Bath and West Results

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Michael Cobb

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May 31, 2012, 3:26:08 PM5/31/12
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The results should be posted by the society on their web site tommorrow.

However I have been given a handwritten photocpied list so as not to keep
you in suspense. Took and bit of Typing but here it is below:

Michael Cobb

Bath and West results 2012

E&OE

Class 1 Open dry
1st Hogan's cider
2nd Thatchers cider
3rd Thatchers ciider
VHC
HC aarnes and Adams

Class 2 Open Medium
1st Hogan's cider
2nd Sheppy's cider
3rd Healey's Cornish cider farm
VHC
HC Thatchers cider

Class 3 Open sweet
1st Julian Temperley
2nd Julian Temperley
3rd Old grove farm cider and wines
VHC
HC

Class 4 Organic
1st Dave Rowe
2nd Ashridge cider
3rd H Weston's and son Ltd
VHC
HC

Class 5 Taste and presentation
1st Cotswold cider company
2nd John Perry
3rd Pilton Cider
VHC
HC Blaengawney cider

Class 6 Bottle fermented
1st Ashridge cider
2nd Gospel green
3rd Bollhayes cider
VHC
HC

Class 7 Naturally sweet
1st Richard Stone
2nd Cider by Rosie
3rd Cider by Rosie
VHC
HC

Class 8 Single Variety
1st Thatchers cider
2nd John Perry
3rd Wilcox cider
VHC
HC National Trust Barrington Court

Class 9 Apple Juice Single variety
1st Once upon a tree
2nd Lizzie hecks
3rd North Perrot fruit farm
VHC
HC

Class 10 Carbonated apple juice
1st Orchard Pig
2nd
3rd
VHC
HC

Class 11 Blended Apple Juice
1st North Perrot fruit farm
2nd Mrs A Pearmund
3rd One upon a tree
VHC
HC

Class 12 Open Perry
1st Troggi
2nd Butford Organics
3rd Old grove farm cider and wines
VHC
HC McCrindles cider

Class 13 Farmhouse dry
1st Palmers Upland cider
2nd Christopher Brown
3rd Green valley cider
VHC Broadpool cider
HC

Class 14 Farmhouse Medium
1st Julian Temperley
2nd Kington cider
3rd Nigel Stewart
VHC Alan Berry
HC

Class 15 Farmhouse seeet
1st Albert Rixen
2nd Kington cider
3rd Kington cider
VHC
HC

Class 16 International cider
1st Val de Rance Brut France
2nd Ecusson de Bretagne Aerial France
3rd Val de Rance Doux France
VHC Sidra de Asturias Pomerania Sn Spain
HC Uncle John's fruit house winery USA

Class 17 International perry
1st No Winner
2nd
3rd
VHC
HC

Best in Show Ashridge cider (bottle fermented)
Reserve Julian Temperley (Open Sweet)

Arthur Davies Cup Cotswold Cider Company (class 5)
reserve Thatchers cider (class 8)

Best farmhouse Julian Temperley (med)
reserve Palmers Upland cider (dry)

Best apple juice Once upon a tree (class 9)
reserve North Perrott fruit farm (class 11)

Best perry and reserve as class 12

Best organic and reserve as class 4

Craftsmanship within the cider industry Chris Fairs

Best international cider as class 16

Best orchard - to be awarded on Friday

Gold medal for service to Industry - Liz Copas (when I congratulAted her
she said it was like a wedding day!)



jez....@btinternet.com

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May 31, 2012, 6:15:43 PM5/31/12
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Thanks so much for that Michael. I think you have become our resident Bath and West bod! By the way, it was lovely to finally meet you on Tuesday... Even though we were in the way of those moving bottles about:-)

Congrats to those who won stuff, the rest of us will have to try harder next year:i-)

All the best

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on O2

Alan Stone

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Jun 2, 2012, 2:02:11 AM6/2/12
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Hi Michael
 
Sorry about beating you in the Bath and West council elections but could I please hold a rain check on this results lists. In case anyone is not familiar the major classes are in fact classes 13, 14 and 15. These are the demi john farmhouse classes with 150 entries.
 
And of course classs 7 must be quite important as my son won it!
 
Sales of my new book - In Search of Cider - have been going very well - managed to cover one third of the printing costs already - long way to go!
 
Thanks
 
Alan

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Michael Cobb

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Jun 2, 2012, 2:48:40 AM6/2/12
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Additional Result announced on Friday:

Best Cider Orchard

Edward Landon - Garstons lane cider orchard

Reserve
Angus Macdonald.

Michael Cobb

Michael Cobb

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Jun 2, 2012, 2:52:28 AM6/2/12
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Local paper story on the competition focusing on the celebrity judge -
Raymond Blanc - also mentions Liz Copas gold medal.

http://tinyurl.com/clbyezy


Michael obb

JezH

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Jun 2, 2012, 5:37:56 AM6/2/12
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Sorry to disagree with you Alan, but aren't ALL the classes major
classes - whatever the number of entries? It certainly didn't indicate
major and minor classes in the rules...

Also, not entirely sure what you mean by 'a rain check' on the results
- surely it is correct?

Congrats to your son - and also to Phil. Why is it called 'Rubber
Chicken' mate? Is this an additive allowed under HMRC 162? :-) Very
well done to all those who got a result.

