Floating lids or CO2 purge?

Tim

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Oct 9, 2016, 6:04:40 PM10/9/16

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Hi

After some advice on which to go for as my partner just looks at me with glazed eyes when I discuss it with her. Should I go for stainless steel tanks with floating lids or for using a blanket of CO2 on the Spiedel tanks I already own? I estimate that the tanks will cost around £1700 for 2 1000L tanks imported from Italy whereas the CO2 blankets might cost around £250.

Have I got my costs right? Do you have a preference? Are the tanks from Italy any good? I would rather get my choice right first time and only spend once.

Thanks for the advice in advance

Tim

Alex

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Oct 10, 2016, 2:10:08 AM10/10/16

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Hi Tim,

What are you intending to use the tanks for, fermentation and maturation?

I've met a fair few cider producers and I've yet to meet any that recommends using one of those variable capacity tanks with the floating lids. I have met a number that have said to avoid them.

Alex

Paul Ross

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Oct 10, 2016, 4:36:42 AM10/10/16

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I am using the variable capacity stainless steel tanks from ponsinelli for my 'special reserve' blends (ie best pears of the season). Very reasonable price considering they will last a lifetime.

Im puzzled by what could be wrong with them? They are easy to clean completely, strong, light and don't let any oxygen in. Aren't they superior in every way apart from the price?

Ray Blockley

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Oct 10, 2016, 5:17:01 AM10/10/16

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No axe to grind as I have so far only heard positive things about variable capacity tanks particularly from the smaller makers I've visited in Normandy & Brittany using GRP &/or S/Steel variable tanks.

A cider-making friend of mine invested in one of these last year in 500L size & is so pleased he's buying more this year - a plastic version & lower cost option:

http://www.pressfruit.co.uk/plastic-tanks-variable-capacity/

Ray.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Paul Ross <pa...@skylarkmediagroup.co.uk> wrote:

I am using the variable capacity stainless steel tanks from ponsinelli for my 'special reserve' blends (ie best pears of the season). Very reasonable price considering they will last a lifetime.
Im puzzled by what could be wrong with them? They are easy to clean completely, strong, light and don't let any oxygen in. Aren't they superior in every way apart from the price?

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Paul Ross

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Oct 10, 2016, 5:28:29 AM10/10/16

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That's interesting to see a plastic variable tank - although with the tube etc sold seperately they work out more expensive than my stainless steel ones!

Andrew Lea

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Oct 10, 2016, 5:34:24 AM10/10/16

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As a hobbyist I have a small (600 litre) variable capacity Speidel SS tank which works well for me. The ability to fit the tank lid absolutely to the remaining volume of cider is very valuable. So I'm certainly a fan, on my scale, and I don't want to be faffing around with CO2 "blanketing" on what is just an overgrown kitchen scale. If I were large scale commercial I might have a different perspective.

Large single use BIBs are an alternative option I've not personally tried, though many speak highly of them and I have seen them successfully used by small commercial producers.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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Ray Blockley

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Oct 10, 2016, 5:37:43 AM10/10/16

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Yep - there's always a catch................... ;-)

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 10:28 AM, Paul Ross <pa...@skylarkmediagroup.co.uk> wrote:

That's interesting to see a plastic variable tank - although with the tube etc sold seperately they work out more expensive than my stainless steel ones!

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Alex

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Oct 10, 2016, 6:11:28 AM10/10/16

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Hi Paul,

I've never used one myself. I can't remember all the criticism I heard about them, but it was enough to sway me when I made my first tank purchases. A lot was related to the cover not forming a good seal. I seem to remember some sort of cleaning issue being mentioned as well.

Paul Ross

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Oct 10, 2016, 6:25:46 AM10/10/16

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I see. I probably would have been scared off by that as well. Thanks for the info.

Perhaps they had inferior quality tanks, but I have to say I am very impressed by mine. They are extremely easy to clean out every nook and cranny and they form a perfect seal that you can reassure yourself of by looking at the pressure gauge.

I admit that they are very expensive per litre of storage but I think it's worth investing in a few if you want to produce a small quantity of premium product for traditional method etc

William Grote

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Oct 10, 2016, 10:36:22 AM10/10/16

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Hi Tim

I just logged on to look up info on a related topic so I might as well share some thoughts.

If there is any dairy industry where you are you can likely find used stainless dairy tanks for sale and cut the tops off to make your own variable capacity tank.

I was able to find several like the 440 liter one pictured here, they are even jacketed so they can be hooked up to a cooling system.

Now getting a source for the lids is why I'm looking here today.

