Cider taste - is it normal a to have a rotten "touch"

[Mykolas]

Dear All,

I'd like to discuss the matter which on my mind hangs for couple of years already.

I’ve seen videos on YouTube about making cider in Somerset and other UK places, how apples lays on the ground till first frost is coming, etc. and after all, all apples are picked, washed and pressed. I mean – ALL, red, green, small, big and in the same way rotten too. As Andrew pointed in his book, that rotten apples have substances which are not very good to our health. But all superior cider farms seems to not worrying about it. Also, I have tasted some mainstream ciders and some organic ones from UK and I noticed that they have this bit of rottenness in taste. My cider does not have this taste, because I pick out all or partly rotten apples. But in the same way, I miss this taste in my cider what I really like to have. 

Could someone clear my thought about it.

Mykolas,

Kaunas, LT

[Nick Bradstock]

Well, Mykolas, – that’s ‘real cider’ for you.

 

(and real British humour as well – no offence to you at all!)

Nick

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[Andrew Lea]

On 11/07/2013 15:05, Mykolas wrote:


> Also, I have tasted some mainstream ciders and some organic ones
> from UK and I noticed that they have this bit of rottenness in taste.

I would challenge that statement. I don't think any mainstream UK ciders
taste 'rotten'. I think it more likely that you are unfamiliar with the
flavour of bittersweet cider after malo-lactic fermentation. This is the
often-described spicy /phenolic / old horse aroma, which is regarded as
desirable in good quality UK ciders. People with a New World wine
background, who are unfamiliar with it, sometimes describe is as
'Bretty'. It is associated with English and French cider apples, and
does not seem to occur in ciders made from dessert apples.

It has nothing to do with rotten fruit. I think that very very few
cidermakers in the UK would willingly or deliberately use rotten fruit.

Andrew



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Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Nat West]

But this (brief) discussion so far fails to define "rotten". That should be a prerequisite to discussion, no?

When we are sorting fruit on its way to the grinder, we keep the question in our heads: "Would you bother eating around that blemish?" If you'd rather just discard the whole apple, then that's what you should do. If there is some bruising or a rotten corner, and you would eat around it, then that apple goes into the grinder. But no mold is allowed, ever.

-Nat West, Portland Oregon

[Andrew Lea]

I'm with you Nat. Bruised fruit, or bletted fruit suffering physiological breakdown, isn't rotten. To me, rotten fruit has obvious pathological mould growth or indications eg from its aroma that mould has taken hold. 

Without wanting to get too technical (though i find it difficult not to in this context), the obvious mould aroma metabolites are components like geosmin or methyl Iso borneol which have earthy or beetroot like aromas. They are fairly distinctive (and very different from 'old horse'). 

Of course in a large operation a few mouldy fruits inevitably get through.  But rarely if ever are they sufficient to taint the cider. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[Nat West]

Well Andrew, you brought it up, so I have to continue the minorly technical discussion.

What is the relationship between apple bletting and patulin? My reading indicates that patulin is destroyed or made harmless via fermentation, but I have also heard from others that this isn't the case, or that there is some high threshold of patulin beyond which fermentation won't make it safe.

Is there a way to differentiate between cleanly bletting fruit (like is done with medlars) and patulin-containing bletting fruit which should be avoided?

[Andrew Lea]

The way I see it, bletting is physiological breakdown not pathological. Patulin is a mould metabolite from eg Penicillium or Aspergillus which are fungal pathogens. Hence bletting does not generate patulin since no fungi are involved. 

I would just note that I have never knowingly seen bletting in dessert apples, but often in cider apples lying on the ground. 