All the best

Jez

Andrew Lea

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Jun 2, 2012, 10:13:42 AM6/2/12
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On this topic, I thought people might be interested in some statistics
on the numbers submitted this year for each class (give or take a few
samples that didn't turn up and some late entrants):

OC1 Bottled Dry Cider 47
OC2 Bottled Medium Cider 54
OC3 Bottled Sweet Cider 29

OC4 Bottled Organic Cider 5
OC5 Bottled Cider judged on presentation
and contents 44

OC6 Bottle Fermented Cider (Disgorged) 12
OC7 Bottle Conditioned Cider (Bouch�) 13

OC8 Bottled Single Varietal Ciders 28

OC9 Single Variety Juice 25
OC10 Carbonated Juice 6
OC11 Blended Apple Juice 22

OC12 Bottled Perry 28

OC13 Farmhouse Dry Cider 62
OC14 Farmhouse Medium Cider 50
OC15 Farmhouse Sweet Cider 40

OC16 International Cider 29


Numerically, the main Bottled classes (1-3) at 130 total entries and the
Farmhouse classes (13-15) at 152 total entries are the major groups and
cover well over half of the total entry numbers. Three entries per
entrant per class are permitted and many entrants obviously take
advantage of this (this is why people can win more than once per class -
if the judges like a particular sample they may well like others from
the same stable, without of course being aware of the provenance at the
time).

Disclaimer - I have nothing to do with the organisation! This data was
taken from the catalogue of entries which becomes available after the
judging.

Andrew

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Michael Cobb

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:19:19 AM6/3/12
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Jez said

> Sorry to disagree with you Alan, but aren't ALL the classes major
> classes - whatever the number of entries? It certainly didn't indicate
> major and minor classes in the rules...


Andrew has provided the entry details - I do not have them. I think it
may be useful to explain bit more about the classes for those in other
parts. Like Andrew I have no connection with the competition (other than
as an exhibitor and Andrew as a Judge) though I am a Steward at the show,
looking after "Showground Cleanliness".

All the cider classes are limited to ciders (and perries) that comply with
Notice 162. There is a further restriction on the farmhouse classes that
they must be made from the previous years apple crop (it says cider apple
crop but since, in my opinion, all apples are cider apples that is not
significant). Farmhouse classes are judged separately and have their own
trophy. The winnner of those classes then gets a second chance to compete
for best in show - so if the Farmhouse winner is best in show there are
two trophies! Farmhouse is also a demijohn entry so a big percentage
sample for a small hobby cidermaker just making cider in five gallon
fermenters.

Classes 1-3 are anonymous in identical 75 cl bottles (supplied by Vigo).
Unless you ask the exhibitor you do not know what is being exhibited. It
could be the same cider that an entrant exhibits in the farmhouse class
(with a different judge there may be a different opinion) or it could be a
chapatalised low juice cider though I suspect someone entering such would
be wasting their entry fee.

Entries for the open classes do not have to be from the previous years
crop so if your cider is not yet matured enough you can if you wish enter
an older cider. Some entrants might enter their retail products though
they can also be entered in other classes where they will be identified as
what they are. Some of the entrants in the open (and possibly farmhouse)
classes may well be specially blended for the competition and not
otherwise available.

> Also, not entirely sure what you mean by 'a rain check' on the results
> - surely it is correct?

Alan was working at the show so had little time to discuss the results, I
believe he will tell us later that he was trying to let people know to
look down the long list I posted as the Farmhouse classes are near the
bottom of that list, simply because of the class number. I was given a
photocopy of the results to post here - it was easier than working from a
photograph as I have had to do in earlier years- so the results are
correct unless I mistyped them in haste after a long tiring day. The gaps
are also singificant as Andrew's list of entries shows. Some prizes were
not awarded, in some classes we got VHC (very highly commended) in others
only HC - all down to the judges on the day.


>
> Congrats to your son - and also to Phil. Why is it called 'Rubber
> Chicken' mate? Is this an additive allowed under HMRC 162? :-) Very
> well done to all those who got a result.
>
> All the best
>
> Jez


I was not drinking during the show but I did try your two dry 146 ciders
as a sample Jez. I will have to try a larger sample sometime, it was good
to see them on the list of ciders available at the bar - and good to meet
you on Tuesday. We were not getting in the way chatting - I was helping
out staging the entry so no one was going to complain!


Michael Cobb

Tim

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:25:26 AM6/3/12
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Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, it is very significant, cider apples are just that, CIDER apples.

all apples are cider apples that is not significant

Tim in Dorset.

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Alan Stone

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:30:05 AM6/3/12
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No Jez, I don't agree question of interpretation - 120 years of cider classes at shows would suggest very strongly that the main thrust of competitions is for the bulk farmhouse cider judging. Of course in early days in the 1890s this was 18 gallon barrels but was then reduced to 9 gallons - judges must have needed a lot of sips to get the full flavour! I have a wonderful picture of judging going on at the Mid Somerset Show in the 1950s of judges looking rather worse for wear in front of a whole row of 9 gallon barrels.
 
Nowdays the Farm House clases are judged from 5 litre demijohns. This year Julian Temperley was the overall farmhouse cider champion at the show with his medium and the results as shown did not clarify that point. Just about all the craft cider makers are looking out for the results in these three classes - with around 50 enteries in each. There are a multitude of secondry classes with between 6 and 20 entries - including International cider, Apple juice, single variety, bottled conditioned, best presentation etc etc all judged in 70 cl bottles. But please make no mistake about the relative importance - every one knows this even if they want to sing the praises of their own wins!
 
Have a look at Devon County where just about all the cider is in demijohns. And of course most of the CAMRA wins come fro 5 gallon barrels of draft cider.
 
PS enjoyed your cider at the show - from 20 litre bag in boxes!

