Air in head space and storage for bottle condition cider
Barry Eastwood
A friend and I were having a discussion on how much air in head space was required when filling for bottle condition cider.
It was agreed that an air space was required in order for the ferment to take place in the bottle, however it was uncertain on how much of a gap was required.
The train of thought was too little would inhibit the fermentation and take longer, but more gas would be dissolved in the liquid, giving a sparkle in the glass.
Too larger a head space would cause the cider to explode on opening causing the cider to gush from the bottle. I know that pressure is related to temperature (Boyle’s law from memory) and the amount of CO2 produced is determined on the SG when bottled. I tend to think 30mm from the top of the bottle is a good compromise.
It was also discussed whether it was better to store bottles standing up or lying down.
Again the train of thought was with the bottles lying on the side, it gave more surface area for the cider to be in contact with the air. The down side it requires more room for storage and specialised racks to be made.
I wouldn’t mind knowing what would be considered an optimum time in keeping cider for bottle conditioning. A figure of six to eight weeks was suggested to me.
I would be interested to know the thoughts from the forum
Regards,
Barry
greg l.
storage before bottling. When I make homebrew ale it carbonates quite
well in just a few days. My cider takes a few weeks in winter. Cider
tastes fine as it conditions, goes from being slightly sweet and
slightly fizzy to dry and well carbonated, at least thats my excuse
for drinking it early. The yeast variety makes a difference as well.
I'm not sure how big the airspace should be, I use a tube with a valve
at the foot so I get a fairly big headspace.
Greg
Andrew Lea
>
> It was agreed that an air space was required in order for the ferment to
> take place in the bottle, however it was uncertain on how much of a gap
> was required.
>
No air is required. The yeasts at this point are anaerobic, and
fermentation is an anaerobic process. Air is needed at an earlier stage
to build strong cell walls but not needed here.
> Too larger a head space would cause the cider to explode on opening
> causing the cider to gush from the bottle. I know that pressure is
> related to temperature (Boyle�s law from memory) and the amount of CO2
> produced is determined on the SG when bottled. I tend to think 30mm from
> the top of the bottle is a good compromise.
There was a very very long discussion here on this topic (internal
bottle pressure) earlier in the year if you search the archives. In
practice an inch or two is normal and sufficient. Be sure to leave
enough space for expansion in warm weather.
>
> It was also discussed whether it was better to store bottles standing up
> or lying down.
>
> Again the train of thought was with the bottles lying on the side, it
> gave more surface area for the cider to be in contact with the air. The
> down side it requires more room for storage and specialised racks to be
> made.
Air is not needed. If you store bottles on their sides the yeast deposit
is laid down all along the bottle wall and makes it almost impossible to
decant the cider without a yeast cloud. Upright is much the best.
>
> I wouldn�t mind knowing what would be considered an optimum time in
> keeping cider for bottle conditioning. A figure of six to eight weeks
> was suggested to me.
Depends on temperature, yeast load, nutrient levels etc. Anything from 2
weeks to a year is possible.
Andrew
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Barry Eastwood
I therefore assume the larger the head space, the greater the chance of
making vinegar?
Barry
Andrew
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Claude Jolicoeur
> A friend and I were having a discussion on how much air in head space was required when filling for bottle condition cider.
sometimes less... Never had problems.
Claude
Andrew Lea
> I guess that has blown my theory out of the water
>
> I therefore assume the larger the head space, the greater the chance of
> making vinegar?
No, not at all. To make vinegar (5% acetic acid converted from 5%
alcohol) you need alcohol, acetobacter, a large amount of air (oxygen),
and high temperatures.
The small amount of air in a bottle set up for conditioning is
irrelevant. The liquid is probably already saturated with CO2, more will
be generated by the action of yeast, and any acetobacter will be
inhibited by that in equilibrium in the headspace as the proportion of
oxygen falls. If you used SO2 before fermentation and kept air out
thereafter, the numbers of acetobacter will be very low anyway.
The risk of making vinegar during normal bottle conditioning is
effectively nil. I think you are worrying about nothing! Have you had a
bad experience with bottle conditioning in the past? Or is this purely a
'thought experiment'?
greg l.
and never had problems with vinegar or oxidation. Live yeast cells are
great for soaking up excess oxygen, thats why battonage (stirring) is
practised when ageing chardonnay sur-lie (on the lees). When bottling
still table wine oxygen is a big problem, I have tasted plenty of
bottles spoilt with acetaldehyde through poor bottling.
Greg
Michael Cobb
>> causing the cider to gush from the bottle. I know that pressure is
>> produced is determined on the SG when bottled. I tend to think 30mm from
>> the top of the bottle is a good compromise.
>
> There was a very very long discussion here on this topic (internal
> bottle pressure) earlier in the year if you search the archives. In
> practice an inch or two is normal and sufficient. Be sure to leave
> enough space for expansion in warm weather.
Most bottles (glass) that I see seem to have figures on them which
indicate the distance from the top at which the volume is the specified
volume. A bit like lines on oversize glasses in pubs. This would be a
good level to fill to as the bottle manufacturers ought to have allowed
for things like pressure and temperature variations.
>>
>> It was also discussed whether it was better to store bottles standing up
>> or lying down.
>>
Andrew said:
> Air is not needed. If you store bottles on their sides the yeast deposit
> is laid down all along the bottle wall and makes it almost impossible to
> decant the cider without a yeast cloud. Upright is much the best.
