Carbonic maceration of crabs (results of home trial)

[Jeffrey Lewis]

I didn't find much online reference information concerning carbonic maceration of apples so I decided to run a trial at home.  Thought you guys might be interested.  I live in northern Sweden and all the apples available to me have high TA values due to the cool climate.  The only tannins that are available are in crab apples which have TA values that are very high : often over 25 tartaric (off my titration scale).  I would like to figure out a reliable method to decrease those values.

Method:  60 kg of crab apples (average diameter 2-3 cm) placed in three garbage bags (each about a third filled) and vacuumed as much air out as possible.  Then I filled the bags with CO2, sealed them and put them in my sauna at 30 C for three days. 

Results:  Initial TA: around 22 tartaric.  Final TA: around 8 tartaric.  I did notice a slight decrease in SG as well (from 52 to 48) which I interpret as a chemical breakdown of sugars.  The apples were brown and looked bruised at the end of the treatment but tasted fine (and had a noticeably lower acidity).  I can't comment on the mechanism of the decrease in TA or even if it is similar to how things work in grapes.  This was a purely empirical assessment. 

I would appreciate it if someone could reproduce this test.  Based on initial results it seems to be a promising method for reducing TA, which appears to be a common problem for cider producers.  Anyone know if this has been tried before?  Calling on Andrew Lea and Claude Jolicoeur and the rest of the forum's brain trust....

I took intermediate measurements over the course of the three days and could report those in an excel file if there is interest.

Jeff

[downside perry]

Id imagine the tannin dropped a lot as well. Did it?

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Hard to determine absolute loss, I have no analytical methods available to measure tannins.  

Using taste alone to judge, there are still distinct tannins in the juice.  That is really all I can say.

Skickat från min iPhone

1 nov. 2017 kl. 16:12 skrev downside perry <downsi...@gmail.com>:

Id imagine the tannin dropped a lot as well. Did it?

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Hello Jeff,
This is a quite interesting experiment! For my part I have never tried anything like that.
However there is a cidery in Quebec, Cidrerie Milton (formely Vergers de la Colline) that does a maceration of Dolgo crabs in order to extract the color from the skin and thus produce a rosé cider. What the cidermaker told me is that they do this maceration at relatively warm temperature (he didn't tell me the temperature however), and after grinding the fruit.
Do you know the Dolgo? It is quite a popular crab here in Quebec, used a lot for making a very tasty deep red jelly. It is very acidic, with TA usually around 25 g/L as malic.
He didn't tell me if this did also reduce the TA of the juice, but it is possible. Nor did he mention if this was done under CO2 atmosphere.
Claude

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Hi Claude:  

I only know the Dolgos from your book unfortunately.  But we have a wild crab up here that also gives a very deep red juice.   That variety was the lion’s share of my crabs and I am crying concentrating it right now.  I will send a photo later.

I did run a control in air that showed similar results  with respect to TA, it just proceeded slower. 

Skickat från min iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

[Since i have been specifically invited to comment]. This is fascinating. I’ve never heard of such a thing done with apples before. Although, as I said in a post some months ago, the biology of malate respiration in Malus domestica is well known so it isn’t a total surprise. I’d also be interested to know just what sort of wild red crab apple you have in northern Sweden. Or is it a cultivar? What species of Malus is it? 

I guess the only way to tell how successful this is for cider making is to do it, and see what the result is like. 

Btw it would be better to quote your acids ‘as malic’ rather than ‘as tartaric’ which could mislead people into thinking that there is actually tartaric acid in your apples. Multiply your figures by 0.89 to get the correct value. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

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[Bartek Knapek]

I found that even a plain maceration can decrease TA.

In my case, after 24h at ~18C, the TA (malic) dropped 1g/L (7,5->6,5).

[Andrew Lea]

Yes I remember you said that before. I’m not sure if it’s general. Warcollier (1928) reviewed 3 studies of maceration. One showed acid going up, one showed it going down, and one showed no change! He doesn’t give any figures. I don’t recall any modern studies of this.

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Miguel Pereda]

El jueves, 2 de noviembre de 2017, 8:41:38 (UTC+1), Bartek Knapek escribió:

I found that even a plain maceration can decrease TA.

In my case, after 24h at ~18C, the TA (malic) dropped 1g/L (7,5->6,5).

 At 18ºC and with those values of TA, you can think that what makes the TA lower during maceration is the beginning of MLF

 

[woodcarver]

Hi Jeffrey,

If I have time this season I’m going to try to repeat your experiment. You mentioned that you did a control with just air—was did you keep the temperature high?
I don’t have a sauna unfortunately. Going to have to put the apples in a plastic bin and strap on an electric heater.