From: JezH <jez....@btinternet.com>
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
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Michael Cobb

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:44:40 AM6/3/12
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> Sorry but I have to disagree with this statement, it is very significant,
> cider apples are just that, CIDER apples.
>
> "all apples are cider apples that is not significant"
>
>
> Tim in Dorset.
>
Tim - you missed an important part of my post where I said "in my
opinion". You are welcome to your opinion but I stand by what I said. I
have yet to find an apple I cannot make cider with. Not all would make a
drinkable single variety cider but few ciders are single variety anyway so
any and all apples can form part of the blend ( except ones that have gone
rotten).

Michael Cobb

Michael Cobb

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Jun 3, 2012, 4:02:51 AM6/3/12
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Alan,

you are looking at things too much as the Historian you are.

Farmhouse cider classes are good for Farmhouse cider and Farmhouse cider
makers. They may be good for visitors buying cider whilst holidaying in
cider making areas. The classes at the Bath and West are a lot more than
than now as a history written in a hundred years will no doubt show. Bath
and West celebrates all ciders and the wider cider industry that is
available to the general public who do not live where they can buy cider
at the farm gate. The majority of cider, by volume, drunk is not
farmhouse cider anymore and has not been for quite a long time.

Rupert announced at the show that the Bath and West cider competition is
now the biggest in the world - I do not know if he is right but it
certainly is big.

High volume "industrial" cider is unlikely to ever win a prize at the Bath
and West and I would contend that the competition is most useful to those
making ciders with relatively high juice contents. The middle tier ciders
that are nevertheless available nationally have most to win or loose.
Hobby cidermakers and those making up to the exempt limit keep them on
their toes to make sure standards do not slip. Prize cards can be a good
factor in making sure the middle tier cider makers keep up standards and
keep a public interest in good cider. A public interest in good cider is
good for all who make good cider including those in the exempt bracket.

Michael Cobb

> No Jez, I don't agree�question of interpretation�- 120 years of cider
> classes at shows would suggest very strongly that the main thrust of
> competitions is for the bulk farmhouse cider judging. Of course in early
> days in the 1890s this was 18 gallon barrels but was then reduced to 9
> gallons - judges must have needed a lot of sips to get the full flavour! I
> have a wonderful picture of judging going on at the Mid Somerset Show in
> the 1950s of judges looking rather worse for wear in front of a whole row
> of�9 gallon barrels.
> �
> Nowdays the Farm House clases are judged from 5 litre demijohns. This year
> Julian Temperley was the overall farmhouse cider champion at the show with
> his medium and the results as shown did not clarify that point. Just about
> all the�craft cider makers are looking out�for the results in these three
> classes - with�around 50 enteries in each.�There are a multitude of
> secondry classes with between 6 and 20 entries - including International
> cider, Apple juice, single variety, bottled conditioned, best
> presentation�etc etc all judged in 70 cl bottles. But please make no
> mistake about the relative importance - every one knows this even if they
> want to sing the praises of their own wins!
> �
> Have a look at Devon County where just about all the cider is in
> demijohns. And of course most of the CAMRA wins come fro�5 gallon barrels
> of draft cider.
> �
> PS enjoyed your cider at the show - from 20 litre bag in boxes!
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: JezH <jez....@btinternet.com>
> To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
> Sent: Saturday, 2 June 2012, 10:37
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results
>
> Sorry to disagree with you Alan, but aren't ALL the classes major
> classes - whatever the number of entries? It certainly didn't indicate
> major and minor classes in the rules...
>
> Also, not entirely sure what you mean by 'a rain check' on the results
> - surely it is correct?
>
> Congrats to your son - and also to Phil. Why is it called 'Rubber
> Chicken' mate? Is this an additive allowed under HMRC 162? :-) Very
> well done to all those who got a result.
>
> All the best
>
> Jez
>
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Alan Stone

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Jun 3, 2012, 4:07:08 AM6/3/12
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Sorry - only just caught up with this post and basically Michael is right - I was trying to draw attention to the Farmhouse classes which are way down the list.
 
I also think referring to 'major' classes was probably a mistake - it implies the others are minor which was certainly not the intention! It is just a question of prioritising.
 
Overall though what a wonderful competition - 496 entries according to organiser Rupert Best - that was one incredible turn out.
 
I was running the stand for the accountants I work for during the show but did manage a fair number of visits to the cider tent and gave two talks on cider heritage which went down well. Now got to go and pull out four estate car loads of dispay equipment. Already spent 75 hours and the show and am getting rather wilted!
 
Alan

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Alan Stone

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Jun 3, 2012, 4:12:29 AM6/3/12
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We keep crossing posts - totally agree with everything you say below - except we must ensure we keep the farmhouse heritage of cider to the fore - it underpins everything. I have heard Julian Temperley talking on this and agree with him
 

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Tim

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Jun 3, 2012, 4:15:32 AM6/3/12
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I agree you can make some sort of cider from all apples but Cider apples are
a totally different apple from Dessert apples, if there was no difference
why should we have the distinctly named cultivars?

Cider Apples are Cider Apples, plain and simple, they are not Dessert
Apples, they are not Eating Apples, they are Cider Apples regardless of
opinions.

Tim in Dorset.




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Mark Shirley

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Jun 3, 2012, 6:17:57 AM6/3/12
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> All the cider classes are limited to ciders (and perries) that comply with
> Notice 162. There is a further restriction on the farmhouse classes that
> they must be made from the previous years apple crop (it says cider apple
> crop but since, in my opinion, all apples are cider apples that is not
> significant).

I find it interesting that Old Grove of Hererfordshire appear in the winners
list for sweet cider and perry. Unless the entries were specially made for
the competition, Old Grove make their ciders and 'Pear' from exclusively
dessert and culinary fruit.

