Cloudy Cider
Matt Newbury
cloudy, where as the, if you like professional cider, is always clear.
Is it far to say that cloudiness is always due to poorer
manufacturing, or are there apple varieties that don't completely
clear, or even unique qualities to a young, uncleared cider?
Is anybody marketing a deliberately cloudy cider? And if so what is
your selling point.
thanks
Mark Shirley
producers, perhaps even a must have in their portfolio. I notice that
Gwynt-Y-Ddraig have just started marketing a 'cloudy scrumpy'
(http://www.gwyntcider.com/gyd/index.php/bottled/farmhouse-cloudy-scrumpy),
I can't imagine that it tastes better than an unfiltered 'clear' cider, so
it can surely only be a marketing strategy. Addlestones and Old Rosie are
two brands which play on their 'cloudy' nature, though quite where the
cloudiness comes from is not always made clear...geddit!
For myself, I've made ciders from a number of cider varieties over the
years, including Dabinett, Harry Masters', Yarlington Mill, Vilberie,
Kingston Black, Tremletts Bitter, Brown's, Sweet Alford, Sweet Coppin,
Michelin, Bulmers Norman etc. plus many different varieties of dessert and
culinary apple, and given sufficient time they have all cleared naturally.
In some cases this may be several months after fermentation has finished,
but they will always clear in my experience, particularly if bottled. The
only exception to this I've found is the Green Horse perry pears we use,
which finish opaque (not cloudy) and remain that way no matter how long we
store in bulk or bottle. I think there are many perry pears which behave
this way.
So, here's my opinion for what it's worth. Big brand 'cloudy' ciders are a
marketing thing. Sadly, I think cloudy ciders like these are one of several
factors which contribute to a continuing belief by many in the drinks
industry, particularly drinks writers and brewers, that cider is a category
that doesn't deserve to be taken too seriously. The evidence for this is in
the infrequent, and generally poor standard of reporting of cider in the
media compared to wine, spirits, and even beer. Whatever the marketing dept
might like to say, I simply don't believe that a cloudy cider projects a
quality image to anyone but those who mistakenly believe that cider 'should'
be cloudy. This can't be right, but I can't see it changing in the near
future...
As for smaller scale cidermakers, I feel that cloudy cider is almost
entirely down to time factors, though there may also be lack of care issues
when barreling too. There is often a pressure from retailers to start
selling cider a little earlier than is desirable. Beer festivals may want
their local ciders available on the bar, even if this means that they are
not yet at their best. I've certainly succumbed to this kind of persuation
in the past, and have usually regretted it afterwards. For this years Leics
Beer Festival, I kept back cider and perry from the 2009 pressing to supply
for the cider bar, rather than send very young, and possibly cloudy cider to
the event. I guess this is something all small producers 'could' do, but it
does take a bit of will-power to either hold cider back which could possibly
deteriorate in storage (space in a small ciderhouse could be an issue too),
or say no to very early requests for cider that may be good enough to sell,
but is certainly not at its best yet.
Cheers, Mark
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nfcider
I too echo your sentiments,unfortunately economics do play apart as
having sold all your 2009's stock what do you do to keep your regulars
happy,though this year the lateness in finishing fermenting and the
malo-lactic does cause havoc with the BIB's unless there used Quickly.
Barry
On May 22, 12:09 pm, "Mark Shirley" <markshirle...@btinternet.com>
wrote:
Mark Shirley
until August before selling a drop. It certainly tastes better then, and
there would be no issues with clearing, but I'd also need at least 60% more
storage capacity and a much bigger ciderhouse which is not really possible.
It's all a bit of a juggle and compromise, even when it's just a hobby like
it is for me when you'd think there would be no compulsion to sell until the
cider was at its absolute peak...
I've had plenty of 'new season' cider straight from bulk storage in March,
particularly when I used to source all the cider and perry for the Leics
Beer Fest myself. I used to love the zesty, spritzy freshness of the ciders
at this time, something quite different to a fully mature cider, and none
the less pleasant for it. Even then, I can't remember ever being offered
much 'cloudy' cider.
Mark
Jez Howat
filter our cider it will not be 'bright' - as you can only really get
through filtering... sure, it is clear, but not see through!!
Also, I find with my bottle conditioned cider that it drops clear with a
layer of sediment at the bottom. Therefore, if the punter wants their cider
cloudy they just shake the bottle and voila! So, it does depend on what you
want - I would not agree that a cloudy cider is necessarily any worse or
better than clear ciders. In fact, if a cider was crystal clear I would be
thinking that it had been heavily filtered... so I think you have to look
beyond the cloudiness to decide whether its good cider or not.
All the best
Jez
nfcider
flavour,"beauty is in the eye of the beholder"they say.
Barry
Mark Shirley
> better than clear ciders. In fact, if a cider was crystal clear I would be
> thinking that it had been heavily filtered... so I think you have to look
> beyond the cloudiness to decide whether its good cider or not.
True, but cloudiness is (unless it's caused by something else of course!!!)
generally the result of yeast not settling out for removal, and I personally
don't like the taste of yeast, and don't think it's desirable in cider.
