easily.

Caution here please. This is a hypothesis which isn't backed by any experimental data for the moment. All we have from this Spanish study is that cryoextraction gives an ice cider with lower methanol than cryoconcentration. But yet there is nothing that shows for sure that a depectinized juice would have lower methanol concentrations...

 

Are you saying adding the sugar to already cryoconcentrated must, or a vessel of fermenting (regular concentration) apple must? Because if the second, you're making apple wine, rather than ice cider. I'm also pretty sure that chaptalization is banned for ice cider in Quebec regulations (not that that matters for amateur, but it won't be fitting with the definition), so then what you'd be making would be viewed as...cidre fort? Just a high-alcohol cider that has high residual sugar and acidity.

Yes, certainly that sugar addition would disqualify it from being an ice cider.

Claude

[Andrew Lea]

It is as you say, very complex.

Other things being equal, I would expect a keeved cider to contain more methanol, not less. That's because all the methanol has to be split off from the pectin before you can form the calcium gel which is the chapeau brun. That methanol cannot go anywhere and must remain in the cider. 

Likewise I would expect any cider or apple juice treated with pectic enzyme clarifying cocktails to generally contain more methanol, not less.  Pectic enzyme cocktails sold for juice clarification typically contain both PME and PG activities. The exception would be those containing PL where the methanol is not split off. 

But overarching all that is the total amount of pectin in solution which as you say depends on fruit type and maturity. 

Yes it is complex!

[Glossary:

PME Pectin methyl esterase

PG Polygalacturonase

PL Pectin lyase]

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Matthew Moser Miller]

I'm sorry, Claude- I forget that people can rely on outdoor freezing! Even as far north as Ohio, the apples (apart from maybe Goldrush?) would generally rot before we get enough concentrated cold weather to freeze the apples solid enough to partial thaw and press. I'd assumed (also since he was talking about a current batch of ice cider, which it seems fairly late in the year to be making using natural concentration?) that the OP was talking about freezing the apples manually using a freezer, which seemed fairly labor intensive to me. Or, if not labor intensive: requiring a lot more freezer volume than concentrating the juice itself.

Matt Moser Miller

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