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Hi Woodcarver

Yes, my control used the same conditions-  with the exception that the control apples were exposed to regular air instead of a CO2-rich environment.

It would be great to get independent confirmation of these results.  I think that one important factor may be that I was using small crabapples.  These have a larger surface/volume ratio than normal apples. 

I'm not sure that the plastic bin/heater setup will provide adequately even heat.  I think you may end up cooking the apples on the heater side and having untreated apples on the other side (or bottom, or top, or whatever).  So whatever setup you use, I would try to insulate it and get as even a heat distribution as possible. 

Good luck!  Let us know your results!

/Jeff

[Johan]

Hello,

This is already quite old post but anyway; Has anyone ever done so called "semi-carbonic maceration" with apples in a way that fermentation vessel is loaded with uncrushed apples and small amount of fermenting juice to release CO2? Any idea of why this would not work in practice/theory?  I would like to try carbonic maceration with very high acidic crab apples to lower some TA but I'm not able to heat the space/vessels enough for traditional carbonic maceration like in Jeff's experimental so this might be option for that? Thanks.

-Johan

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi Johan, 

I've done this with regular apples (no reason why it wouldn't work on crab apples in the same conditions). We filled a 1000L vat with apples, added maybe 75 L of fresh pressed non sulfited juice and closed the vat for a few weeks at approx 16C-18C. It worked perfectly. The juice was extremely fruity compared to the fresh pressed juice, less tart and once fermented out resulted in a really nice bottle carbed cider. 

I can't see the email that describes the temperature for the trial that didn't work, nor how long they were left in the vat though so I can't suggest any reason for it not working unfortunately. 

Cillian Breathnach.

Le Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec. 

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[Johan Strömberg]

Thanks Cillian! 

I was quite sure that nobody has tried this with apples but you posted just the answer I was looking for :)!

-Johan

Cillian Breathnach <cillian.b...@gmail.com> kirjoitti 02.09.2021 kello 16.13:



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[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi Johan, 

Over here in Québec  a lot of cideries do "macération pelliculaire" but I admit I haven't seen any commerical carbonique maceration ciders. To be honest, we just tried it out for fun, liked the result and will likely boost the production this season. I's day go for it :)

Cillian Breathnach.

Le Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec. 

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

I think I will try this this year, as my production of bittersweet varieties isn't great and I might have too  much acidity from my sharp apples...

Cillian, would you care to give a bit more details?

You say you filled a 1000L vessel with apples - I gather these were whole apples and not milled?

This is a regular fermentation tank, I suppose hermetically closed with an air lock?

Then you added 75L of juice that you let ferment. It is then the CO2 produced by this fermentation that fills the vessel and chases the O2 out, so the apples are in a CO2 only environment.

Did that fermentation go to dryness or maybe it is not important.

How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?

I suppose you could also simply ferment water and sugar to produce the CO2...

So once this is done, how do the apples look like? Are they still firm? Color change? You then simply mill and press them?

Did you take TA measurements from the same lot of apples with and without this maceration?

Thanks,

Claude

[James MacLarnon]

Hello 

I am also conducting a home trial on various commercial yeasts: GV13, Lalvin EC-1118 and youngs cider yeast. I'm going to Herefordshire in the coming weeks to collect mainly discovery apples at my Godfather's orchard. We plan on making cider (small scale) and I am the designated lead expert on how to make it. I would like to double check my process with you to ensure I am not making any errors.

1. hired fruit mill/scarifier and press from local cider club

2. collated a small range of cider yeasts to try 

3. bought a few hundred bottles and caps 

4. bought three (approximately 28L) fermentation vessels

5. sterilize/clean all equipment

6. collect apples and turn into pulp 

7. press pulp and collect juice in bucket

8. decant into fermentation vessels

9. add yeast to vessels 

10. allow to ferment for a minimum of two week

11. bottle and add a teaspoon of sugar per bottle to carbonate. 

12. leave for 2 weeks then drink 

Does my order sound sane and logical? Am I missing something? Can I improve upon this?

Cheers

James

[radfordgraham333]

Hi james,

I would say overall your plan is good. 

However, you would most likely benefit from adding SO2 (potassium metabisulfite) in the correct quantity 24 hours before adding yeast. You can measure the PH and go by that or if you don't have test strips you could add 50ppm before fermentation. 

