Removal of sediment

[Alexander Peckham]

Me again. I hope nobody objects to me opening two threads
consecutively.

When I press and leave the juice overnight, a fair amount of sediment
drops out as expected. I tend to rack the juice off this sediment
prior to ferment - I didn't used to, but winemaker friends persuaded
me that the sediment might become a source of off flavours and result
in H2S issues. This advice relates to white wine making practice and
I do wonder whether I am discarding a source of flavour as well as
introducing another step in the cidermaking process.

I would be interested to know what common practice is among forum
members. Many thanks Alex

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Alexander wrote:
> When I press and leave the juice overnight, a fair amount of sediment
> drops out as expected.   I tend to rack the juice off this sediment
> prior to ferment - I didn't used to, but winemaker friends persuaded
> me that the sediment might become a source of off flavours and result
> in H2S issues.  This advice relates to white wine making practice and
> I do wonder whether I am discarding a source of flavour as well as
> introducing another step in the cidermaking process.

Interesting question!
I don't usually bother to separate the juice from the sediment at this
stage because I assume it will go at first racking anyway.
... Unless I do a real "débourbage" which consists in adding pectinase
to the juice, keeping it at high enough temperature for the pectinase
to work (15C is usually fine), and after a few days when the juice has
cleared, it may be racked.
By the way, anyone would have an English word for "Débourbage"?

Claude

[Richard Reeves]

In the winery environment the crushing and/or destemming operations can produce a high percentage of solids, especially with soft-skinned varieties. I have seen tanks of Sauvignon Blanc with 15% solids after crushing and prior to a long (several days) settling time, and then still be at 7 or 8 percent. It's a big loss of raw product and is usually D.E. filtered for recovery which is no friend to the quality. That juice frequently end it's life in a house wine or something with a generic origin of appellation.

I fully assumed I would rack off solids when I started making Cider but was pleasantly surprised at the low volume of solids developed during the processing, for me about 1 to 2 percent, and so have fermented on these lees and racked post-primary, to no apparent ill effects so far.  (Grape) Solids can be a significant source of nutrients for the yeast, assuming one doesn't otherwise supplement with DAP etc, and so the Cider might possibly finish cleaner and quicker with solids retention. As to "discarding a source of flavor", I have tasted white wines fermented on very large quantities of solids on more than one occasion (don't ask) and all were rather less pleasant or more funky than what one might expect. I suppose the rule of "all things in moderation" might apply.

Richard Reeves   Lake county, California

[Michael Zercher]

This topic came up in one of the workshops at CiderCon last week. The advice from the Scott Labs representative was in line with Richard's comment below: the sediment is a great source of yeast nutrients which are often more scarce than in grapes. 

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[Rich Anderson]

I have pondered over removing sediment for a long time since this appears to happen when you  keeve , not sure of the French word but I think the translation roughly “defecation” when the solids separate. According to Ted Burning’s recent book it appears that the much admired 18^th century “manor ciders” were made using repeated rackings before and during fermentation.  For a 21th century solution I have thought about using a combination of pectinase, gelatin and colloidal silica to clear the juice prior to fermentation as is done with white wine must. This would essentially be a pre-fermentation fining.   Being lazy I have never pursued it, but I wish some would or at least discuss.

[Dries Muylaert]

In Dutch (Flemish) we call it "voorklaring". Perhaps in English preclearing. Might work. As opposed to the the final clearing after fermentation. Fun. Btw, Claude, couldn't find any subject in this blog on ice cider. Wouldn't you start one? Enjoyed your youtube lesson on the subject.

2013/2/11 Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com>

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Dries Muylaert wrote:
> In Dutch (Flemish) we call it "voorklaring". Perhaps in English
> preclearing. Might work. As opposed to the the final clearing after
> fermentation. Fun. Btw, Claude, couldn't find any subject in this blog on
> ice cider. Wouldn't you start one? Enjoyed your youtube lesson on the
> subject.

Dries, I can see that "voorklaring" would mean clearing of the must...
Actually, we call this a pre-fermentation clarification. However there
are 2 types of pre-fermentation clarifications we can do with pectic
enzymes:

One is keeving where we use only the PME pectic enzyme plus calcium to
transform the pectin into a gel, which is followed by the rise of the
brown cap. This one is called "défécation" in French.