>
I do not bottle conditon my cider but when I store in bottle I often get a
deposit on the glass. It is unusual for me to disagree with Andrew but my
experience differs. Handled carefully and gently bottles on their side
can be decanted more successfully than those standing up. When pouring an
upright bottle the deposit is quickly stirred up and fills a large volume.
Pouring a bottle on its side the liquid comes off the deposit without
much disturbance until the bottle is nearly empty and you need to deal
with the narrowing of the neck. The deposit - in my experience - settles
into the curve with less loss due to cloud than when pouring an upright
bottle.
Michael Cobb
Andrew Lea
>>>
>>
> I do not bottle condition my cider but when I store in bottle I often get a
> deposit on the glass. It is unusual for me to disagree with Andrew but my
> experience differs. Handled carefully and gently bottles on their side
> can be decanted more successfully than those standing up. When pouring an
> upright bottle the deposit is quickly stirred up and fills a large volume.
> Pouring a bottle on its side the liquid comes off the deposit without
> much disturbance until the bottle is nearly empty and you need to deal
> with the narrowing of the neck. The deposit - in my experience - settles
> into the curve with less loss due to cloud than when pouring an upright
> bottle.
Yes but the key is that you say you don't bottle condition. After all,
wines are conventionally stored on their sides, mainly to keep the cork
wet, but in a red wine tannin often deposits on the walls and this is
not a major problem when decanting.
I'd say it's very different when you have supersaturated CO2 present. As
soon as the pressure is released the gas nucleates on any small
particles present. Inevitably it then rouses those particles into the
liquid. If they are close to the neck of the bottle, they are carried
straight into the initial pourings. Whereas if the nuclei are all at the
bottom of the bottle, it takes much longer before they appear because
they have further to travel.
What do other people find?
Michael Cobb
>>>>
>>>
>> I do not bottle condition my cider but when I store in bottle I often
>> get a
>> deposit on the glass. It is unusual for me to disagree with Andrew but
>> my
>> experience differs. Handled carefully and gently bottles on their side
>> can be decanted more successfully than those standing up. When pouring
>> an
>> upright bottle the deposit is quickly stirred up and fills a large
>> volume.
>> Pouring a bottle on its side the liquid comes off the deposit without
>> much disturbance until the bottle is nearly empty and you need to deal
>> with the narrowing of the neck. The deposit - in my experience -
>> settles
>> into the curve with less loss due to cloud than when pouring an upright
>> bottle.
> Yes but the key is that you say you don't bottle condition. After all,
> wines are conventionally stored on their sides, mainly to keep the cork
> wet, but in a red wine tannin often deposits on the walls and this is
> not a major problem when decanting.
> I'd say it's very different when you have supersaturated CO2 present. As
> soon as the pressure is released the gas nucleates on any small
> particles present. Inevitably it then rouses those particles into the
> liquid. If they are close to the neck of the bottle, they are carried
> straight into the initial pourings. Whereas if the nuclei are all at the
> bottom of the bottle, it takes much longer before they appear because
> they have further to travel.
Large CO2 levels may well have the effect you mention, that is why I said
I have no experience of it - the most I get is a light fizz from in bottle
MLF. There is another issue when storing on their side, you need to
decant close to where the bottle is stored or carry very carefully to
prevent disturbance - less of a problem I guess with vertically stored
bottles.
> What do other people find?
Yes please more info!
Michael Cobb
Barry Eastwood
My reasoning comes from the use of kegs and stone jars when used as a
storage medium. I have read how the cider would be poured directly from a
tap for drinking. Thus allowing air and I guess bacteria in, to eventually
turn the cider into vinegar.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Lea" <y...@cider.org.uk>
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 8:01 PM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Air in head space and storage for bottle
condition cider
sparkybloke99
I bottled quite a lot of my cider last year and got what I thought
was light carbonation, but by the warm summer months had to keep the
bottles in the cool . usually just grabbed a few from the shed as
required but had a bit of a surprise when I brought some to a friends
party where every bottle frothed over (much to everyone's amusement).
this was fine for a bit of fun but did lift the sediment so only got
about 450ml of my 500ml into the glass before things got murky.I dont
like chilled cider but the shed stays in the shade for most of the day
and I found that it was cool enough to keep this from happening. I
keep the bottles upright and under normal conditions get a full pint
glass from 500ml bottle
Andrew Lea
> More of a thought experiment.
>
> My reasoning comes from the use of kegs and stone jars when used as a
> storage medium. I have read how the cider would be poured directly from a
> tap for drinking. Thus allowing air and I guess bacteria in, to eventually
> turn the cider into vinegar.
Well it certainly does the cider no favours and that's why we say that
"air is the enemy of cider".
But just to explore this a bit it is worth pointing out that a cider
which simply smells or tastes vinegary may well be unpleasant but is not
necessarily anywhere near actually being true vinegar. A few hundred
parts per million of ethyl acetate from bacterial action plus a touch of
acetic acid (0.14% is the maximum allowed in the NACM Code of Practice)
is enough to be reminiscent of vinegar and even to be described as
acetic, but in true vinegar *all* the alcohol (say 5%) is converted to
an equal amount of acetic acid. The term 'vinegary' is a flavour
descriptor but doesn't mean the cider has become actual vinegar.