Also, it would be a good idea to transfer the cider to demijohns/carboys(with airlocks) once it has finished fermenting and let it sit for a bit(minimum a few weeks) so that the yeast can settle out before bottling. If you bottle right from the fermenting vessel as soon as fermentation is over, you will most likely have an excessive amount of yeast in each bottle. That's my experience anyways. Also the cider will be better after a bit of aging. If you have the patience I would say to leave it in the demijohns/carboys for a few months before bottling. 

The only other thing is you could add pectic enzyme before fermentation to end up with a clear end product, but it's not at all necessary and as long as you let the yeast settle out, a bit of cloudiness isn't an issue. 

If you search through the forum, you will find tons of useful info. 

Hope that helps, good luck!

Graham 

Sent from my Galaxy

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[Alan Stone]

If you are going to such trouble I would try to get some bittersweet apple and compare the results with your dessert apples. Dessert on the whole do not make the best cider on their own

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[Ray Blockley]

Hi James.

Have you got a copy of Andrew's excellent book "Craft Cider Making: Third Edition"...? That's always an extremely useful resource. 

Or have you studied Andrew's excellent resource on-line? http://www.cider.org.uk/

Advice given by others so far is sound. 
Alan has a point depending on what style of cider you are after. 

Here in Nottingham we grow our own Bittersharp & Bittersweet cider apples - but our most popular blends & therefore best sellers are those made with a variety of dessert & culinary fruit. We also use a lot of locally grown, usually donated Discovery but we always blend them with other dessert/culinary apples prior to fermentation. 

Do watch pH though. 

If you are going to Herefordshire anyway, picking up some bittersweets to experiment with would be interesting for you? 
As you have three containers, perhaps one pure Discovery, one a 1:3 bittersweet to Disco. & one a 1:2 bittersweet to Disco blend? 
Doing such would help you understand more about the process? 

Also I'd recommend racking when the fermentation appears to have virtually stopped - or go by hydrometer reading (better) - then after a week or two rack again & then bottle. 

As to bottling, you may find it easier to add the dry sugar to the bulk cider & stir in well before bottling. It makes the sparkle a bit more controllable & you can also experiment with the amount of sparkle. 

Like many, we find 5g / litre gives a good gentle & lasting sparkle. 
As always, think safety & avoiding bombs by choice of bottle versus amount of sugar added. 

Good luck.

Ray
Nottingham UK  

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[Dave Mitchell]

Well I am glad to see I am not the only one interested in carbonic macerated apples.  It is something I wanted to try this year, but it being my first year as a commercial cider maker I don't feel like I have the time and equipment to do it justice.  Though I feel like I am be missing out and spending a whole year thinking about 'what if'.  I come from brewing so the 'you only get one chance a year' thing is a bit daunting.  I will be certainly following Jeff's experiments.

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi Claude, 

I suggested we try the technique out for fun really, not expecting much. 

I’ll do my best to respond to your questions but I’m not at the orchard atm and my notes are there so I’m going from memory…. Here goes 

——————

1 You say you filled a 1000L vessel with apples - I gather these were whole apples and not milled?

Yes they were whole apples. 

2 This is a regular fermentation tank, I suppose hermetically closed with an air lock?

We used a 1000L variable capacity vat with an airlock. 

3 Then you added 75L of juice that you let ferment. It is then the CO2 produced by this fermentation that fills the vessel and chases the O2 out, so the apples are in a CO2 only environment.

Yes we added approx 75L of juice then closed it all off. Spontaneous fermentation. We did add some CO2 from a tank too through the entry/sortie at the bottom of the vat but given fluid/gas dynamics Id say there was a lot of mixing doing this. I would think that the majority of the CO2 came from the fermentation and when settled down this heavier CO2 pushed the O2 out the airlock.

4 Did that fermentation go to dryness or maybe it is not important.

Yes we let it go to dry

5 How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?

The juice was really tasty. We are currently selling the cider we made from this batch at the orchard and at 2 stores in Québec (La Place Boutique Gourmande and Monde des Bières sur Marie de l’incarnation).

6 I suppose you could also simply ferment water and sugar to produce the CO2... 

this is also an option, as it’s really the CO2 that you want/need. 

7 So once this is done, how do the apples look like? Are they still firm? Color change? You then simply mill and press them?

After a week they had started to show signs of wrinkling.

After two I noticed a little bit of browning under the skin on some apples but not many. 

After three they were old looking. I took a bite out of one and I must say eating a fizzy apple is quite a sensation. 

At four weeks they were softer to touch. I believe we pressed after 5 but I’ll have to check my notes. 

Did you take TA measurements from the same lot of apples with and without this maceration?

