Lost cider from horizontally stored bottles

[Joe_in_CT]

I have lost cider from a number of different batches that I bottled in
champagne bottles with plastic corks.

The cider remaining in the bottles tasted fine and was carbonated.

I found it curious that the loss was across a number of batches
bottled at 1.010, 1.008, and 1.006 sg's and bottled on different
dates.

I'm going to work on finding a more temperature stable storage area
that will permit me to store the champagne bottles upright. And I
believe an Italian corker might be on my Christmas list.

Any comments or suggestions?

Joe

[from Heather]

I made some wine and used some plastic corks once because I wanted to store upright, but it turned out that some of them got stored on their side. Things started leaking. Plastic just doesn't always get that good seal.

Heather

> Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2012 19:06:36 -0800
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Lost cider from horizontally stored bottles
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> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Joe_in_CT wrote:
> I have lost cider from a number of different batches that I bottled in
> champagne bottles with plastic corks.
>
> The cider remaining in the bottles tasted fine and was carbonated.

What do you mean by "lost"? Is it that part of the cider escaped from
the bottle and whey were only partly full when you opened them? Was
this on all bottles or only on some of them?

[Joe_in_CT]

Yes, cider had escaped from nearly half of the bottles. Most lost a
few ounces, while a few lost easily half of their contents.

The other bottles seem fine.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Joe_in_CT wrote:
> Yes, cider had escaped from nearly half of the bottles. Most lost a
> few ounces, while a few lost easily half of their contents.

Are you sure the stoppers you used were the right size for the
bottles? Seems to me the problem is there...

[Dougal]

I'm not quite sure what it is you are describing.

Bottles using cork closures are stored on their sides because the liquid causes the cork to swell, creating a better seal and reducing oxidation.  Stored on end, the corks soon dry out and shrink, and the contents are usually spoiled.

Plastic and metal closures, of course, are not affected in the same way so there is no need to store bottles with such closures on their side.

If the contents are carbonated the closures need to be secured, either by crown caps or wires.  It sounds like your bottles had some pressure and the closures were not secured.  If that is the case, it doesn't matter whether the corks are plastic or cork, and the bottles upright or horizontal; sooner or later they will blow!

[Joe_in_CT]

> Are you sure the stoppers you used were the right size for the
> bottles? Seems to me the problem is there...

I am able to press the plastic "stoppers" into the bottles manually...
It takes some effort to have the them fully seated. The corks were
purchased from one of the larger home-brew suppliers in the U.S. and
are sold as "champagne stoppers". I don't believe their diameter was
indicated but I will do a little research.

> If the contents are carbonated the closures need to be secured, either by crown caps or wires.

I'm making sparkling cider... I use wire wire cages.


Do a lot of people use plastic?

As a hobbyist, a champagne corker will be an investment, but I feel
that most of the leakage would have been prevented with corks, as
opposed to "stoppers". Having said that, I also believe that storing
the bottles upright would have allowed excess pressure to escape
without expelling any of the contents. Caged plastic stoppers on
upright bottles may have been just fine...

[Dougal]

Having said that, I also believe that storing the bottles upright would have allowed excess pressure to escape

without expelling any of the contents.

If excess pressure can escape, air can get in.  I suspect you will end up with flat, oxydised cider.  I think Joe may be right; the closures may not be the correct diameter for your bottles.
 

[Joe_in_CT]

> If excess pressure can escape, air can get in.

I don't agree.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Joe wrote:
> > If excess pressure can escape, air can get in.
>
> I don't agree.

I am with Joe on this one. For air to get in, the pressure in the
bottle would have to be lower that atmospheric. What I see is that
when the bottle internal pressure gets high enough, some CO2 escapes
because the seal is not perfect between bottle and stopper. But there
remains some positive pressure in the bottle, and thus air doesn't
come in.
Claude

[greg l.]

Well Claude I have to disagree with you. Partial pressure is a
difficult concept but my reading of Daltons law is that Oxygen can
move into the cider even if there is a positive pressure of co2 moving
out. So long as there is less oxygen inside the bottle than outside,
the o2 will still try to get in.