The other is the "débourbage" I was refering to earlier. In this case,
we use a complete pectinase to degrade completely the pectin and
transform it in soluble galacturonic acids. The must then clears and
we can rack it to start the fermentation with a clean must. This
process will not have the same effect on yeast population and
nutrients like the keeving however.

Claude

[Dries Muylaert]

Exactly. Débourbage is voorklaring. Removing the solids in suspension, les bourbes. Pectoenzymes are functional for that as they by solidifying the pectin lessen the viscosity of the most, allowing the most to clear by gravity. But you know that.

For keeving we use a word that comes from the brewery process, we are after all Flemish: "bovenklaring" or "bovenbreding" (cleaning the brew on top, "breding" from bereiden, "make good, make ready for consumption".) "Onderklaring" or "onderbreding" than means cleaning the brew by gravity, at the bottom of the barrel.

2013/2/13 Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com>

Claude

[Alexander Peckham]

Very interesting responses. I was thinking solids that made it
through the press as opposed to pectins in the juice. Rich's point
relating to the way cider was made is high on my mind. I have read
Ted Burning's book and was fascinated that the best cider used to
involve multiple rackings. This seems quite different from the
current consensus which seems to be rack near the end of ferment -
indeed many on this forum seem to leave the cider on gross lees for
quite a while before raking.

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/02/2013 08:24, Alexander Peckham wrote:
>
> Ted Burning's book and was fascinated that the best cider used to
> involve multiple rackings. This seems quite different from the
> current consensus which seems to be rack near the end of ferment -
>

The point of multiple rackings during fermentation is to remove
nutrients by continually removing the yeast crop. This slows the ferment
down to the point where it may stick with residual sweetness - a goal of
cidermakers through the ages!! This was more likely to be successful in
the 'old days' when standard trees were grown under conditions with no
nitrogen inputs (even removal, if animals grazed underneath) and hence
the nutrient status of the ciders was already pretty limiting. This is
implicit in all the cider literature up to the beginning of the 20th
century and was still the case up to the 1950's in some places in the UK.

Andrew


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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Alexander Peckham wrote:
> I was thinking solids that made it
> through the press as opposed to pectins in the juice.

Let's not get confused here... What you call "solids" here are really
particles of flesh and/or skin and/or pips and/or worms... This should
not be confused with soluble solids, which are the sugar, acid and all
other stuff in solution. The particles will settle and make a deposit,
but the soluble solids will stay in solution.

> I have read
> Ted Burning's book and was fascinated that the best cider used to
> involve multiple rackings.  This seems quite different from the
> current consensus which seems to be rack near the end of ferment -
> indeed many on this forum seem to leave the cider on gross lees for
> quite a while before raking.

This was discussed last fall... See this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop/browse_frm/thread/c6ef2be5687708d8/c300679fcde4ac1b?lnk=gst&q=racking+schools+#c300679fcde4ac1b

I made an interesting experiment this last fall. As Andrew says about
the multiple racking process:

> This was more likely to be successful in
> the 'old days' when standard trees were grown under conditions with no
> nitrogen inputs

I have always had success in controlling my fermentations with this
multiple racking process, and systematically succeed to obtain
naturally off-dry and medium dry ciders at stable SG around 1.005 to
1.010. This because I have old standard trees and low-nitrogen juice.
But this fall, "in the name of science"!!! I bought some apples at the
market, commercially grown mid-season table apples, of the varieties
Lobo and Paulared, and started a cider with this blend. I don't expect
much as cider quality from this blend, but I wanted to know if I could
succeed to control a fermentation when all the odds were against me.
The answer is yes. It took 3 rackings. As expected the fermentation
started like a rocket, and in no time the SG was down to 1.020 when
the foam settled. I then proceeded to a first racking, followed by a
second racking a week later, and a third racking 2 weeks after the
second. This has definitely quieted down the fermentation and this
cider is now fermenting very slowly, its SG is 1.009 as of last
measurement. I intend to make a 4th racking soon to stabilize it
around SG 1.007.