Unfortunately I didn’t take TA readings but going by taste alone there was a huge difference in perceived acidity. The macerated batch was much smoother than an example of  I fermented under the same conditions but that was made from the same apples that hadn’t been macerated. Apart from acidity the macerated batch was a lot, I repeat A LOT, fruitier than the unmacerated batch. How much of the reduction in TA is due to the technique or due to MLF I can’t say though. 

—————

So from our first test, I’d describe it as a light juice in terms of acidity and tannins, but the polyphenols are definitely at the party in big numbers. For the apple varieties available in N America that are a little light in tanins compared to European varieties I think it’s a technique that has lots of potential. I’ll definitely be doing it again and this time I’m gonna do a lot more too. 

For anyone wondering about doing it or worrying about messing it up I’d say go for it. It’s a really simple technique and gives fantastic results (from what I can report back on after our initial trial).

All the best, 

Cillian

Le Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec 

On Fri, Sep 3, 2021 at 17:18 Cillian Breathnach <cillian.b...@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi Claude, 

I suggested we try the technique out for fun really, not expecting much. 

I’ll do my best to respond to your questions but I’m not at the orchard atm and my notes are there so I’m going from memory…. Here goes 

——————

1 You say you filled a 1000L vessel with apples - I gather these were whole apples and not milled?

Yes they were whole apples. 

2 This is a regular fermentation tank, I suppose hermetically closed with an air lock?

We used a 1000L variable capacity vat with an airlock. 

3 Then you added 75L of juice that you let ferment. It is then the CO2 produced by this fermentation that fills the vessel and chases the O2 out, so the apples are in a CO2 only environment.

Yes we added approx 75L of juice then closed it all off. Spontaneous fermentation. We did add some CO2 from a tank too through the entry/sortie at the bottom of the vat but given fluid/gas dynamics Id say there was a lot of mixing doing this. I would think that the majority of the CO2 came from the fermentation and when settled down this heavier CO2 pushed the O2 out the airlock.

4 Did that fermentation go to dryness or maybe it is not important.

Yes we let it go to dry

5 How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?

The juice was really tasty. We are currently selling the cider we made from this batch at the orchard and at 2 stores in Québec (La Place Boutique Gourmande and Monde des Bières sur Marie de l’incarnation).

6 I suppose you could also simply ferment water and sugar to produce the CO2... 

this is also an option, as it’s really the CO2 that you want/need. 

7 So once this is done, how do the apples look like? Are they still firm? Color change? You then simply mill and press them?

After a week they had started to show signs of wrinkling.

After two I noticed a little bit of browning under the skin on some apples but not many. 

After three they were old looking. I took a bite out of one and I must say eating a fizzy apple is quite a sensation. 

At four weeks they were softer to touch. I believe we pressed after 5 but I’ll have to check my notes. 

Did you take TA measurements from the same lot of apples with and without this maceration?

Unfortunately I didn’t take TA readings but going by taste alone there was a huge difference in perceived acidity. The macerated batch was much smoother than an example of  I fermented under the same conditions but that was made from the same apples that hadn’t been macerated. Apart from acidity the macerated batch was a lot, I repeat A LOT, fruitier than the unmacerated batch. How much of the reduction in TA is due to the technique or due to MLF I can’t say though. 

—————

So from our first test, I’d describe it as a light juice in terms of acidity and tannins, but the polyphenols are definitely at the party in big numbers. For the apple varieties available in N America that are a little light in tanins compared to European varieties I think it’s a technique that has lots of potential. I’ll definitely be doing it again and this time I’m gonna do a lot more too. 

For anyone wondering about doing it or worrying about messing it up I’d say go for it. It’s a really simple technique and gives fantastic results (from what I can report back on after our initial trial).

All the best, 

Cillian

Le Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec 

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Cillian Breathnach.

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Cillian Breathnach]

Hi Claude, 

I suggested we try the technique out for fun really, not expecting much. 

I’ll do my best to respond to your questions but I’m not at the orchard atm and my notes are there so I’m going from memory…. Here goes 

——————

1 You say you filled a 1000L vessel with apples - I gather these were whole apples and not milled?

Yes they were whole apples. 

2 This is a regular fermentation tank, I suppose hermetically closed with an air lock?

We used a 1000L variable capacity vat with an airlock. 

3 Then you added 75L of juice that you let ferment. It is then the CO2 produced by this fermentation that fills the vessel and chases the O2 out, so the apples are in a CO2 only environment.

