Actual pressing speed Voran 100P1 and P2

[Дмитрий Тихомиров]

Hello colleagues,

This year I'm going to buy press to produce 10.000 liters of apple and pear juice (cider and perry as well) and I disposed to choose Voran 100P2, but next year I have a plan to increase my production up to 50.000 liters and I beware that 100P2 won't be enough to cover my needs.
Voran 100P2 declared productivity up to 600kg/h, so theoretically I can produce 3.360 liters per working day (8 working hours and 70% juice yield). These figures looks OK to me, but I wondered what is the real productivity of 100P2?
How much milled apples or pears I can load in press at once in kilos or in liters?
How long it takes to press each load in minutes?

PS. or maybe I should consider another type of press....

Thank you for your assistance.

Dmitrii

[Ben]

Hi,

I would say the numbers are right if you just look at the press alone. In an 8 hour day is the press always going to being loaded, unloaded & pressing.

You would always have but there ready to load and would need to work quickly, but to achieve that you will need some form of production line at the milling end too leaving 1 person fully allocated to pressing. E.g you would also need to mill and wash 6000 apples per hour as well so you either need a few people of a way of tipping bins and moving them.

Just as a comparison we can do 400KG per hour (2400L per day), but to achieve that we need 3 people (although 4 is much more chilled out). Our press currently only has one bed so if we added a second we would go up to around 700KG per hour. Our bed is bigger than a voran press but it takes slightly longer per press.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTc0S50iKgc

One further point to consider is cleaning/collecting apples from growers. We spend about the same amount of time cleaning/setup as we do pressing... So again if you are thinking an 8 hour day, you may end up spending 2 hours cleaning. Ours is longer as we reuse IBCs that are a pain to clean and also as we only press a few times a year there is always more setup and initial cleaning than expected.

Thanks,

Ben

[Remo Trovato]

Dimitrii
If you are ramping up production that much, the question to ask yourself is: what about the year after? if it would be the same increase in production?
We used a packpress of that size and were able to produce about 2500 liters/ day on average. The cleanup is hard and long though and you definitely need 2-3 people.
We now use a Kreuzmayr belt press and work it with one person. It's a lovely continuous process with relatively easy cleanup.
The KEB 400 did about 700 liters / hour (with good apples) and about half that with soft / deteriorated apples.
We never regreted moving to a continuous process. Much easier, faster and economical.
Hope that helps.
Remo

[Barrie Gibson]

We had one of those and in my experience we got around 1500 Litres a day. You might think about a small belt press if you want more.
Barrie Gibson
Fowey Valley Cider

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[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

We had one as well. Totally agree with Barrie: You need a belt press.

Guy Williams

Skidbrooke Cyder

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 30 mai 2016 04:18:43 UTC-4, Дмитрий Тихомиров a écrit :

Hello colleagues,

This year I'm going to buy press to produce 10.000 liters of apple and pear juice (cider and perry as well) and I disposed to choose Voran 100P2, but next year I have a plan to increase my production up to 50.000 liters and I beware that 100P2 won't be enough to cover my needs.
Voran 100P2 declared productivity up to 600kg/h, so theoretically I can produce 3.360 liters per working day (8 working hours and 70% juice yield). These figures looks OK to me, but I wondered what is the real productivity of 100P2?

Hello Dmitrii

You've got pretty good advices from others, but I'll add a few more considerations.
If you work from the manufacturer's productivity, it is good to only take about 80% of that number - as in a pressing day, you'll always have something that will slow things down...
Also, from a 8 hour working day, you should substract about 2 hours for setting up and cleaning, hence only 6 useful pressing hours.
So, taking this with the declared productivity of the Voran, you get 600 kg/h * 80% * 6 hours - that's a little less than 3 tons. So 2000 liters per day is a good guess for this press. And this is quite in line with what the others have said.

In general, I think a cider producer should be able to get its total annual production in about 15 pressing days. It can be 10 if you have a press with more capacity, or you can stretch this to 20 days, but not much more unless you are ready to put your apples in cold storage and press through winter.

So in your case and with this press, a production of around 30000 liters per year would be fine. Stretching to 50000, you might regret it at some point in the future.

Note that most producers in France that are in the range of 40000 to 60000 liters now have upgraded from a pack press to either a belt press, or even more often to a horizontal pneumatic press.
For belt presses, Kreuzmayr is very popular. You may consider also Voran or Amos.
For pneumatic presses, note this is a batch press (unlike the belt press which is continuous). Each pressing takes about 2 hours depending on the selected cycle program, so you can normally make 3 pressings per day. Hence you could select a 2-ton capacity to process 6 tons of apples per day, so twice as much as the pack press you were considering. Or a 3-ton model... (They make them up to about 15-ton capacity). See Della Toffola or ATI for examples of such presses.
Claude

[Дмитрий Тихомиров]

Ben, Remo, Barrie, Guy and Claude thank you very much for your advises.

This topic is metamorphosed to question what is better "belt press" or "pneumatic horizontal press" with the same productivity?
I know that in France very popular pneumatic horizontal press from Bucher company.

