Backsweetening with apple juice

[Suzanne Diesen]

I was thinking of saving some of my cider and then adding it to the fermented juice just prior to pasteurization.  I understand that it would dilute the final alcohol product and impart flavor.  Has anyone done this and if so, what problems did you encounter? 

Thank you for any answer.

[DICK KIRK]

I frequently use juice this way. I gently boil down fresh juice to ~1/3 of original volume. This pasteurizes it. I bottle it & then can use it for both sweetening and in-bottle secondary fermentation.  I can measure the approximate Brix/concentration of sugar so I can chart how much concentrate to add for what outcome I want. I like mildly sweet, carbonated cider & this process works well.  Using concentrate thus does not dilute.  On occasion of slightly burning the concentrate, it added  a nice “smokey” flavor (I know this is cheating, Purists!)

Dick Kirk

On Jun 12, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Suzanne Diesen <sun...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was thinking of saving some of my cider and then adding it to the fermented juice just prior to pasteurization.  I understand that it would dilute the final alcohol product and impart flavor.  Has anyone done this and if so, what problems did you encounter? 

Thank you for any answer.

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[Matt Moser Miller]

When you say “saving,” Suzanne, what do you mean? How are you planning to preserve it for the months it takes your cider to ferment?

One thing I think may be something to watch out for: solids/cloudiness. If you want a clear cider, I think you’ll want to do everything you can to clarify the juice you’ll be backsweetening with before adding it to the  cider. There are definitely posts about juice clarification you can check out in the archive.

And Dick...I don’t think that necessarily pasteurizes the juice. I mean, it makes a syrup; but if you’re doing it open air/ pre-packaging, wouldn’t that run the risk of contamination? I’ve made cider syrup before, but I wouldn’t assume it’s safe to store at room temperature—which I think is something you should be able to rely on from a pasteurized concentrate, yes? Also, how do you deal with the sediment/clarity issue from the boiling process? I’m not talking about haze (though also that); I mean the solids that a 2/3vol reduction has, in my experience, turned to lumps in the syrup.

Matt Moser Miller

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:43 PM, DICK KIRK <happyh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I frequently use juice this way. I gently boil down fresh juice to ~1/3 of original volume. This pasteurizes it. I bottle it & then can use it for both sweetening and in-bottle secondary fermentation.  I can measure the approximate Brix/concentration of sugar so I can chart how much concentrate to add for what outcome I want. I like mildly sweet, carbonated cider & this process works well.  Using concentrate thus does not dilute.  On occasion of slightly burning the concentrate, it added  a nice “smokey” flavor (I know this is cheating, Purists!)

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[DICK KIRK]

Thanks for your caution. According to the FDA (Food & Drug Admin), heating apple juice to 160 F for 6 seconds pasteurizes it. Sterile containers; fridge for longer safety. I am a hobby cider maker, and enjoy ciders & vinegars with sediment. Doesn’t bother me to have “some” cloudiness. I have not found lumps in my concentrates. I suppose the acid level of apple juice also offers some protection.  Only trouble I’ve had with cloudiness was when I juiced a big batch of frozen apples.  The pressed juice was more “mushy” than thin juice.

Dick

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[Mike KG]

Any reason why you can't just freeze the juice to preserve it for later back sweetening? I understand it may also destroy the yeast (and other microorganisms) preventing further fermentation (no need for SO2 as in ice cider). You could even concentrate it the same way if wanted.

[Dana A. Glei]

In my experience, freezing the juice does not kill the yeast. I've done wild yeast ferments with previously frozen juice.

If you want to concentrate the sugars, I agree that freezing it would be a good way to go (that's how people in mild winter climates make "icebox" cider). I'd rather do that than boil it down. Heat destroys the flavor of apple juice.

The problem with back-sweetening with juice or anything that contains fermentable sugars is that you better plan on drinking it soon after you back sweeten or you're going to have a bottle bomb on your hands. Even if you pasteurize the juice addition, if you add it to cider that still has live yeast, I think it's going to start fermenting in the bottle. I've had ciders that even after two years in the bottle still had live yeast. I know because it was a stuck fermentation that I had bottled a couple years before. I added a little bit of yeat nutrient to the bottle in an attempt to get some carbonation from bottle conditioning. It had gotten stuck too high and was a little too sweet for our taste anyway. I discovered after many months that I had near bottle bomb.