Yes we added approx 75L of juice then closed it all off. Spontaneous fermentation. We did add some CO2 from a tank too through the entry/sortie at the bottom of the vat but given fluid/gas dynamics Id say there was a lot of mixing doing this. I would think that the majority of the CO2 came from the fermentation and when settled down this heavier CO2 pushed the O2 out the airlock.

4 Did that fermentation go to dryness or maybe it is not important.

Yes we let it go to dry

5 How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?

The juice was really tasty. We are currently selling the cider we made from this batch at the orchard and at 2 stores in Québec (La Place Boutique Gourmande and Monde des Bières sur Marie de l’incarnation).

6 I suppose you could also simply ferment water and sugar to produce the CO2... 

this is also an option, as it’s really the CO2 that you want/need. 

7 So once this is done, how do the apples look like? Are they still firm? Color change? You then simply mill and press them?

After a week they had started to show signs of wrinkling.

After two I noticed a little bit of browning under the skin on some apples but not many. 

After three they were old looking. I took a bite out of one and I must say eating a fizzy apple is quite a sensation. 

At four weeks they were softer to touch. I believe we pressed after 5 but I’ll have to check my notes. 

Did you take TA measurements from the same lot of apples with and without this maceration?

Unfortunately I didn’t take TA readings but going by taste alone there was a huge difference in perceived acidity. The macerated batch was much smoother than an example of  I fermented under the same conditions but that was made from the same apples that hadn’t been macerated. Apart from acidity the macerated batch was a lot, I repeat A LOT, fruitier than the unmacerated batch. How much of the reduction in TA is due to the technique or due to MLF I can’t say though. 

—————

So from our first test, I’d describe it as a light juice in terms of acidity and tannins, but the polyphenols are definitely at the party in big numbers. For the apple varieties available in N America that are a little light in tanins compared to European varieties I think it’s a technique that has lots of potential. I’ll definitely be doing it again and this time I’m gonna do a lot more too. 

For anyone wondering about doing it or worrying about messing it up I’d say go for it. It’s a really simple technique and gives fantastic results (from what I can report back on after our initial trial).

All the best, 

Cillian

Le Verger à Ti-Paul, Québec 

On Thu, Sep 2, 2021 at 18:33 Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Jeffrey Lewis]

Cillian,

Really cool test, and thanks for the detailed description.  I’ll have a go at this method this year.

The only question I have left is:  after maceration, did you press the apples whole or did you scratt them?

/J

Skickat från min iPhone

3 sep. 2021 kl. 23:49 skrev Cillian Breathnach <cillian.b...@gmail.com>:



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[Cillian Breathnach]

No problem :) we milled them. Shoveled them out of the vat straight into the miller, then the bladder press and into another vat. Once ready we bottle carbed. 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Thank you Cillian.

I will definitely give it a try - although on a smaller scale...

Just one thing - when I wrote

"How was the juice that fermented like? Usable for cider?"

I meant here the 75L that had been fermented to produce the CO2. Did you mix this with the juice you pressed from the macerated apples? Or did you use it in some other way?

[Cillian Breathnach]

Ah ok, yeah à certain amount of the initial 75L juice would have been added with the apples when we shoveled them out of the original vat, though not all of it. A lot of apples at the bottom had split under the weight of the ones on top of them too (forgot to mention that) 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Courtney Meier]

Based on the interesting discussion and results presented so far, I thought I would experiment with carbonic maceration and some Dolgo-type crabapples that grow abundantly around Boulder where I live. My youngest son and I collected about 3 bushels from some local trees on 2021-09-12, and I then did the following:

1. Put 50% of the apples into two 30 L buckets; buckets were both full. The other 50% I pressed for a wild ferment: Initial juice SG was 1.094; initial juice TA was 26.5 g/L MAE; pH was 2.8 units.
   
2. I then poured 1 L Kirkland pasteurised apple juice into each bucket (2 L total juice added to apples in buckets).
3. Activated a partial packet of Lalvin D47 in 1 L Kirkland juice, let sit at room temp until foamy (2-3 h). Not sure why, but I didn't measure and record how much yeast mass I used. From this active yeast suspension, I then added 500 mL to each bucket and sealed the lids. Basement temperature was 18-21 ˚C.
4. Airlocks on the buckets began bubbling within several hours, indicating a CO2-rich environment built up pretty quickly.
5. On 2021-09-20, I checked the buckets and discovered that the crabapples had lost all their structure and had turned to mush, releasing quite a bit of their juice in the process. A good deal more of the juice had begun to ferment than I had anticipated.
6. Because the juice that came from the crabapples now covered about 50% of the apples in each bucket, I decided to pass everything in the buckets through the rack and cloth press. Apples did not need grinding - I loaded them directly into the press. After pressing,  I found that: SG was 1.071; juice TA was 23.7 g/L MAE; pH was 2.9 units. I added Pectic Enzyme per manufacturer instructions, sealed the lid, and let sit overnight.
7. I racked today (2021-09-21) because the fermentation was going very quickly - much faster than desired. I didn't measure the FSU but bubbles through the airlock were one right after the other. I'll rack again tomorrow and measure the SG. With only a modest reduction in acid, I am now hoping I can slow the fermentation down so that I can retain some sugar to balance the exceptional acid. If that doesn't work, I will have to use this juice as a small portion of a blend that needs acid.

