Water sprouts for grafting

[Nathan Shackelford]

I have been sharing some scion wood lately and have noticed that water sprouts have been the most hearty one year growth. They are thicker and straighter than any other single year growth on the tree. I think I've received this type of scionwood from other orchardists, but, I wasn't sure.

Can anyone tell me whether 1 year growth from water sprouts or from fruit bearing branches has any difference in it's potential for grafting?

[AW]

I always get the best results from water sprouts, but I don't know if they are inherently better or worse for grafting.

They are almost always the most vigorous/longest/straightest growth, especially on old trees.  I almost never get comparable wood from laterals....so I can't compare directly.

I wonder if one type of wood or another is more likely to sport.     

[Dougal]

Water sprouts are ideal for scions.

[Michael Shepard]

Would that be true for top working as well? Seems like their upright nature would be a bit problematic.
Mike Shepard
Vermont

[David Llewellyn]

Their growth habit will just be exactly as is typical for the variety, so
nothing to worry about.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie

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[Dougal]

They are fine for top working; ideal, even.  I regularly allow sprouts to grow so they can be harvested for grafting.  By winter they can be 700 to 1400mm long and produce 4-6 scions each!

 

When rind grafting, big is beautiful.  Pencil thickness (8mm) to 15mm will work really well.  Just keep them from drying out before grafting and after grafting.

 

This year I did a lot of cleft grafting of 4 year old trees.  I used scions ranging from 4mm to 10mm.  The larger diameter scions performed much better than the smaller.  Also, many of the larger scions came from water sprouts whereas the smaller ones came from 1 year old branch tips.  I had many more losses from the branch tips (grafting 2 scions to a cleft, I had only a couple of trees where both failed.  I will allow a rootstock shoot to grow out and then saddle graft that next year).

 

I also saddle grafted an 18mm Dabinett scion successfully.  More impressive, I harvested the scion when it had 50mm new shoots on it!!!  Yes, I know, it was very late but I had 100% success on that and 7 other scions harvested after bud burst.

[Mike Shepard]

Thanks for the info. I'm new to grafting and have many hundreds of established wild trees I'm trying to bring into production. There's a lot of work ahead! Thanks again. 

Mike

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[Dougal]

How old are the trees you are top-working?  Or more specifically, what diameter are the trunks?   What height from the ground are the lowest branches?

[Mike Shepard]

The trees are all ages, seedlings from my pomace piles all the way up to 60 or more years old. So teeny tiny up to 40 or 50 cm in diameter. In the areas I have been thinning and pruning most branches start about 1 m from the ground. Untouched areas are sometimes impenetrable. Lots of work but such sweet rewards! 

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[Dougal]

So many questions and comments ...

 

The first is probably, have you tried the apples off them all yet?  It would be a shame to top work over a tree with fantastic apples.  And you need to keep your mind open; they might not make decent cider but one of your wildings might be the next Braeburn or Jazz, and take the eating world by storm.

 

Next, it is probably not worth top-working anything older than 25 years.  You want some life off your grafted cultivars and it will be limited on old rootstock.  I'm not saying cut out any old trees but it might be best to just let them bear their own fruit until they slow right down.  Maybe think of some rejuvenating pruning.

 

Are your trees laid out in a manner that will be efficient to manage?  I cannot imagine that managing a haphazardly-planted orchard will be fun.

 

You will get great returns on the scions top-worked onto 10-25 year trees.  They have big motors and those scions will get up and bearing the next year.  However, be aware that those big engines have the power to blow out your scions.  Cut your rootstock to keep a bleeder or two - the lowest branches - to use up some of that sap flow in Spring and take the pressure off your scions.  In fact, you can leave a complete lower scaffold and graft scions onto a couple of branches and leave the other two 'au natural' to use the sap flow.  Once the grafts are in strong, the next year you can graft the remaining bleeders to give you a complete tree of the new cultivar.  Use at lease two scions in each trunk / limb.  I know that uses a lot more of your precious scions but there is a greater chance of success.  Extra scions that take can be used for harvesting scions to graft the next season.

 

Younger trees selected as rootstock will be easy to graft too, though you might choose cleft grafting if the trunk is less than 60mm in diameter.  They will soon get up too.  Try a saddle / whip and tongue graft for any seedling rootstocks.

[Mike Shepard]

Thanks again. I have been sampling them and am using the best for scion stock, including one good eater and a couple good cookers but mostly cider varieties. Looking into making some brandy with some of my 2016 vintage. 

