Is cidermaking agriculture?
Rose Grant
Today I inadvertently discovered something that answers questions that
I have never dared to ask!!!
Is a small scale commercial cidermaking subject to business rates? Do
I need to apply for change of use for the barn I use for cidermaking?
The key to these questions is whether cidermaking is an agricultural
activity. Agriculture is exempt from business rates. I have never
applied for change of use for the barn. It used to house livestock, so
is still nominally 'agricultural'. If cidermaking is agricultural,
then I should be in the clear.
This morning I was in Dorchester to speak in support of a local
cidermaking family at their planning appeal. The need arose during the
course of the meeting to define the commercial status of cidermaking.
It transpired that the subject had become a 'cause celebre' in 1999 in
what was known as the Millington Case, where a High Court judgement
against a farmer in favour of Shrewsbury Council was overturned by the
Court of Appeal.
The Millington Case concerned a farmer who had planted vines on one
third of his farm. Wine was produced and sold from the farm. The case
had enforced a change of use, on the grounds that the sale of wine and
light refreshments by fee paying members of the public was material.
However, The Court of Appeal stated that the correct approach was to
consider the activities of the appellant and whether they were
incidental to the growing of grapes, ancillary to normal farming
activities and reasonably necessary to make the product marketable. It
was held that the production of wine or cider on the scale of the
appellant's business was found to be perfectly normal.
The appeal decision has shown that where farm processing is not on a
large scale it could be considered ancillary to agriculture.
Further to this, it would also appear that if you have a farm shop
selling only the cider made on your farm, it too would qualify as
'ancillary to agriculture'.
Interesting, isn't it?
I'm breathing a little easier today!
Rose
Andrew Lea
>
> The appeal decision has shown that where farm processing is not on a
> large scale it could be considered ancillary to agriculture.
>
> Further to this, it would also appear that if you have a farm shop
> selling only the cider made on your farm, it too would qualify as
> 'ancillary to agriculture'.
>
> Interesting, isn't it?
>
> I'm breathing a little easier today!
Very interesting Rose. I wonder if this could also be seen in the
context of the 70 hL HMRC exemption too. For those under that limit the
business is clearly ancillary since it was always intended that such a
level of activity could not form the basis of a viable living on its
own. But once over the limit, other considerations might come into play
if the business made enough money to pay a genuine living wage to someone?
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Ray Blockley
being classed as agriculture, for those registered for VAT.
I'll ask the wife if she can find out any more from her work at HMRC...
BTW: Some of my neighbours have complained to the council that I should be
subject to Business Rates due to the fact that I am operating a "business"
from my home...
It must be all of the 32-tonners delivering apples everyday and the
bulk-tankers arriving thrice daily to take away the cider... :-)
Don't you just love them!
Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/
skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk
Interseting reading. However in East Lindsey (Lincolnshire) we produce
under a farmhouse licence but must pay industrial rates because the
local authority have determined that cider production is not
agricultural. When challenged their respose was "sue us but understand
that if you lose we will pursue you for all of our legal costs and,
beleive me, that will bankrupt you".
They also tried to back date the rates for three extra years but
backed down because we had lost the small business releif on our other
business leading to an additional 60% rise in rates on that as well.
That is despite the fact that we have six acres of orchards and a
further 400 trees under contract.
It appears to depend on how supportive of small business innovation
they are in your area.
All the best.
Guy
nfcider
After seeing Rose's comments I would definetly have a go at your
council regarding the rates,we are under a yet more beauracratic
regime down here in the New Forest namely a national park
authority,I'm keeping my head down although having been established 22
years,I've recently seen a fellow winemaker nearby nearly stopped in
his tracks with his farm shop stocking all locally produced
products,this seems completly irrational to me within the ethos of
shopping local ,cutting food miles and local terroir etc,beaurocracy
has gone mad,as he said in his appeal the vineyard shop was not viable
solely on tourist wine tastings just in the summer season.
Barry Topp
On Feb 17, 5:01 pm, "skidbrookecy...@tiscali.co.uk"
> Rose- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Jez Howat
make their holiday homes worth more???
Sorry if that sounded sceptical, but seeing the ongoing push to have horse
riders and dog walkers controlled and all the lay-by's removed to stop
people from... well, stopping is a terrible thing for all - especially
people who actually live and work in the area.
My parents belong to something called the 'New Forest Marque', designed to
promote products made within the forest (like their Ling heather honey)...
it was a really good idea but now seems no more than a few people who like
the idea as opposed to a serious effort to encourage New Forest produce
(though I am sure you are more familiar with this than I am Barry).