Cheers, Mark

Cheshire Matt

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Jun 3, 2012, 6:41:51 AM6/3/12
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Points that arise from this:
* I was suprised at the (relatively) small size of some of the
classes. A lot has been made of "nearly 600 entries", but whe that's
spread across many classes, it's quite enlightening to see that the
largest single class was Farmhouse Dry with 62 in. Clearly, the cider
still needs to be good to win this - but it's 1 in 60, not 1 in 600.
(Not taking anything away from Phill of course who won it!) I think
that's the point some were making: winning at the Bath & West is not
"winning out of 600".

* Cider Apples etc. I was in the orchards at Burrow Hill last
weekend. Julian grows Bramleys along with a note on the tree to the
effect: cider apples are necessary, but sometimes you need something a
bit sharper.

* Farmhouse, as applied to Bath & West classes. Clearly the name is
historical, and times move on. The fact is the best ciders in the
"Farmhouse" ciasses at the Bath & West bear little resemblance to the
tourist trap stuff for the unsuspecting who know no better. I sense
at times on this forum that "Farmhouse" is sneered at a little, and
seen as inferior cider, because of that tourist trap reputation.
Again, a point I think that was being made by others is that the
Farmhouse classes at the Bath & West have very good quality ciders in
them, and it's a name/class thing, not a description. Unfortunately,
the "Farmhouse" term sometimes gets used as a catchall for some bad
cider, but that is clearly not the case in this instance. I certainly
think farmhouse in this sense is more honest to the Somerset location
and all that is Bath & West.

* For Somerset, the Bath & West is very important to the rural and
farming community. Cider making is one of the primary industries the
county is best known for. Farmhouse ties in with both of those
points. That heritage is extremely valuable, and under threat. Just
because it always has been, doesn't mean it always will be. The fact
cider makers across the country see "winning at the Bath & West" as
the ultimate accolade, I think all of us cider makers should consider
why that is so, and think about what we owe, however small, to all of
that heritage.

In closing, the closest I've come to winning at the show was when my
sister came first in the Farm Safety Poster competion in the 80s with
a big red tractor and the slogan "beware of Farm
machinery" (capitalisation as shown on poster!). But then to win
anything, you have to enter! Next year....

On Jun 3, 9:12 am, Alan Stone <sheptonhist...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> We keep crossing posts - totally agree with everything you say below - except we must ensure we keep the farmhouse heritage of cider to the fore - it underpins everything. I have heard Julian Temperley talking on this and agree with him
>
>
> ________________________________
> >  From: JezH <jez.ho...@btinternet.com>
> > To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, 2 June 2012, 10:37
> > Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results
>
> > Sorry to disagree with you Alan, but aren't ALL the classes major
> > classes - whatever the number of entries? It certainly didn't indicate
> > major and minor classes in the rules...
>
> > Also, not entirely sure what you mean by 'a rain check' on the results
> > - surely it is correct?
>
> > Congrats to your son - and also to Phil. Why is it called 'Rubber
> > Chicken' mate? Is this an additive allowed under HMRC 162? :-) Very
> > well done to all those who got a result.
>
> > All the best
>
> > Jez
>
> > --
> > Visit our website:http://www.ciderworkshop.com
>
> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider
> > Workshop"  Google Group.
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Mark Shirley

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Jun 3, 2012, 7:11:29 AM6/3/12
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* Farmhouse, as applied to Bath & West classes. Clearly the name is
historical, and times move on. The fact is the best ciders in the
"Farmhouse" ciasses at the Bath & West bear little resemblance to the
tourist trap stuff for the unsuspecting who know no better. I sense
at times on this forum that "Farmhouse" is sneered at a little, and
seen as inferior cider, because of that tourist trap reputation.
Again, a point I think that was being made by others is that the
Farmhouse classes at the Bath & West have very good quality ciders in
them, and it's a name/class thing, not a description. Unfortunately,
the "Farmhouse" term sometimes gets used as a catchall for some bad
cider, but that is clearly not the case in this instance. I certainly
think farmhouse in this sense is more honest to the Somerset location
and all that is Bath & West.


I can't say that I've ever seen the term 'Farmhouse' in the context of cider
being sneered at on here, or anywhere else for that matter. Now 'Scrumpy',
that's a term I'll happily sneer at ;)

The term 'Farmhouse' is being used by the Bath & West competition organisers
in a somewhat unique way, based on a historical context almost exclusive to
the show. My own understanding of 'Farmhouse' in the wider context of cider
is that it is cider made on a farm! Indeed some still are. Needless to say
this is actually as meaningless a term in the context of cider as all the
other debased marketing terms such as 'Pure', 'Premium', 'Natural' etc.
since there are a few producers marketing their cider as 'Farmhouse' who
have never farmed in their life, and are more likely to be making their
cider in an industrial unit. Personally, I would never dream of calling my
own cider 'Farmhouse'.

Cheers, Mark

Jez Howat

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Jun 3, 2012, 8:59:22 AM6/3/12
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I agree with Mark on this - I cannot remember ever seeing 'Farmhouse' taken
in anything but a complementary way - though I kind of see it as a type of
cider in itself: draught, still and unfiltered...

Alan, I think you are being a bit oversensitive about the classes at Bath
and West - even from a historical viewpoint (after all, aren't there many
ways of looking at history depending on where you look from?). I simply
don't see Bath and West referring to the classes as major or minor/secondary
and I was merely pointing that out. If Bath and West don't draw a
distinction, then why should we?