The conversion of patulin to escladiol during fermentation was covered by Moss and Long some years ago. The work was sponsored by NACM but is in the public domain. I am not aware of any data to contradict that work but would be glad to know of any. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

[james]

So if I store ciders in a tump could I hope for some bletting and how long in a tump should they ideally stored or am I getting confused

[james]

Sorry to add what signs would I see if bletting has started or has taken place

[Bret Hampton]

On Friday, 12 July 2013 07:47:26 UTC+12, Andrew Lea wrote:

... the obvious mould aroma metabolites are components like geosmin or methyl Iso borneol which have earthy or beetroot like aromas. They are fairly distinctive (and very different from 'old horse'). 

First (and slightly off topic), that's why I don't like beetroots, if they smell like mould, probably shouldn't eat them.  

Back to topic... I've only made a few batches of cider, so have no where the experience of the others on here.  I've tasted the bittersweet, and it's usually from French or English ciders, there has been the odd NZ one that has bittersweet flavouring in it, but usually it's just sweet (from good sweet, to horribly 'did I just drink sugar water?' sweet).  My own cider making has produced mostly sweetish ciders, nothing horribly sweet, but nothing with the bittersweet flavours, mainly due to the apples I'm using, since it's a little hard to source cider varieties near where I am. 

 I'd second that the main culprit is just the varieties of apples he's using, rather than any lack of using "rotten" fruit (and, perhaps the rotten is lost in translation, and he's not referring to mouldy fruit, but rather bruised or blemished fruit?).  

Bret

[greg l.]

Saying that rotten apples produce rotten flavours is like saying that sweet apples will produce sweet cider. Rotten fruit contains enzymes like laccase which lead to enzymatic oxidation. The result is a loss of flavour and colour. I sometimes get rotten fruit because of a local pest, queensland fruit fly. The resulting cider is not great but certainly doesn't taste rotten. 

Greg

[Andrew Lea]

A bletted apple is brown (even black) externally and uniformly brown internally. The skin is intact but the flesh has a soft mealy texture. This is due to enzymic breakdown of pectin and polyphenols.

I don't think bletting should be an objective in cider apple storage, because once they get to that stage they are obviously very vulnerable to fungal infection. So I wouldn't store apples in a tump with that in mind. I don't see any advantage to bletting. All I'm saying is that if some apples do become bletted it isn't a disaster and it doesn't in itself constitute 'rot'.

Bletting is not to be confused with the normal post harvest storage of intact apples to allow starch to turn to sugar which is recommended practice for most mid to late season cider apples.

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

On 11 Jul 2013, at 22:24, james <blackd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Sorry to add what signs would I see if bletting has started or has taken place
>

[Andrew Lea]

On 11/07/2013 22:42, Andrew Lea wrote:
> A bletted apple is brown (even black) externally and uniformly brown internally.

Thinking about this further, I suspect bletting is something restricted
to high tannin (bittersweet or bittersharp apples) lying on a grassy
orchard floor for some time maybe with cold (ground frost) as a
stimulating factor to initiate the breakdown. Hence many people on this
list will never encounter such a phenomenon. My guess is that the tannin
inhibits the germination and growth of mould for a while which is why
the fruit remains unrotted although it is broken down internally by its
own enzymes. The only fruit I'm aware of which is deliberately bletted
before consumption is the medlar which again is quite high in tannin.

One additional reason why you would not want too many bletted apples in
cidermaking is that I think they would be difficult to mill and press
because the integrity of the fruit cell structure has been lost. They
are a curiosity which happens from time to time, not something to be
sought after.

[Nat West]

On Thu, Jul 11, 2013 at 3:30 PM, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

Thinking about this further, I suspect bletting is something restricted to high tannin (bittersweet or bittersharp apples) lying on a grassy orchard floor for some time maybe with cold (ground frost) as a stimulating factor to initiate the breakdown.

This is exactly when I've seen it. I harvest bitters nearly exclusively off the ground and late season, on grass, both windfalls and shaken. There is a different look and feel to bletted apples as opposed to dessert apples that turn into slime. I won't get a slimed dessert apple near my mouth but have considered eating a bletted bitter apple.