But I think that is getting off the main point!
Jez
Rose
I think you have just illustrated the main thrust of the Millington
argument. Your local winemaker was in fact running a farm shop selling
a variety of bought in products. Farm shops are liable to business
rates ( one near here that sells my cider told me how crippling the
payments are!). The important thing highlighted by the Millington
appeal was that selling wine or cider, made from your own grapes or
apples, from your own premises, was deemed to be 'ancillary to
agriculture'. The Shrewsbury Council had thought otherwise and won the
support of the High Court, but the judgment was overruled by the Court
of Appeal.
If Guy is only selling his own cider made from the apples grown on his
farm, then that same ruling must apply. The Millington Appeal has
established a precedent, that unless repealed, has become the Law of
the Land. All county councils in England must therefore comply. Of
course, I'm no expert but I do think it would be worthwhile for Guy to
talk to a solicitor about it. It may be that he is in a strong
position to take that unpleasant and threatening council to task, with
very little risk of losing the argument.
Rose
nfcider
I fully agree with your interpretation,but in this case it wasn't so
much about the rates aspect,but more to do with what he was actually
selling ,initially the enforcement officer went in there with the
intention of shutting the shop down on the grounds that it must only
sell and give tastings of their own wine and nothing else.
Jez,
On your point re the New Forest Marque I was on the original marketing
group which was set up with very good intentions,but very soon
realized that the European Leader Funding( of which there was a
substantial amount) was not going to come down to the producers as the
intention was on paper,but only to be swallowed up by the grubby
little beaurocrats on the New Forest District Council and National
Park Authority administering their ideas and junkets.The bulk of the
leader money went to the Forestry Commision and that other Quangoised
English Nature now called Natural England (Iwonder how mutch that cost
in relogoing!),a lot of the money being spent on creating wetlands(I
would point out that in the 1970's the then Min of Agriculture gave
the FC millions to improve the drainage and grazing) by now baling up
the heather and filling in the streams etc,this has now obviously
raised the water table considerably and no one can understand why
there is more flooding on the roads etc,even my neighbour who lives in
an old forest cob built cottage has serious rising damp problems
undermining the foundations.One of their other wonderful misguided
ideas now is to leave all fallen wind blown trees for the beetles to
so call rot down ,which we were allowed to buy and cut up for our
woodburning stoves (widely acknowledged to be the the most eco
friendly form of heating),now to be denied this right ,after
conforming to all their compliance byelaws etc is most irritatating to
say the least!
Barry
> > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
TimWale
quite often. If you have run a business and your unbroken tenure on the site
is for more than ten years you can apply for a certificate of lawful use. A
CLU is not planning permission, it is merely formal recognition that your
activity is lawful by virtue of time, and therefore beyond enforcement. It
cannot be conditioned and it will allow your activity to continue
undisturbed. Tim (Tutts Clump Cider)
David Llewellyn
Hello British Folks! Another aspect of this question:
PLANNING PERMISSION....
In Ireland, agricultural buildings are exempt from planning permission
provided certain conditions eg. size, distance from road etc are satisfied.
Please tell me, do you have something similar over there, and what I'm
particularly wondering, if so, then can a building used to process a farm's
own produce into cider or apple juice, be classed as exempt because these
activities are 'ancillary to agriculture'???
David L.
MARK SHIRLEY
PLANNING PERMISSION....
David L.
Not relevant to your scale of operation David, but perhaps instructive for the smaller-scale cidermakers on here:
When we visited the local council office for a chat with EH and to register as a food business, we were also collared by the planning office. After explaining what we were planning to do, the officer cleverly steered our conversation in such a way that, without actaully saying it himself, we told him what he wanted to hear. Which was, that our cidermaking was a 'Hobby', and that sales were an integral part of that 'Hobby', not a fully fledged business as such, and therefore there were no planning issues.
As with so much involving local authorities, whether this applies to all planning offices is anyones guess.
Melanie Wilson
provided certain conditions eg. size, distance from road etc are satisfied.
Please tell me, do you have something similar over there,
We used to have no PP for barns and agricultural buildings but it was
tightened up a few years ago :(
>As with so much involving local authorities, whether this applies to all
>planning offices is anyones guess.
I'm guessing it would be a matter of interpretation. Some planning
authorities are worse than others, often it seems to depend on how and if
your neighbours push the point IMHO !
Mel
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David Llewellyn
Would planning permission be an issue for any producer in the UK under the
7000l mark? Would that level be considered an agricultural activity?