As far as the Workshop is concerned, although we support things like the
Bath and West for showcasing great cider we do not 'affiliate' or feel the
need to follow any protocol about competitions - Michael simply presented
the list of winners as I (for one) was interested and couldn't attend. In
fact, the fact that he listed them from 1-16 makes more sense than trying to
conjour up some mechanism for major or secondary classes! Thanks Michael for
doing so...

From a personal perspective I am glad that those who tried my ciders liked
them. Having just been involved with the Southampton Beer Festival its
lovely to get feedback from people. The highlight at Southampton for me was
some knowledgeable looking person coming up and asking what 'fruit' ciders
we had... "yes madam, we have apples and we have pears - which would you
like". I am sure we aren't the first to say that though! Mind you, one cider
was so bad that we turned it into a 'Crewkerne Sunrise' (surely the
real/traditional purpose of adding other flavours to cider:-)

Thats my six-pence anyway, and shouldn't detract from an excellent
competition - from the feedback I have heard the winners were very good
indeed.

All the best

Jez

Stephen Hayes

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:03:33 PM6/3/12
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I agree-by all means go for excellence, tradition, experimentation and
sales-these aren't mutually exclusive. I'm a conservative in many ways, but
where it comes to 'what makes good cider?' I think liberalism and diversity
is the best policy, as with cheese. My love for mature cheddar does not
disqualify anyone else's preference for runny Camembert that smells of
cabbages (which my daughter Sarah loves). My making whatever cider I like
(or can) doesn't stop anyone else doing it their way. vive la difference.

PS my other daughter Emily is getting married next year and has chosen to
have the reception in the orchard! with cider!

Stephen Hayes

Nick at Ciderniks

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Jun 3, 2012, 3:25:49 PM6/3/12
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Will you be asking all other Cider Workshop members for cider supplies for Emily's wedding reception?

Nick

Nick Edwards
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Max Nowell

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Jun 3, 2012, 5:00:58 PM6/3/12
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I agree. If all apples are cider apples, is must be true that all
apples are dessert apples too. It is possible to make cider out of all
apples, but it is also possible to eat all apples or make pies out of
them.
> our rules, and principles. Please seehttp://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html

Michael Cobb

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Jun 4, 2012, 1:41:31 AM6/4/12
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> I agree. If all apples are cider apples, is must be true that all
> apples are dessert apples too. It is possible to make cider out of all
> apples, but it is also possible to eat all apples or make pies out of
> them.

Do you eat six different variety apples at the same time? You might in a
pie but it would be unusual when eating a raw apple.

Michael Cobb

Tim

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Jun 4, 2012, 3:13:12 AM6/4/12
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Cider apples are a group of apple cultivars grown for their use in cider production. In the UK the Long Ashton Research Station categorised cider apples in 1903 into four main types according to the nature of their flavour components. For cider production it is important that the fruit contains high sugar levels which encourage fermentation and raise the final alcohol levels. Cider apples therefore often have higher sugar levels than Dessert and Culinary apples.

    Sweets This group is low in tannins (<0.2%) and acidity (<0.45%).

    Sharps This group is high in acidity (>0.45%) and low in tannins (<0.2%). The high acidity, together with that from the bittersharp group, can add 'bite' to the cider.

    Bittersweets This group is low in acidity (<0.45%) and high in tannin (>0.2%). The raised levels of tannin, which tastes bitter and is astringent, adds a bitterness to the cider. A certain amount of bitterness is expected in ciders of the West Country Style.

    Bittersharps This group is high in both acidity (>0.45%) and tannin (>0.2%).

Normally, ciders are blended using juice from several apple cultivars to give the best results. There are few varieties that will make a good cider all by themselves, Golden Russet is one such variety, and is prized in both single variety and multi-variety blends of cider.

Three apple cultivars from England are 'Kingston Black', 'Stoke Red', and 'Dymock Red':

    Kingston Black Apple is probably named after the village of Kingston, near Taunton, Somerset;

    'Stoke Red' is from Rodney Stoke, between Cheddar and Wells;

    'Dymock Red'[2] is from Dymock in Gloucestershire.

Famous American cider apple cultivars are Harrison Cider Apple, 'Campfield', Hewe's Virginia Crab,[3] and Yates. The first two originated in Essex County, New Jersey before 1776.[4] The Hewe's was grown from early 1700s and by Thomas Jefferson in his cider orchard.

Notes

Cider is made in several countries and can be made from any apples. In the UK there are two distinct styles: one using Dessert (eating) and Culinary (Cooking) apples (Eastern Counties Style) and one using special Cider apples used only for cider production (West Country Style).

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Table apples or dessert apples are a group of apple cultivars grown for eating raw as opposed to cooking or cidermaking. Table apples are usually sweet and the most prized exhibit particular aroma variations that differentiate them from other apples.

Common table apple varieties include:

    Red Delicious - An iconic apple variety.

    Ginger Gold

    Gala

    Adams Pearmain

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Michael Cobb

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Alan Stone

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Jun 4, 2012, 3:57:07 AM6/4/12
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I was going to leave it there -however having talked to a couple of entrants yesterday - without leading the conversation - one had picked up on this thread on the forum - their view was that they would rather have a third in one of the farmhouse classes than win one of the other classes
 
For this competition the farmhouse is definately the elite - it is the true judgement of the cidermakers craft

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Alan Stone

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Jun 4, 2012, 4:03:01 AM6/4/12
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As far as I am aware there were 496 entries in total.
 