As I've been looking into grafting I'm becoming aware that the older trees aren't great candidates to be top worked. With that in mind I have been getting great results from aggressive pruning of those older trees. The 'sap drawer' is something I have been working toward. I have 'the grafters handbook' as a guide but had limited success last year, my first year grafting, pretty sure I was too early. We had a very late spring here and the grafts I made later in the season had a much higher rate of take.

As I said I have some seedlings but am not sure on when to graft them. I put a few in the garden and they seem like they might be big enough now but most still seem too small, I have a hard time finding scion stock that small in diameter and just don't have enough knowledge or experience yet. Any thoughts on good resources? Really appreciate your input. Thanks again. 

Mike

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On Jan 7, 2016, at 19:01, Dougal <baile...@xtra.co.nz> wrote:

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[Dougal]

If I am reading you correctly, you have planted seedlings as rootstock and wish to graft on scions?

 

If so, no problem.  Just remember that only one side of the scion has to line up with the rootstock to take.  As there is an overhang on the opposite side from the scion having a larger diameter, I just shave off that opposite side of the scion a little to match the width of the rootstock.  This serves no purpose other than to ensure that pressure from the grafting tape does not centre the scion, meaning neither side has a cambium match.  So line up one side, shave the scion to fit and bind securely.  You'll be fine.  Give any rootstock over 8mm a crack and leave anything under 8mm a year to fill out.

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Hi Nathan, dont use water sprouts! Most apple cultivars load up their water sprouts with auxins that while the water sprouts graft or take well, the resulting tree often has delayed fruiting, and or stunted weak growth. The resultig problem can sometimes be permenant.

Best regards
Chris Rylands

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Your best choice will be using scions that are moderately vigorous takwn from toward the top of the tree.These scions will be adequately hardened and the leaf buds will have fully stored all of the the right chemicals, compounds, and DNA for correct maturation and health. Water sprouts have formed so quickly that they can be still too tender and become easily subject to pathogens. Their buds can be deficiant in the key compounds so when it is time to heal the graft union, the buds claim dominancy of healing compounds instead of allowing the graft union heal with a the full palette of chemicals. This can cause the graft unions to permently be brittle. The half-hearted healing of the graft union, especially on Bud 9s and a few other dwarfing rootstock makes snaping-off in storms, snow loads, or heavy fruit loads even more likely.

[Nathan Shackelford]

Interesting information, Chris. Thank you. I'll try to stick with the normal growth when possible.

I'm wondering if regular pruning helps trees continue to produce nice amounts of one year growth?
I've noticed that established trees with little pruning aren't putting out that much yearly growth, sometimes only a few inches, which makes cutting scions a bit more challenging.

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Many apple cultivars when reaching a certain age and where they approach a full volume of wood that makes the scion/rootstock equilibrium balanced will almost stop putting out lots of new growth and build spur density instead. So to keep wood replacement going the general rule is cut about 25% of volume out every year to stimulate new replacement healthy wood.(Cut any cankers out :-)). Typically if you want the 25% pruning to stimulate more new wood next spring, then prune in winter when all nutrients have migrated down into the roots. Then in spring and summer there is a disproportionate amount of nutrients in the roots that will force top growth. If you are trying to scale your trees back and dont want lots of summer growth and suckerd or water sprouts, then prune in late summer to limit the amount of nutrients that will return to the roots for next years growth.

Some cultivars are very leggy and easily put out lost of blind wood, with just a bud every two inched or so. Scions are easy to keep going on these trees. In contrast, other cultivars, like many of the French types are slow at producing scionwood, and the bud density is terribly compressed making grafting very intricate and time consuming with poor take ratios.

Pruning is your steering wheel that controls where your orchard is going.

Best regards
Chris Rylands

[Nathan Shackelford]

Thanks for your explanation! I am rehabilitating a mature orchard that hasn't been pruned in many years, and most of it is corrective till the trees are opened up for light and air. However, I'm also starting to think about the leggy ones, and how they had broken branches with a heavy fruit load last season. It's amazing how the different cultivars have VERY different growth habits. Some trees need very little direction, and others are so vigorous and inward growing that it will take several season to get them straightened out.

[Cider Supply, LLC]

Oh yea you have some work cut out for ya, forgive the pun.

On some of the trees with lopsided growth, you can also cut a 1/4" slot through the cambium 1/2 way around the circumference of the branch to limit branch growth for a season and to enduce other smaller branches to thicken up elsewhere on the tree to balance out the overall tree structure. The slots only are as deep as the bark and should be sealed as normal. The branches will heal and repair themselves nicely and resume branch operation within a year or so.