David L.
Mark Shirley wrote:
"Not relevant to your scale of operation David, but perhaps instructive for
the smaller-scale cidermakers on here......."
Rose
for agricultural barns being introduced. It must have been about 15
years ago. At the time I was building the barn in my orchard. News of
the impending legislation greatly increased my speed of construction
so that the barn would be completed before the deadline.
The main frame of the barn was made of secondhand telegraph poles.
These had simply been put into holes in the ground about 2 ft deep.
I did nor relish the thought of council building inspectors arriving
to see the non existent foundations!
Rose
Rose
permission! It was one of the points raised at the meeting I attended
on Tuesday. The appellants had erected a poly tunnel in their orchard
without permission. They had thought that it would not be necessary to
get permission for such a temporary building, especially as the frame
had not been set in the ground with concrete.
The way things are getting these days reminds me of 'Dad's Army'.
"Permission to speak, Sir?"
Rose
James Fidell
> It may also be of interest that poly tunnels also need planning
> permission! It was one of the points raised at the meeting I attended
> on Tuesday. The appellants had erected a poly tunnel in their orchard
> without permission. They had thought that it would not be necessary to
> get permission for such a temporary building, especially as the frame
> had not been set in the ground with concrete.
Polytunnels are a tricky question. When I anonymously enquired before I
put mine up, I was told "planning consent is not required as long as the
tunnel is smaller than <some size> and within the domestic curtilage of
the property", so I got mine set up pretty sharpish in what used to be
the veggie plot (before I moved that elsewhere) and waited to have to
argue the point (we've had complaints about lack of planning consent
before, when we had a relatively small extension build that was really
nothing to do with anyone). Being no more than a few yards from the
original "two-holer" I'd dare anyone to suggest the area wasn't
"domestic" :)
Permitted development rights were greatly relaxed in 2008 or 2009 for
domestic property and that may mean you'd have no problems with one now
as long as you didn't cover more than 50% of the land area of the
property.
On non-domestic land however I think the outcry over polytunnels a few
years back means that planning consent will pretty much always be
required.
In other news, I had a crab apple, two Ashmead's Kernel and two Blenheim
Orange arrive yesterday from Ashridge. They phoned and were very
apologetic that they couldn't supply the Kingston Black I'd ordered as
they were unhappy with the quality of the trees. This morning, it has
snowed :(
James
pigsinpingle
restricted, they are conversation areas and national parks,
unfortunately I am in both. However a couple of years before the
National Park was forced upon us a planning consultant friend advised
me to put up as many buildings as I could under permitted development
before the park became a reality, and we did. Within a short time of
the Park being established the beauros made large areas of the
populated bits of the forest 'conservation areas' we are still
entitled to some development rights but if you rang the to ask what
they were were the planners refused to tell you. Nowadays we are even
meant to inform the park nazis before painting our window
frames...yeah right, no one does and very very many residents quietly
defy them.
Ray Blockley
"It may also be of interest that poly tunnels also need planning
permission!"
Sheesh! We have already cleared the ground to put up a poly-tunnel behind
our new cider-shed on our plot... We were told that we didn't need any
permission to put up the shed (concrete section on concrete raft) but I am
not so sure now. I hope that this requirement for poly-tunnels doesn't apply
to urban-ish areas like ours - I am fed up with the council snooping their
noses into every little thing I do at the moment, never mind inspecting our
plans for a little poly-tunnel to grow a few veg in.
Julian Back
Julian
Ray Blockley
> In other news, I had a crab apple, two Ashmead's Kernel and two Blenheim
> Orange arrive yesterday from Ashridge. They phoned and were very
> apologetic that they couldn't supply the Kingston Black I'd ordered as
> they were unhappy with the quality of the trees.
Interesting. I received a phone call from Ashridge a couple of weeks ago
saying that they could not supply my 6 x Sweet Alfords due to a "packaging
error", even though they'd been on order for the best part of a year.
Melanie Wilson
permission to put up the shed (concrete section on concrete raft) but I am
not so sure now.
Probably fell into permitted development
>I hope that this requirement for poly-tunnels doesn't apply
to urban-ish areas like ours - I am fed up with the council snooping their
noses into every little thing I do at the moment, never mind inspecting our
plans for a little poly-tunnel to grow a few veg in.
You could always put it up, and if you get a problem apply for retrospective
planning permission, appeal, argue generally make a fuss. Where there is a
will there is usually a way. Take a picture with date of anything you put
up.