Aound 150 farmhouse of which Julian Temperley's medium was the champion for farmhouse. It was also the reserve champion for the whole show, so second out of 496 - the winner was Ashridge Cider with a methode Championaise bottle conditioned cider which is excellent butit  may not be a surprising result as the judgement was made by the french chef  Raymond Blanc!

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greg l.

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:12:24 AM6/4/12
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Tim, in the 19th century a lot of cider orchards were planted from
seed both in England and France, so the categorisation of cider trees
was moot. You are applying one definition but that doesn't apply to
everyone, I make a lot of cider from seedlings, how do you categorise
them?

Greg
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Cheshire Matt

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:26:04 AM6/4/12
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Apologies - not certain where I got the 600 figure from in that case.  I was re-iterating that the show champs _are_ that good, but winning in other classes is within that class, and those classes are not as large as might be thought, if it weren't for Andrew listing total entries.

I thought from Michael's original transcription on this thread it was the Burrow Hill *sweet* that was Reserve Supreme Champion Cider (OCC1), the Medium being Best Farmhouse Cider (OCS2)? - but that doesn't make sense thinking about it.  So it was the Medium?

And yes, overall winning style is not surprising - the choice of M Blanc suggests an effort to move cider from the barn to the dining table.  I know some think this is how the drink should go, as an alternative to wine, but at the Bath & West? 



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Tim

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:33:16 AM6/4/12
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I suppose that would be up to organisations like Brogdale, I sent them a
seedling a few Years ago, the reply was it was an unknown apple but would ba
classed as Cider only due to tannins and acidity.

Tim in Dorset.

Cheshire Matt

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:48:29 AM6/4/12
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Analogy time :)

It's like having a competition for supercars in Turin with Jeremy Clarkson as judge.  Yes, he is respected in the car world, and he may or may not fawn over the latest McClaren, being British Engineering and judge it Best in Show.  But the real class to win is where the entrants are red, locally made, and with a prancing horse on the badge!  And not seeing it like that really misses the whole point.

Alan Stone wrote:

For this competition the farmhouse is definately the elite - it is the true judgement of the cidermakers craft

From: Jez Howat <jez....@btinternet.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sunday, 3 June 2012, 13:59
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results

I agree with Mark on this - I cannot remember ever seeing 'Farmhouse' taken
in anything but a complementary way - though I kind of see it as a type of
cider in itself: draught, still and unfiltered...

Michael Cobb

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:52:13 AM6/4/12
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> I thought from Michael's original transcription on this thread it was the
> Burrow Hill *sweet* that was Reserve Supreme Champion Cider (OCC1), the
> Medium being Best Farmhouse Cider (OCS2)? - but that doesn't make sense
> thinking about it. So it was the Medium?
>
I have the photocopy in front of me

Champion cider entry 182 Ashridge Cider from Class 6 Bottle fermented

Reserve Julian Temperley entry 124 Sweet from Class 2 open sweet - not the
farmhouse

Best Farmhouse Julian Temperley entry 417 from class 14 Farmhouse Medium

Michael Cobb

Jez Howat

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Jun 4, 2012, 5:53:44 AM6/4/12
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Alan, I was an entrant too (or doesn’t that count as I live outside of Somerset?). And, I can think of one or two categories in the Bath and West crop that demonstrate the cider makers skill far better than a farmhouse cider – though a great farmhouse cider is still testament to the producers skill.

 

Mind you, I expect that it is subjective and depends on who you ask as to the answer you get?

 

Not entirely sure why we are arguing the toss over cider/dessert apples though – both arguments seem to be correct: there are a group of apples classified as ‘cider’ apples, and you can make cider from any apple – and some very good ciders have never seen a ‘cider’ apple. There are some varieties of apple that don’t make decent cider (depending on where you are in the world) but that is not a whole classification of apple.

 

Jez

Alan Stone

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Jun 4, 2012, 6:18:58 AM6/4/12
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Jez - worried that one or two of the enteries in this tread have made me slightly appear something of a trogladite I do not feel! The link above is to an article which appeared in the Western Daily Press on Saturday by Chris Rundle - I think it reflects my attitudes and wide church approach better than I am able to.
 
Watch out for the picture it - be warned
 
By the way if anyone wants the book it can be ordered online at www.somersethistory.co.uk - or is that too much of a commercial.

From: Jez Howat <jez....@btinternet.com>
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Monday, 4 June 2012, 10:53
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results

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Andrew Lea

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Jun 4, 2012, 6:27:27 AM6/4/12
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On 04/06/2012 10:26, Cheshire Matt wrote:
>
>
> And yes, overall winning style is not surprising - the choice of M Blanc
> suggests an effort to move cider from the barn to the dining table. I
> know some think this is how the drink should go, as an alternative to
> wine, but at the Bath & West?

There is always a 'celebrity judge' on the panel at B&W so rest assured
that the choice of Raymond Blanc does not indicate anything about a
shift in style. In fact he was a good choice not only because he is an
entertaining personality (even off-screen) but also because he has a
genuine interest in apples (he has planted a considerable orchard of
heritage varieties at his flagship restaurant Le Manoir) and has an
obvious interest in high quality food and drink.

Just to clarify - the 'Best in Show' / 'Champion' awards are selected
from those that have already been winners in the other classes, so that
for example the Ashridge bottle fermented was selected as best in its
class by Julian Temperley and myself as sole judges of that class, and
then it went forward to compete and to win against all the other
winners. Raymond Blanc was involved in that final assessment (as well as
being a judge for the mainstream bottled classes). The overall choice of
Ashridge for Champion was because it was damn good, not because of any
hidden agenda to do farmhouse down!