Haziness can be a different thing, pectin/proteins etc. It doesn't look
'cloudy', and it's usually not detrimental to taste, but even then I would
suggest that the longer a cider is correctly stored, the clearer it will
get. It's cider you can't see through, and the all too widely held belief
that this is how cider should be that I strongly disagree with. IMO
cidermakers should be aiming for a drink which is as attractive and
proffesional looking as possible. It is frequently mentioned on here that
cider has more in common with wine than beer, so perhaps the standards that
the wine industry acheive should be the benchmark for what cidermakers
should be aiming for themselves (in an ideal world of course). Would anyone
on here accept cloudy wine as the best it can be?
Mark
Tim
makers last night and about 75% of the cider was clear, my own is virtually
as clear as a bell and the rest will drop out the same I am sure, no
filtering required.
Tim in Dorset
All the best
Jez
Ray Blockley
Our cider also usually drops clear but sometimes has a detectable haze of
various degrees that never goes, even when left for over a year or so and
racked. You can always 'see through it' but when held up to the light or
caught in sunlight, the haze is there.
Much of this haze I attribute to the fact that we currently tend to blend
after fermentation and I seem to recall a post (by Andrew?) about the
'problem' of hazes caused by post fermentation blending. Certainly, we have
recently blended some clear ciders to get the taste we were after and have
ended up with a hazy cider. Some of this we bottled and left for a couple of
weeks, followed by a week or so in the fridge to see if the haze would 'fall
out', but it hasn't. Not yet anyway...
When we made our 100% Jonagold cider (we beat Stella Artois to it...?) in
2009, it dropped very clear and bright, quite quickly and readily. No
blending took place.
So hazy cider I can live with. Cloudy cider doesn't bother me if it is
natural - and not due to fault / infection of course - and not artificially
forced / faked or due to the cider being far too young. I'd sooner drink a
hazy or 'cloudy' cider (to a degree) than one that had been filtered or
fiddled with in some other mechanical, physical or chemical way. BTW: When I
made wine, I used a whole range of additives and finings to ensure clarity.
Cheers,
Ray.
thanks
--
Ray Blockley
> Would anyone on here accept cloudy wine as the best it can be?
The 'problem' here is that most (the vast majority?) of wines -
professional, craft or homemade - are fined with something like a protein
fining (Albumen / egg white was the traditional way) or with a
non-animal-based fining like Bentonite or filtered - or even some
combination of all three.
I know from experience that wines can clear on their own, like ciders, but
are we talking about 'clear' to the eye or 'polished'?
I don't know the answer. Time and correct storage I'd agree is the best
solution, but sometimes hazes don't go away.
BTW: Looking at some of the very high-res photos I took at Powerstock
yesterday, many of those ciders were 'cloudy' or at best 'hazy' and many
were from 2009.
Cheers,
Ray.
Mark Shirley
producer added. Could you please forward this to the Notts CAMRA webmaster,
I forwarded the last update to the contact given on the site some time ago,
but it has not made it onto the website.
Cheers, Mark
Mark Shirley
Mark
CiderHead
looked up. A quote from Denis AKA BathCyder "I get sent catalogues of
'beverage ingredients'. In one of these catalogues I found a product
called 'Fake Cloud'...".
I wondered then what the "active" ingredient was but never persued the
issue. Does anyone know?
I make cider from all sort of weird and wonderful varieties. I don't
think I could make a cloudy cider at all; it just always clears on
it's own (eventually). Perhaps a hint of haze, yes, but truly murky
cloud - no.
Cheers,
Martin
Andrew Lea
> This subject reminded me of a post some while ago which I've just
> looked up. A quote from Denis AKA BathCyder "I get sent catalogues of
> 'beverage ingredients'. In one of these catalogues I found a product
> called 'Fake Cloud'...".
>
> I wondered then what the "active" ingredient was but never persued the
> issue. Does anyone know?
It is impossible to be sure because so many different types of
ingredients can be used. The primary use of 'clouding agents' is in soft
drinks. They all fundamentally work as emulsifiers so they need a
hydrophilic end e.g pectin or protein and a hydrophobic end e.g. citrus
oil or a vegetable oil. Then if they are well comminuted and homogenised
the droplets / particles stay so small and repel each other so well that
they never settle out.
Sometimes just the normal drinks ingredients will suffice if they are
well homogenised e.g. I have a can of Cloudy Lemonade which doesn't
declare any clouding agent but it does have 4% lemon comminute in it so
that is probably where the cloud comes from without anything extra
needing to be added. You can sometimes get a clue from the ingredients
list e.g. I have a bottle of cloudy fruit squash which is more highly
formulated and declares carboxymethyl cellulose as an ingredient. Almost
certainly this when comminuted / homogenised with the oils in the fruit
base is what gives the stable cloud.
Some natural emulsifiers also allow creation of a stable head of foam -
for this reason quillaia extract has been used for years in UK 'ginger
beer' to provide both cloud and foam. Anything used must of course
conform in the EU to the "Miscellaneous Additives in Foods" Regulations
(so they will all have E numbers), or in the US to FDA regs. The patent
in this link gives some background to the ways in which the formulation
of 'clouding agents' can be approached (skip the adverts and look at the
Description text and some of the other patent links)
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4790998.html
Sorry if this is a bit off topic but the question was asked!
Andrew
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http://www.cider.org.uk