Dmitrii

[Claude Jolicoeur]

The Bucher is much larger and more expensive than those I was suggesting, and doesn't work on the same principle - it is really an horizontal hydraulic press.
As to which is the better, I can't say. I don't know of any producer who has one of each and could give an honest opinion. Those producers that I know that have a belt press are pleased with it and think it is the better, and those that have an horizontal pneumatic press are also pleased and think just as highly of their press. So I guess both are good. I think you should mostly look at availability and service, which company has the better distribution where you are...
Claude

[Andrew Lea]

There are two types of Bucher presses relevant to this discussion AFAIR. 

The Bucher Vaslin is a horizontal pneumatic press developed from a grape press but also suitable for apples. I have seen it used for medium scale juice and cider making in Australia. The Bucher Guyer is the full scale horizontal hydraulic press which is used by all the major manufacturers of apple juice. It is hugely expensive as Claude says and unlikely to be affordable by anyone on this list. It comes in various sizes I think from memory from 2 to 20 tons capacity per hour.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hello again

Having run a P2 and a belt press: I would not consider running 50,000 litres through a hydraulic cheese press.  The belt press is easier to run and (arguably) easier to clean down.

Personal opinion.

Off to the show!

Best wishes

Guy.

[Nicholas Bradstock]

To add to Andrew's comment - the BG horizontal press is immensely capable and can be operated to extract juice at consistently high yield rates from any juice-containing fruit or vegetable or whatever.

This characteristic is, I would say, unique and justifies its demands of very high purchase and installation cost which suit it to the largest operators (say 50,000 hectolitres or more).

The operating principle and construction has been proven by its success since the 60s and remain little changed - although now automated......

End of plug!!

iPhone

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

50 000 hl? That much? Its more than 10 times Quebec's cider production. Is there cideries that produces that much cider anually?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I visited El Gaitero in Villaviciosa, Spain. Their annual production is of the order of 27 million liters... And they did have this Bucher press in addition to 2 large 9-ton capacity horizontal pneumatic presses. In one room, there were 96 tanks, 56 000 liters each - roughly 5 million liters fermenting. Another building besides was just a bit smaller. When there I thought if a bomb fell on the building, I'd drown in a sea of cider.
But in England, I am sure there are some like Bulmer's that are much larger than that.
Claude

[Chris Schmidt]

This cidery outside Gijon produces several million litres as well, using these massive hydraulic presses…the fermentation tanks are massive, and my annual production would fit into one of their barrels.

For those asking questions of belt vs horizontal presses, most producers in BC favour the belt presses for the reason Claude mentioned earlier; easy to service and low labour requirements (amongst other reasons). Based on my research, the belt press is the way to go.

Chris Schmidt

On Jun 1, 2016, at 6:32 PM, luis.ga...@gmail.com wrote:

50 000 hl? That much? Its more than 10 times Quebec's cider production. Is there cideries that produces that much cider anually?

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 2 juin 2016 00:04:01 UTC-4, Chris Schmidt a écrit :

This cidery outside Gijon produces several million litres as well, using these massive hydraulic presses…the fermentation tanks are massive, and my annual production would fit into one of their barrels.

Was that picture taken at Trabanco?

[Chris Schmidt]

Yes, quite the place!

Chris Schmidt

Tod Creek Craft Cider Inc

Sent from my iPhone 

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

So, to come back to the subject of pressing equipment for a 50 000 L production, those big traditional spanish presses can load about 4 tons of apples and produce some 2 000 L per pressing. It takes about 2 days per pressing, so with 2 of those Dmitrii could make his production. If he isn't too far from Spain, I am sure he could get a couple of them used for cheap...
Many of the Spanish makers I have seen had switched to horizontal pneumatic (this is why I am sure the old ones can be bought second hand) - I have seen a lot more of those than belt presses over in Spain.
And true, in N.America, very few horizontal pneumatic, and a lot of belt presses. Interestingly also, most of american belt presses have 2 belts, while most European models are single belt... Again, I couldn't say which is the best...
Claude

Le jeudi 2 juin 2016 00:04:01 UTC-4, Chris Schmidt a écrit :

[Juliette B]

Hello everyone,

Sorry for re-opening the discussion 2 years after.

I saw your discussion about pneumatic press and I was wondering if anyone could help with the issue I have today.

I recently purschased a Bucher Vaslin pneumatic press. It is a second hand press that used to press grapes and I want to use it to press grinded apples. However, I have no idea on which pressure and timing apply to create an apple-pressing program. Has anyone experienced it before? I have been told that pressing grapes varies each year so I guess pressing grapes and apples varies even more !  

Of course, I'll have to make settings according to apple varieties, the size of grinding and maturation but any advice would help a lot !

Thanks !

[Andrew Lea]

I would suggest that you talk to the Bucher agent for whichever country you are in. It is my understanding that a Bucher Vaslin grape press  cannot be used to press apple pulp directly, because it is much firmer than grape mash and so the juice yields will be low. The press has to be modified internally with flexible juice collection ducts running through the body of the mash to get good yields. However I have seen such modified presses being used successfully in Australia. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Juliet Bourely]

Hello Andrew, 

thanks for your answer. I'm writing from France, apparently Bucher stopped producing the "cider kit" (more or less socks to protect drains), so if we don't find one we'll have to clean the drains more often.

But the agent from Bucher I bought the press from is in a wine region so he does not have experience on apples... Anyone in the forum has experience pressing apples with a pneumatic press? I would be happy to ask a couple of questions on the programs (duration, pressure, time at each level).

Juliet Bourely

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