The results I got were not that impressive in terms of acid reduction, which was a little disappointing. In addition, I now have a fermentation going much faster than its wild-fermenting counterpart, which I am not that happy about. I had thought to use the commercial yeast as a way of generating CO2 rapidly, but now I wonder whether it would have been better to just rely on wild yeast like Cillian did for her trial. One reason I didn't use wild yeast, though, was that these crabapples seem to not keep very well (they started rotting within 8-10 days of collection last time I got them), and I didn't want them to rot while waiting for the CO2 to build up to sufficient quantities. It would be worth experimenting to find out, perhaps.

I'm interested to hear results from others who may have tried this approach out, and exactly how you conducted your trial!

Cheers,

Courtney

---------------------
Courtney Meier | Plant Ecologist | Cider Hobbyist | Boulder, CO

[Johan Strömberg]

Thanks Courtney,

I just started the same trial with various crab apples (one being dolgo) in last weekend but with wild yeasts and lower temps so I can report in a couple of weeks if results differs. In grapes semi-carbonic maceration will take two to three weeks to complete and I wonder if 8 days is enough to lower the TA? Did you taste whole apples before pressing? Did they have any signs of fermentation?

-Johan

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[Cillian Breathnach]

Fantastic resumé of the process Courtney 👍 Thanks for sharing. 

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Cillian Breathnach.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 22 septembre 2021 à 00:46:00 UTC-4, Courtney Meier a écrit :

Based on the interesting discussion and results presented so far, I thought I would experiment with carbonic maceration

Same for me...

I had 16 kg of apples from a natural/wild seedling tree that tasted fairly acidic from eating a sample apple.

I filled a 30L pail with 12.5 kg of apples and pressed the rest of the apples on the 13th of September.

The juice obtained was at SG 1.046 and TA 6.3 as malic - not as acidic as anticipated from tasting an apple, but I think the low SG contributed to this perception. I had a thought I should get more acidic apples to conduct this test, but as everything was ready I decided to go ahead anyway.

I took 2.4L from the pressed juice, inoculated it with yeast and introduced it in the pail.

Difference with Courtney is that I still haven't opened the lid to have a look, as I think this would let the CO2 escape and we don't want that. I intend to leave it alone for at least another couple of weeks.

Stay tuned...

[Zacharias Erså]

Carbonic maceration of grapes is usually done at 30-35 C, perhaps Courtney’s experiment ran a little short and cold?

I’m also running a little experiment this year, but only on the amount of apples I could fit in a standard keg. Initial TA of 9 and 13.5 Brix. Purged the keg 5 times and left it at 27 C. Will report after a couple of weeks. 

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//Z

[Courtney Meier]

@johan - Yes, I suspect that the temperature was too low and the duration too short for my trial. I ended up checking on them early because I was concerned the Dolgos might completely break down and I would therefore just end up fermenting the apples whole along with all the juice that was released, which is pretty much what seems to have happened. When I scooped them out of the buckets they were complete mush, and the SG of the juice I pressed was 0.025 points lower than the initial juice.

@claude - like you, I worried that checking would release CO2, and if I had continued the trial I thought I might have released too much. However, the airlock was still bubbling before I opened the lid, so figured since CO2 is denser than air and it was still actively being produced there was not much risk had I chosen to carefully reseal the bucket after a quick look. I've never successfully done this before though (obviously) so perhaps that thought process doesn't make sense. I can say that when I carefully opened the lid and sniffed the contents the CO2 layer over the apples was noticeable to the nose.

Looking forward to seeing other people's results! Maybe this process works better with apples that do not lose all of their structure so easily and so quickly, as the Dolgos did in my hands.

[Zacharias Erså]

So results for my (tiny) experiment are in!

METHOD

A standard 19 L keg was filled with apples of a local Swedish variety (se stats below). Apples without bruises or similar damage were selected. The keg was purged 5 times, pressurized to 0.5 bar and left at around 27 C for 13 days. Apples were pressed in a standard basket press and data collected. 