Can anyone suggest a DIY floating lid solution they have come across for Stainless Tanks? The diameter is 500mm ( 19.75 inches)

105 gallon SS tank.jpeg

Richard Anderson

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Oct 10, 2016, 1:59:18 PM10/10/16

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I have used Italian, stainless steel, variable capacity tanks for nearly 20 years. In my mind they were an excellent investment. Easy to clean and maintain, keep in mind that you do need to check the seal periodically but think that is much easier that wondering if there is sufficient protection from sporadic co2 injections. Also consider that these tank have a resale value should you want to purchase larger tanks in the future.

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Ray Blockley
Sent: Monday, October 10, 2016 2:17 AM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Floating lids or CO2 purge?

No axe to grind as I have so far only heard positive things about variable capacity tanks particularly from the smaller makers I've visited in Normandy & Brittany using GRP &/or S/Steel variable tanks.

A cider-making friend of mine invested in one of these last year in 500L size & is so pleased he's buying more this year - a plastic version & lower cost option:

http://www.pressfruit.co.uk/plastic-tanks-variable-capacity/

Ray.

On Mon, Oct 10, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Paul Ross <pa...@skylarkmediagroup.co.uk <mailto:pa...@skylarkmediagroup.co.uk> > wrote:

I am using the variable capacity stainless steel tanks from ponsinelli for my 'special reserve' blends (ie best pears of the season). Very reasonable price considering they will last a lifetime.
Im puzzled by what could be wrong with them? They are easy to clean completely, strong, light and don't let any oxygen in. Aren't they superior in every way apart from the price?

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Tim

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Oct 10, 2016, 4:47:16 PM10/10/16

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Thanks for all the advice. Seems like the variable tanks overall get good reviews. Just need to wait for the pound to recover a bit against the euro!

Wes Cherry

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Oct 10, 2016, 10:04:45 PM10/10/16

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The inflatable gasket on Letina tanks is fairly cheap thin vinyl that’s somewhat easy to pop, especially when removing the lid on the larger tanks. I replaced my gaskets with higher quality ones as they fail.

http://www.thevintnervault.com/product/4636/Lid-Bladder-for-Variable-Capacity-Tank-%28Large%29.html

I also got tired of small leaks leading to failed seals and having to pump up the bladder too often. With the seal failing fruit flies get in there and you risk fruit-fly taint. The valve that maintains pressure is made out of poorly machined aluminum. Some failed to ever work without leaking.

I replaced the pumps with a ~10 psi feed from my air compressor. The valves were replaced with these valves which make it super easy to deflate and inflate the gaskets

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pneumatic_Components/Special_Purpose_Push-to-Connect_Pneumatic_Fittings/Hand_Valves/HVU14-3

They mount nicely in drilled holes in the the hand pump hanger that comes with Letina tanks.

The rest of the plumbing supplies are all 1/4” push to connect fittings from automationdirect.com (mostly union tees)

https://www.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Pneumatic_Components/Push-to-Connect_Union_Pneumatic_Fittings_(Thermoplastic)

I have 7 variable capacity tanks on the system. It has worked flawlessly after the upgrades.

The VC tanks replaced the Nitrogen or CO2 purge system that I previously had on my fixed capacity tanks. Thermal expansion and contraction led to the system going thru Nitrogen or CO2 way more than I liked. I greatly prefer the VC tanks.

-Wes

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Seva Nechaev

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Oct 11, 2016, 6:02:24 AM10/11/16

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Thermal expansion and contraction led to the system going thru Nitrogen or CO2 way more than I liked.

How, by the way, that lids are constructed exactly? Are they really floating (permitting some clearance between seal and tank side, hence flies etc) or do they touch that tank sides, which means some friction and delaying reaction for, say, thermal changes?

Wes Cherry

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Oct 11, 2016, 10:12:02 AM10/11/16

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In vc tanks? I was referring to thermal expansion and contraction of the headspace in fixed tanks.

The expansion/contraction of liquid in tanks is negligible - in vc there may be a little flex of the lids and it may push on the gasket a bit. The airlock would vent any extra pressure. Ideally there is a full seal with vc tanks.

-'//es Cherry
Dragon's Head Cider
Vashon Island, Wa US
www.dragonsheadcider.com

Mark Evens

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Oct 11, 2016, 4:56:17 PM10/11/16

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Looking at the all-inclusive costs of each, the plastic variable tanks do seem quite a bit cheaper than stainless steel. However, I assume they are less good for long term storage as the plastic is oxygen permeable?

Paul Ross

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Oct 12, 2016, 4:20:25 AM10/12/16

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Mark,

Take look at the polsinelli SS tanks from italy. They are about the same price as those plastic tanks. They provide tank, floating lid and tap installed all at one cost.

Yes, oxygen permeability would be an issue during long term storage on the plastic tanks and the SS ones have no issues at all. Also they look a lot nicer!