Claude

[Alexander Peckham]

Thank you for your valuable comments. I was initially talking about gross solids . Particles that settle out in a few hours. Do I take it these are best removed prior to ferment?

With the multiple raking technique is there a loss in quality (eg volatiles ) linked with this practice? I will aim to do some side by side comparisons during the imminent season.

Regards, Alex

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/02/2013 18:14, Alexander Peckham wrote:
> Thank you for your valuable comments. I was initially talking about
> gross solids . Particles that settle out in a few hours. Do I take it
> these are best removed prior to ferment?

No. I don't believe this has ever been common practice in UK cidermaking
from fresh juice, nor ever regarded as generally necessary. In fact
there are oft-quoted reasons for not doing so, notably that the
(desirable) production of higher alcohols seems to be increased in the
presence of (insoluble) apple solids.

I think this is one aspect where cider-making differs from white wine
making, and the need does not transfer. I understand it is nowadays
normal to reduce the insoluble solids load in New World white grape
musts to around 1 - 2 % by volume, and there are a number of claimed
advantages for this, notably around retention of fruitiness and lack of
oxidation in warm climates. But in pack-pressed cider apple juices you
will probably only be finding about 2% solids anyway, because apple pulp
effectively 'self filters' as it is being pack-pressed in a way that I
don't think grapes do. It is normal to encourage, or at least not to
restrict, oxidation in cider juices, which is very different to most New
World white winemaking where inert gas and SO2 dosage at crushing are
normal.

However, things may be different when you are using dessert apples or
other forms of press - I don't know. I can only tell you what is
standard practice here.

>
> With the multiple raking technique is there a loss in quality (eg
> volatiles ) linked with this practice? I will aim to do some side by
> side comparisons during the imminent season.

I don't think you will find many people around today who are doing
multiple rackings (unless they are also keeving). As I said before, it
only makes sense if you know that you have nutrient poor fruit and you
are trying to encourage a deliberately stuck fermentation. Otherwise I
don't see any point to it. To your question, I would guess that any
transient loss of volatiles would be made up for by the continued yeast
activity anyway. If racking is properly done, only the headspace
volatiles are lost, and not those in solution.

[Alexander Peckham]

Very helpful as usual Andrew. Finding the commonalities and differences between winemaking and cider making is fascinating. As you found during your Australian trip, the proximity of a significant winemaking industry is heavily influencing some cider making.

Claude, in your current experiments did you inoculate?

Alex

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/02/2013 19:12, Alexander Peckham wrote:
>
> As you found during your Australian trip, the proximity of a significant
> winemaking industry is heavily influencing some cider making.
>

Not a bad thing overall I'd say. At least winemakers have the right sort
of discipline already, compared to many people here who still believe
that cidermaking is just a variation on beer brewing with a slight
change of raw material!

But you can go too far. I noted an obsession with the need to control
juice oxidation which was being transferred to cider making by some
people even when using European fruit, and which in my view did the
resultant ciders no favours because their inherent 'process flavour' had
not been allowed to develop.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Alexander Peckham wrote:
> Claude, in your current experiments did you inoculate?

About the test batch on which I wrote earlier, I didn't add anything,
no sulfite and no yeast. This was end of September, so my cider room
was still quite warm. The natural fermentation started very quickly. I
didn't keeve it either, and even if I would have wanted to keeve it,
the keeve would have failed because the fermentation started too
quickly.

On this same topic, Andrew wrote:
> I don't think you will find many people around today who are doing
> multiple rackings (unless they are also keeving). As I said before, it
> only makes sense if you know that you have nutrient poor fruit and you
> are trying to encourage a deliberately stuck fermentation. Otherwise I
> don't see any point to it.

Andrew, the first point I think is right, however I see a point in
doing the multiple rackings without keeving:
- In cases like this one, where the cider would have fermented to
dryness in about 3 to 4 weeks, I think we can improve the situation by
slowing things down with rackings.
- Some ciders won't keeve, hence you have a second chance by doing the
multiple rackings.
- Keeved ciders (for me at least) are extremely slow, and tend to
stick at very high SG (like 1.030). So I have to work a lot to make
them reach lower SG. I generally need to add some DAP to help them
reach SG 1.015. I find it easier with multiple rackings (and without
keeving) to obtain a cider with just a nice slight residual sugar, at
a SG of about 1.005.