RESULTS

The red pigment of the apple skins was clearly faded and had permeated the flesh. The apples themselves had softened considerably. The apples had a strong sort of generic fruit aroma. Half a liter of juice had collected at the bottom of the keg. 

Initial stats

- OG: 1.057

- pH: 3.2

- TA: 8 g/L malic

After carbonic maceration

- OG: 1,050

- pH: 3.4

- TA: 5 g/L malic

Press yield was average - around 60%

THOUGHTS

Fun experiment, but obviously not a feasible method for processing apples on a large scale. Carbonic maceration of grapes usually terminates at around 2% ABV, the SG change in my experiment corresponds to roughly half that. I’m don’t know how much ethanol a 3 g/L reduction of malic acid would yield, but I suspect I’m still a bit off. I could probably have left the a bit longer. Overall a fun experiment, eating a carbonated apple is an interesting experience! 

Any suggestions for the pressed juice? 50 ppm sulfite and a wild 10 c ferment?

Have a great Sunday!

Z

 

On Wed, 22 Sep 2021 at 17:15, Courtney Meier <cmei...@gmail.com> wrote:

@johan - Yes, I suspect that the temperat was too low and the duration too short for my trial. I ended up checking on them early because I was concerned the Dolgos might completely break down and I would therefore just end up fermenting the apples whole along with all the juice that was released, which is pretty much what seems to have happened. When I scooped them out of the buckets they were complete mush, and the SG of the juice I pressed was 0.025 points lower than the initial juice.

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//Z

[Bartek Knapek]

I wonder - why is it called "maceration"? Woudn't "carbonic sweatening" be more accurate?
Maceration involves soaking, and in the cider making it refers to storing crushed apples for a period of time.

I have done a small trial as well.
A mix of Antonovka, Eliza, McIntosh, Jonagold, Sisi Red and some early Reinette.

1. crushed and pressed immediately -> SG 1.044, TA 8,7 malic

2. two weeks in CO2 @20C -> SG 1.044, TA 6

3. two weeks in CO2 @35C -> SG 1.040, TA 4, ~0,6%vol (ebulliometer)

4. two weeks in air atm. @35C -> SG 1.046, TA 2.3

In #4 apples became overripe (but did not rot, to my surprise), while in #3 they started to ferment slightly inside:

Apples answered to treatments very differently - Antonovkas (middle) changed the most, while Reinettes looked rather ambivalent (but went down in acidity as well, to taste).

In #2 apples did not show much change, but surprisingly here some started to rot:

Now the next questions is: how these teratments will influence other properties of ciders. Just started to ferment...

//Bartek

[Johan Strömberg]

I just finished my semi-carbo test ; spontan fermentation for fresh pressed juice in 10 - 15c for about 10% of vessel (30l/each) total volume and the rest was filled with acidic & tannic crab apples mainly with local finnish varietal called "kadetti". Total fermentation/maceration time was three weeks. I did not take titrated ta-levels but sensoric acidity is now significantly milder/lower and apples & juice are still very tasty. I did also use a couple of ”softer” varietals and they started to break just as Courtney mentioned but ”Kadetti” is hard late season crab apple and it was quite a perfect candidate for this test plus there was no problem of milling it either (in third picture very last kadetti apples of vessel still in very good form). The biggest surprise was bright red colored juice which taste awesome! I would say this was succesfull test and I'll probably process all my overly acidic crab apples with this method in next year. Thanks!

1. Fresh loaded vessel 

2. After three weeks

3. ”Kadetti” after three weeks

4. Juice

Johan

Bartek Knapek <cy...@knapek.pl> kirjoitti 26.09.2021 kello 10.20:



I wonder - why is it called "maceration"? Woudn't "carbonic sweatening" be more accurate?
Maceration involves soaking, and in the cider making it refers to storing crushed apples for a period of time.

I have done a small trial as well.
A mix of Antonovka, Eliza, McIntosh, Jonagold, Sisi Red and some early Reinette.

1. crushed and pressed immediately -> SG 1.044, TA 8,7 malic

2. two weeks in CO2 @20C -> SG 1.044, TA 6

3. two weeks in CO2 @35C -> SG 1.040, TA 4, ~0,6%vol (ebulliometer)

4. two weeks in air atm. @35C -> SG 1.046, TA 2.3

In #4 apples became overripe (but did not rot, to my surprise), while in #3 they started to ferment slightly inside:

<lccbinijnanhokjl.png>

Apples answered to treatments very differently - Antonovkas (middle) changed the most, while Reinettes looked rather ambivalent (but went down in acidity as well, to taste).