I do not think there is any attempt to move cider at B&W "from the barn
to the dining table" (I'm sure Rupert will confirm that). The classes as
I see it are intended to reflect the overall diversity of ciders,
(principally from the UK but there is an international class too). Both
bottled and farmhouse styles are equally important in my view (after
all, cider has been bottled with sugar and carbonation since the 1640's
so we are not dealing with some new flash-in-the-pan style here!) and
attract roughly equal numbers of entrants. I have entered and won prizes
in both in past years but I don't regard one as any more prestigious
than the other. Some cidermakers such as Julian Temperley have shown
that they can excel both commercially and in competition with farmhouse,
conventionally bottled and bottle fermented ciders.

Despite the large number of classes at B&W, which at first sight seems
unnecessarily prolific, I think it is good to separate out different
styles of cider in that way. Not only does it celebrate different styles
of cider but it allows them as far as possible to be judged on their own
merits.

Andrew

Mark Shirley

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Jun 4, 2012, 6:29:55 AM6/4/12
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So do you agree with this statement from the article? '...they (West Country cidermakers*) make up the 115 profiles of those involved in producing what are now generally recognised as the finest ciders in the world'.
 
*my insertion for clarity
 
Mark

Andrew Lea

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Jun 4, 2012, 6:34:23 AM6/4/12
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On 04/06/2012 11:18, Alan Stone wrote:

> By the way if anyone wants the book it can be ordered online at
> www.somersethistory.co.uk <http://www.somersethistory.co.uk> - or is
> that too much of a commercial.

I think we'll allow you, Alan! [BTW I have changed the thread topic for
this because we have at least 3 different ones running under the same
title now!]

I have been reading it since I got home from the show and it's a jolly
good book for anyone with an interest in West Country cider and by whom
and how it is now being made. I rather like some of Alan's opinions and
asides - he is not insulting to anyone (though I hope he knows a good
lawyer just in case!) but he is definitely forthright in his views!

Andrew

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Nick Bradstock

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Jun 4, 2012, 7:36:22 AM6/4/12
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>On 04/06/2012 10:26, Cheshire Matt wrote:
>
>
> And yes, overall winning style is not surprising - the choice of M
> Blanc suggests an effort to move cider from the barn to the dining
> table. I know some think this is how the drink should go, as an
> alternative to wine, but at the Bath & West?

And now Nick Bradstock would like to put his two penn'orth forward for
consideration:

Andrew puts the matter clearly. The judges of the Show's Supreme Champion
(Raymond Blanc, Mrs Jane Andersson - Master of the Worshipful Company of
Fruiterers, Helen Thomas and myself) were unanimous that Ashridge Bottle
Fermented Cider was the outright winner. A well-balanced entirely clean
full-bodied and enticing cider with a intriguing nose, as brilliantly clear
as the eye could judge and with a good mousse (pardon my French). The skill
and effort at every stage of production that this represents deserves
recognition - as do the other 1st placed ciders from other classes that it
stood up against but which did not topple it from the supreme position.
I suggest that the purpose of the RB&W competition is to recognise and
promote excellence in the world of '162 cider & perry' and that's what all
the judges set out to do.
I would further suggest that the competition is not intended to favour cider
made only from 'recognised' cider apples - but cider made from apples that
the cider maker has chosen to make cider from. I for one am glad to detect
a widening range of styles that does not seek to limit the fruit to certain
varieties only. I recall some years ago now that cider makers from outside
the South West and West Midlands complained bitterly that their ciders stood
no chance against the bitter-sweet dominated competition. Now that skill
and quality of discernment has improved all cider almost beyond recognition,
we can look forward to a more exciting period of choice among well-made
ciders and perries.

Thank you
Nick


jez....@btinternet.com

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Jun 4, 2012, 7:40:15 AM6/4/12
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Alan,

We'll let you get away with that one.

There are two parts to this - firstly cider making is in no way simply a South West thing anymore - if it ever really was.

Secondly, I think Bath and West reflects this and therefore no single or group of categories can be seen as more or less important. For example, take keeved cider - I won't quote the author:-) but it is an art in its own right. You have to start with the right apples etc. etc.

To be honest, as a new(ish) producer the 'traditional' farmhouse is most important view doesn't really bother me - despite the fact that 80 percent of my cider is sold that way.

Jez
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone on O2

From: Alan Stone <shepton...@btinternet.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2012 11:18:58 +0100 (BST)
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results

Alan Stone

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Jun 4, 2012, 7:46:36 AM6/4/12
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It is not my statement, journalist distortion - in the book I give all walks and types of cider equal profile - in fact I vere towards critism of straight farmhouse ciders where not a lot else has been done, especially some of the worst of the straw and oak barrel brigade! I critisied these in my previous book as well - I certainly sing the praises of keeved and bottle conditioned ciders and include some bottle carbonated ciders amoungst my favourites - however I would certainly think that some of the finest cider makers in the world are located in the south west!

Andrew Lea

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Jun 4, 2012, 8:30:08 AM6/4/12
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On 04/06/2012 12:36, Nick Bradstock wrote:

> I would further suggest that the competition is not intended to favour cider
> made only from 'recognised' cider apples - but cider made from apples that
> the cider maker has chosen to make cider from. I for one am glad to detect
> a widening range of styles that does not seek to limit the fruit to certain
> varieties only.

Witness that Gospel Green cider from Sussex, made from dessert and
culinary varieties only, was awarded 2nd prize by Julian and myself in
the bottle fermented class. Interestingly it was flanked by Ashridge
(already discussed) and Bollhayes, both of which were made from 'cider
apples'. It evidently lacked the tannin of the other two, but that
didn't stop it being an excellent well balanced and complex cider that
was worthy of a place.