Claude

[JezH]

I tend to move the juice around a bit as I press in batches and blend
as I go. Using the 'directed' method of natural fermentation (see
Andrews book or website!) also necessitates this - I press, test and
sulphite, and then 48 hours move into the fermentation tanks. Doing
things this way generally means that some of the solids get left
behind as a kind of natural racking.

Dessert fruit often throws much more than cider fruit, although I can
only speak in terms of using a pack press. This is because the fruit
takes less pressure before it breaches the cloths, and therefore when
pressing to 25 tons its just how it goes. Cider fruit is normally a
lot more fibrous and can take it (although last season proved that
this isn't always true!)

I don't think its something to get too worried about though - it will
get caught with the lees when you do your first racking - and I have
never really had problems with the cider naturally clearing, whether
cider or dessert fruit.

All the best

Jez

[Richard Reeves]

As this thread has alluded to the tendency of some (including myself) to treat the fermentation of Cider as a white wine, this seems the appropriate time to share something I experienced this year.

I have been saving my lesser desserts (mostly Golden Delicious along with some Red) for pressing and freezing to drink during the year as fresh apple juice. A few weeks after placing the juice in the freezer I noticed one of the half-gallon jugs (HDPE) had not made to the freezer, and sure enough, upon cracking the cap a slight PSST sound was heard. I thought  AHAH! A chance to do what (some of) those Crazy Brits do, an all-natural ferment!

That juice was transferred, untreated, to a 3/4 gal. glass jug where it was ignored until last week, with quite a lot of headspace I might add.  I must digress a bit and say that my Cider has always been treated like I would make a white wine (relatively high SO2, nutrient additions, pectic enzyme, temperature-controlled ferment, bone dry) and it tastes like, well, white wine. Not that I'm complaining about that, it's tasty and clean and saves me the expense of buying white wine in the market.

Last week I racked the experiment off some rather gooey and mucus-like floating lees, the look of which I have never seen in a ferment before. The Cider was cloudy, colored a deep pale orange unlike the pale straw color I usually get,  had a slight funk (I.E. not a super-clean modern white wine) in both the nose and palette, was low acid (at least compared to my regular Cider, which may reflect the starting juice of which I have no  numbers as I never intended to ferment it, rather than local flora and fauna inoculum) and was, after acclimating my taste buds to a different set of parameters quite delicious in it's own unique way. I should mention that I have never to my knowledge tasted anything approaching a classic farm cider as I am limited to what I can find in the market, most of which I suspect is plonk or near plonk, for lack of a more Cider-specific term.

I share this because as a long-time assistant  winemaker, this type of juice treatment (none) is anathema to me, and will require some mental retraining on my part to grow accustomed to, and would encourage those of my ilk to temper your fear of the unknown and give it a (metered) go. Next season I shall devote a percentage of my better desserts to such minimalism. Furthermore, as I have 60 feathered maidens of mixed bittersweets arriving in a few weeks for planting, I can look forward to trying this on a more appropriate base juice in the near future.

Cheers,  

Richard Reeves   Lake county,    California

[Jez Howat]

Richard,

 

We aren’t all mad (he says with a twitch!)

 

There are all sorts of variables that will make a difference – the difference in temperature between Oz and the UK is the most obvious thing I can think of. To some extent you pays your money and takes your chance.

 

If you are using fairly acidic dessert fruit, not adding sulphite at the start is probably not going to be a problem – if you are using cider fruit, after testing Ph I would suggest using 50% of the dose (e.g. I use half a Camden tablet per gallon generally). Its enough to knock out bugs, but not enough to clean it out. Its not quite so mad as a fully natural ferment with no So2… although I there are a few producers over here whom I respect that make a point of not using sulphites whatsoever.

 

Will be interesting to hear what you think of your scrumpy (if you can top it up and airlock it that would be good… without wishing to teach you to suck eggs!)

 

All the best

 

Jez