I often use juice for bottle conditioning, but I agree with Matt if you don't use an already clarified juice you introduce more sediment.

Dana Glei
Budding Cider Maker in Sonoma County, CA
Cider Club Coordinator, Tilted Shed Ciderworks

[Pommatrix]

By saving, I meant to hold back some to add to back sweeten the cider.  I was wondering if it would be possible to just put some in a tank and maintain sulfite level enough to stop yeast but would that keep it from other microbial contamination from spoilage?  It sounds like freezing the juice or at least pasteurizing and storing the juice to add would be the way to go as talked about here.  Thank you for your answer!

On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-7, Matt Moser Miller wrote:

When you say “saving,” Suzanne, what do you mean? How are you planning to preserve it for the months it takes your cider to ferment?

One thing I think may be something to watch out for: solids/cloudiness. If you want a clear cider, I think you’ll want to do everything you can to clarify the juice you’ll be backsweetening with before adding it to the  cider. There are definitely posts about juice clarification you can check out in the archive.

And Dick...I don’t think that necessarily pasteurizes the juice. I mean, it makes a syrup; but if you’re doing it open air/ pre-packaging, wouldn’t that run the risk of contamination? I’ve made cider syrup before, but I wouldn’t assume it’s safe to store at room temperature—which I think is something you should be able to rely on from a pasteurized concentrate, yes? Also, how do you deal with the sediment/clarity issue from the boiling process? I’m not talking about haze (though also that); I mean the solids that a 2/3vol reduction has, in my experience, turned to lumps in the syrup.

Matt Moser Miller

Sent from my iPhone

On Jun 12, 2020, at 6:43 PM, DICK KIRK <happyh...@gmail.com> wrote:

I frequently use juice this way. I gently boil down fresh juice to ~1/3 of original volume. This pasteurizes it. I bottle it & then can use it for both sweetening and in-bottle secondary fermentation.  I can measure the approximate Brix/concentration of sugar so I can chart how much concentrate to add for what outcome I want. I like mildly sweet, carbonated cider & this process works well.  Using concentrate thus does not dilute.  On occasion of slightly burning the concentrate, it added  a nice “smokey” flavor (I know this is cheating, Purists!)

Dick Kirk

On Jun 12, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Suzanne Diesen <sun...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was thinking of saving some of my cider and then adding it to the fermented juice just prior to pasteurization.  I understand that it would dilute the final alcohol product and impart flavor.  Has anyone done this and if so, what problems did you encounter? 

Thank you for any answer.

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[Pommatrix]

This sounds like the way to go.  Thank you for your reply!

On Friday, June 12, 2020 at 3:43:28 PM UTC-7, DICK KIRK wrote:

I frequently use juice this way. I gently boil down fresh juice to ~1/3 of original volume. This pasteurizes it. I bottle it & then can use it for both sweetening and in-bottle secondary fermentation.  I can measure the approximate Brix/concentration of sugar so I can chart how much concentrate to add for what outcome I want. I like mildly sweet, carbonated cider & this process works well.  Using concentrate thus does not dilute.  On occasion of slightly burning the concentrate, it added  a nice “smokey” flavor (I know this is cheating, Purists!)

Dick Kirk

On Jun 12, 2020, at 8:11 AM, Suzanne Diesen <sun...@gmail.com> wrote:

I was thinking of saving some of my cider and then adding it to the fermented juice just prior to pasteurization.  I understand that it would dilute the final alcohol product and impart flavor.  Has anyone done this and if so, what problems did you encounter? 

Thank you for any answer.

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[Pommatrix]

I was thinking of that too but I do not have a freezer I can use.  Pasteurizing as above and bottling might be the way I go.  Thank you for your reply!

[Andy Backinsell]

I am just experimenting with this after a shelved ice cider attempt... I was left with 2 gallons of frozen (and thawed twice) juice which was reading 1.100 on my cheap hydrometer (the good one smashed!) which I blended down with a bone dry cider (18 month old) until it read 1.010 and bottled that.  After a week at room temp I would normally expect some activity but it's not happening, I have just transferred one bottle into a PET bottle to keep an eye on it, there's not enough to regularly open a bottle.  Am I being impatient or could freezing and thawing twice have killed off the yeasts enough that I am better off pitching some?  My plan was to monitor and pasteurize once it had a little sparkle.