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 4, 2012, 9:23:19 AM6/4/12
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Andrew Lea wrote:
> Witness that Gospel Green cider from Sussex, made from dessert and
> culinary varieties only, was awarded 2nd prize by Julian and myself in
> the bottle fermented class.  Interestingly it was flanked by Ashridge
> (already discussed) and Bollhayes, both of which were made from 'cider
> apples'. It evidently lacked the tannin of the other two, but that
> didn't stop it being an excellent well balanced and complex cider that
> was worthy of a place.

Considering this statement by Andrew, could anyone explain for me why
ciders from outside of England have to be put in a special
"International" category??? The last time I asked this question, I was
told that a cider that didn't have this special "Three counties" taste
profile stood no chance and thus this special international category
was created for them. But it appears this isn't true anymore!
So, as a suggestion to the organizers, maybe keep the farmhouse
categories for true traditional English cider, and open all the
bottled categories to make this a true international competition! This
would surely make it more interesting.
Claude,
in Quebec, Canada...

david evans

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Jun 4, 2012, 9:40:06 AM6/4/12
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I had the pleasure of meeting Alan and listening to one of his talks. It was very intresting. I also had a chat with Liz Copas and Neil from Orchard Pig, I would to thank all three of them for taking the time to talk to me. Their knowledge, enthuisasm and friendliness is fantastic. I would recomend to everyone they take the time to visit the B&W to meet them.
David, Auckland NZ.

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Barry Eastwood

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Jun 3, 2012, 1:48:09 AM6/3/12
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It sounds like a highly successful event.



I know it is not customary to ask for feed back, but since my cider traveled
a long way (from NZ), I'm wondering, for those who may have tasted it, if
they found that there were any obvious faults with it.



The reason I ask is, if there were issues due to the cider it self, or
though the cause of distance and storage.



I would like to retry next year, and would like to eliminate any concerns
due to travel.



Regards Barry

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Lea" <y...@cider.org.uk>
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2012 2:13 AM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Bath and West Results


On this topic, I thought people might be interested in some statistics
on the numbers submitted this year for each class (give or take a few
samples that didn't turn up and some late entrants):

OC1 Bottled Dry Cider 47
OC2 Bottled Medium Cider 54
OC3 Bottled Sweet Cider 29

OC4 Bottled Organic Cider 5
OC5 Bottled Cider judged on presentation
and contents 44

OC6 Bottle Fermented Cider (Disgorged) 12
OC7 Bottle Conditioned Cider (Bouch�) 13

OC8 Bottled Single Varietal Ciders 28

OC9 Single Variety Juice 25
OC10 Carbonated Juice 6
OC11 Blended Apple Juice 22

OC12 Bottled Perry 28

OC13 Farmhouse Dry Cider 62
OC14 Farmhouse Medium Cider 50
OC15 Farmhouse Sweet Cider 40

OC16 International Cider 29


Numerically, the main Bottled classes (1-3) at 130 total entries and the
Farmhouse classes (13-15) at 152 total entries are the major groups and
cover well over half of the total entry numbers. Three entries per
entrant per class are permitted and many entrants obviously take
advantage of this (this is why people can win more than once per class -
if the judges like a particular sample they may well like others from
the same stable, without of course being aware of the provenance at the
time).

Disclaimer - I have nothing to do with the organisation! This data was
taken from the catalogue of entries which becomes available after the
judging.

Andrew

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Mike Beck

unread,
Jun 5, 2012, 12:51:10 PM6/5/12
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com

It is interesting to see the discussion after good competitions. Especially from my point of view as one of the many organizers of the Great Lakes International Cider & Perry Competition. (GLINTCAP)  We have some of the same discussion here post competition...  types of classes, types of fruit, styles of cider,  size of classes, etc.  All of which can create interesting discussion.

I appreciate the efforts of the organizers and appreciate the effort to remove any entry fee for international classes.(GLINTCAP does the same) Shipping ciders across the Atlantic is pricey.  I appreciate Andrew's comment about the need to divide cider into classes.  I think it would be helpful to divide up the International class as well.  Spanish Cider is a different style than French Cider, which is different than Apfelwein, which is different than dare I say.... North  American style cider, etc. 

Claude mentioned opening International Ciders to more classes,  I support that Idea, However, I respect the rights of the organizers to keep some things sacred.  I will encourage other cider makers on this Atlantic to send samples next year.

 

I appreciate Nick comments about apple varieties...

> I would further suggest that the competition is not intended to favour

cider

> made only from 'recognised' cider apples - but cider made from apples

> that the cider maker has chosen to make cider from. I for one am glad

> to detect a widening range of styles that does not seek to limit the

> fruit to

certain

> varieties only.

 

This is how we make cider @ my cidery. (Uncle John's) I do not have the option of having true cider specific apples. (available in tractor trailer loads anyway)  But we do have many varieties that have been around here  for a long time that have a history for use in cider (American).  More growers are planting more cider specific varieties. (English, French & American)  So I am excited about the future of our growing cider industry here.  I am not sure about where the apples used for our cider would be classed here or in

England.   Winesap, Baldwin, Rhode Island Greening, Winter Banana, Northern

Spy, & Jonathan is what makes the blend for our recognized cider. Some of these at one time or another may have been called a dessert apple. Outside of Jonathon, it is difficult to impossible to find them on grocery shelves today.  Thanks again to the RB&WS organizers, it is no easy task to work through that many samples in a days time.

Mike Beck

St. John’s, Michigan (USA)

 

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