Greg

[Claude Jolicoeur]

greg l. wrote:
> Well Claude I have to disagree with you. Partial pressure is a
> difficult concept but my reading of Daltons law is that Oxygen can
> move into the cider even if there is a positive pressure of co2 moving
> out. So long as there is less oxygen inside the bottle than outside,
> the o2 will still try to get in.

I must admit I hadn't thought of that one! Makes sense...
Claude

[Dick Dunn]

On Sat, Nov 10, 2012 at 11:34:56AM -0800, greg l. wrote:
> Well Claude I have to disagree with you. Partial pressure is a
> difficult concept but my reading of Daltons law is that Oxygen can
> move into the cider even if there is a positive pressure of co2 moving
> out. So long as there is less oxygen inside the bottle than outside,
> the o2 will still try to get in.

It's not a situation involving partial pressures. There's no issue of
permeability here.

Think about the dynamics. It's not that the seal leaks all the time
(else there wouldn't be any pressure in the bottle) but rather that it
can only stay closed against some amount of pressure less than what is
developing in bottle. So the pressure in the bottle builds up until it's
enough to break the seal momentarily and let some CO2 escape; then it will
close again. During the time the seal is open, there's CO2 flowing out of
the leak. For O2 to get in, it would have to move against that flow. So
it depends on how long the seal stays broken and how fast the CO2 escapes
during that time...an O2 molecule is like a person trying to enter a
theater when it's just let out and there's a crowd leaving.

Some tiny amount of O2 may succeed in bouncing against the exit flow of
CO2. But again, it's a matter of dynamics.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[greg l.]

I think that if the closure is too small there will always be some
permeability. As soon as the co2 starts moving out some o2 can be
moving in. A proper closure is designed to be impermeable in both
directions, allowing for the permeability of the materials used in the
closure. I agree with Dougal, if the closure isn't working over time
the cider will oxidise. I don't know how quickly that will happen and
if the quantities are small and the cider is consumed in a few months
it isn't an issue.

Greg

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/11/2012 21:10, Dick Dunn wrote:

>
> Some tiny amount of O2 may succeed in bouncing against the exit flow of
> CO2. But again, it's a matter of dynamics.
>

But I understand this is a plastic 'champagne cork' as sold to home
winemakers, and plastics such as polyethylene (which is most likely in
this case) are notoriously permeable to gasses by molecular diffusion.
(Those that I have seen are hollow inside and some have added 'fins',
but either way there is a very thin layer of plastic to make the seal).
So couldn't there be some O2 diffusing in through the plastic itself,
despite what happens in the dynamics around the wall / plastic interface
(where I otherwise tend to agree with your summary)?

But in this case it would surely make little difference whether the
bottle was horizontal or vertical? (BTW I am not querying the original
supposition that liquid was lost by simple internal pressure encouraging
the seeping outwards when stored horizontally).


Andrew


--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

In this instance it's purely academic because the loss of cider is the
main issue. It's well known that plastic isn't elastic enough to give
a good seal, cork is much better. The issue is theoretical but I think
Dalton's law applies and o2 can get in around the stopper as well as
through, the negative pressure of the oxygen is constant which is why
keeping a good seal on your cider is always very important.

[greg l.]

I was replying to Claude's comment

" But there remains some positive pressure in the bottle, and thus air
doesn't come in.
Claude"

This is a common misconception and dangerous thinking for a cider
maker. O2 (air) can get in against a positive pressure, so you have to
keep it out. The rest of the technicalities of bottle closures is a
very big subject.

[Joe_in_CT]

Are many people using champagne corks on their bottles of sparkling
cider?

And if stored upright, will caged corks allow excess pressure to
escape?

[scott h]

A little note about cork closures being stored on their sides:

It flies in the face of "common wisdom", but I recently learned that all the major sparkling wine producers now almost universally ship their product upright.  I met the fellow who was responsible for this change.  He worked for Korbel for about 30 years. He did a test measuring the outward (sealing) pressure of corks after being both stored with corks wet and dry.  It turned out that the dry corks maintained a better seal while the wet corks actually lost elasticity over time, thus losing sealing pressure.

Scott

Tilted Shed Ciderworks

[Joe_in_CT]

Bump.......