In #2 apples did not show much change, but surprisingly here some started to rot:

<jhomllcoijpckeem.png>

Now the next questions is: how these teratments will influence other properties of ciders. Just started to ferment...

//Bartek

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[Eric Tyira]

Nice!

10-15c is not very warm at all, so perhaps higher temperatures are not needed?

For Andrew or the other chemists, what is the mechanism that is dropping the acid levels?  Is it the CO2 rich environment?  Or that the skins are on?  But neither of these would by itself lower the TA levels. 

Thoughts?

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[Andrew Lea]

It’s all explained (at least for grapes) here https://www.awri.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/s2005.pdf. Under anaerobic conditions the normal malate respiration is replaced by other pathways. So yes it’s all down to the high CO2 levels. 

However, all the published work I know of is on grapes. Malic is a minor acid in grapes, but the major one in most apples.  Apples may behave differently from grapes - we just don’t yet have the data to know. We do know though from controlled atmosphere storage work that not all apple cultivars behave the same way wrt malate metabolism. So I would guess that varietal factors might play a big role.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Follow-up of my previous report...

I previously wrote:

I had 16 kg of apples from a natural/wild seedling tree that tasted fairly acidic from eating a sample apple.

I filled a 30L pail with 12.5 kg of apples and pressed the rest of the apples on the 13th of September.

The juice obtained was at SG 1.046 and TA 6.3 as malic - not as acidic as anticipated from tasting an apple, but I think the low SG contributed to this perception. I had a thought I should get more acidic apples to conduct this test, but as everything was ready I decided to go ahead anyway.

I took 2.4L from the pressed juice, inoculated it with yeast and introduced it in the pail.

 

That first part above was done on September 13. I finally opened the lid on October 7, which makes 24 days of maceration at an average temperature of 19C.

These were apples averaging 50mm across. They had completely transformed, a bit in the same way as frozen-and-thawed apples. The skin has become beige-brownish, and the apples lost their firmness and were quite soft. They looked sound however, no rot.

I took the apples out of the pail, and checked the liquid which had become cider - SG 1.003, and TA unchanged at 6.3 g/L. I filtered and put this cider aside in the fridg.

I rinsed the apples and the pail with clean water to wash off the cider odor, and put the apples back in the pail overnight with some sulfite solution. The weight of the apples unchanged at 12.5 kg.

Next morning I pressed the apples. Since they were soft I decided there was no need to mill them, so I simply pressed them whole (as I do for frozen-thawed apples). All went well and I got 8.5L of juice from 12.5 kg of apples, for a yield of 70%. Juice properties  SG 1.042, and TA 5.6 g/L.

- The SG decreased from 1.046 to 1.042 during the maceration. I suspect this means some fermentation occured inside the apples during the process.

- The TA decreased from 6.3 to 5.6 g/L. This is a mere 11% reduction in acidity - and this is a deception.

Actually, I wonder if I would have had the same acidity reduction by simply letting the apples in storage during the same period...

Next, I will ferment this juice with the cider that I have put aside in the fridg, and assembled with some Lobo apples. We'll see in a few months if this makes a palatable cider.

What I learned... The acidity reduction with normal size medium-sharp apples is not worth the trouble of doing this... If I try again, it will be with small and very acidic crabs - in that case it may be useful.

[jeff.k...@gmail.com]

Hi everyone,

I thought I would give an update on my carbonic maceration results from this year.  I worked with crabs only, initial SG of 54 and TA of 23.  Yeah, they are pretty sour!

Method:

50 kg crabs placed in a 100 liter plastic fermenter and saturated with CO2.  I gave an extra shot of CO2 once a week to counteract any diffusion losses.  I had the whole thing outside, so the temperature varied.  Approximately 5-15 C.  I left it for a month.  

Results:  After a month, SG was 51 and TA was 14.  Crabs were still whole although they were all brown.  

If you have a look at the results I reported from 2017 at the top of this thread, TA from very similar crabs (I think they were actually from the same tree) dropped to 8 when I heated the whole thing up in a sauna for three days.  So I think the heat is an important factor, although the ambient method this year is a lot more convenient.

/Jeff

[Love Lindholm]

Very nice experiment Z!

Could you please tell what variety those apples were? I also use Swedish apples :-)

Also, was the pressure in the keg actually 0.5 bar, i.e., half of normal atmospheric pressure? Or does 0.5 bar here indicate 0.5 bar above atmospheric pressure, so that the pressure inside the keg was 1.5 bar?

Best
Love