Carbonation quality difference for natural vs forced carbonation

[Dhruv Jain]

Hello,

I am quite happy with the natural in bottle carbonation for the cider that I make for personal consumption which results in fine bubbles in the finished product. However, am currently exploring a carbonation setup for approximately 15000 liters of cider per annum as I am not keen to leave sediment in the bottles and riddling just blows the economics of the whole affair out of the water. My concern is that forced carbonation yields a product with a marked difference quality; have read that besides the bubbles being larger the beverage also looses its carbonation quicker than a naturally carbonated beverage.

Tried to read up as to why naturally carbonated beverages have finer bubbles and think that it must be because naturally carbonated beverages are unfiltered and as such have many more sites for the CO2 to come out of solution. This seems to address the fine vs large bubbles but then a larger number of sites would imply that naturally carbonated beverages should loose their carbonation quicker.

If I do not filter my cider and force carbonate it either in a brite tank or via a spray carbonation setup (quite like the one described by Wes Cherry) can I expect a carbonation of equal quality?

Thanks!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Have you considered the Cuve close (or Charmat) method? It is a quite popular method among professional cider makers, as it provides the sort of quality you expect from a natural prise de mousse, and also permits filtering before bottling. Since you write you already have the brite tank it would probably be easy for you to implement.
But yes, there are more and more cider makers that go to forced carbonation. Even in France! Quite a few producers there told me they now contract the carbonation and bottling - and one was telling me he now has a better sleep... The only thing for the French guys, is the "Appellation" doesn't permit anything else but in-bottle fermentation - Charmat and CO2 injection are forbidden. Hence only those that don't market their cider under the "Appellation" can use these processes.
 
Claude

[Dhruv Jain]

Hi Claude, I had not considered this. This does seem to tick almost all the boxes for me :-)

Thank you very much!

[Dhruv Jain]

Hi Claude,

Sorry to have to revive this. Struggling to find detailed literature on the Charmat process. I'm worried about racking & filtering the cider after carbonation to prevent the filter from clogging quickly and carbonation coming out of solution while filtering; so want to make sure that I have understood the process. 

Could you please point me in the right direction again?

Thanks!

On Monday, 4 April 2016 20:08:08 UTC+5:30, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 13 avril 2016 21:05:49 UTC-4, Dhruv Jain a écrit :

Sorry to have to revive this. Struggling to find detailed literature on the Charmat process. I'm worried about racking & filtering the cider after carbonation to prevent the filter from clogging quickly and carbonation coming out of solution while filtering; so want to make sure that I have understood the process. 

Dhruv, I'm afraid I might not be the right person to guide you into the details... I haven't done it personnally. I do know of some cider makers that successfully use the Charmat method for their ciders, and also that it is widely used in Italy for the Spumante sparkling wines.
For sure you will need counterpressure bottle fillers. However I am not sure what type and size of filter works best for this. If you have a good vendor who knows his material you could ask him. You could also try to find something in the wine literature.
Claude

[Dhruv Jain]

No problem, thanks again for the Charmat suggestion!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 13 avril 2016 22:00:51 UTC-4, Dhruv Jain a écrit :

No problem, thanks again for the Charmat suggestion!

Checking my notes I see that 2 of the better known French producers that use the Charmat method are Eric Bordelet and Michel Bréavoine. Bordelet is considered by some as the best cider in the world...