wormy

[from Heather]

So I've scouting out potential apple trees in the neighborhood. There is an abandoned house that I knew had one tree, but it turns out it has two others with small apples. However, the small apples appear to have some worm. I was going to contact the property owner and get offical permission to pick, but I wonder if it is worth it. I know the general rule is that if you wouldn't eat it, don't make cider from it, so I'm going back in forth in my head if these are usable or not.

Heather

[Michael Cobb]

I think the answer lies in time and availability. If you have plenty of
non wormy apples when why bother. If you have time but few apples you can
cut out the worms. Commercially this would not be viable and I am sure
many a good cider has had less than perfect apples in it. It also depends
on what you are wanting to do with it, it is more important to have clean
fruit if you are drinking it fresh and less important if fermenting. I
get a lot of insect attack in my orchard and having time available I
always cut every apple in two before they are ready to mill. I have found
a surprising number that are rotting from the inside these get discarded.
A little insect damage in the core or a hole dug out by a slug gets cut
back to clean apple and the apple is then used. But then I have the time
and only make approximately 300 litres of cider a year.

Michael Cobb

[Cheshire Matt]

> I know the general rule is that if you wouldn't eat it, don't make
> cider from it,

Can't say I've ever adhered to that rule... More: if you can't eat it,
then _why_not_ make alcohol from it??! And besides, if I did chuck the
wormy ones, about 3/4 of what I've got already would be binned. Adds a
bit of protein, surely? :)

[from Heather]

>  I always cut every apple in two before they are ready to mill.

At the present, my mill forces me to cut in half because it won't accept a whole apple.

> A little insect damage in the core or a hole dug out by a slug gets cut
> back to clean apple and the apple is then used.

Slugs that climb trees and get into your apples!?! Wow, I'm thankful we don't have those here! Though, we have our native slugs and the European red slug. I guess Nebraska doesn't have slugs at all.

>
>
> >
> > So I've scouting out potential apple trees in the neighborhood. There is
> > an abandoned house that I knew had one tree, but it turns out it has two
> > others with small apples. However, the small apples appear to have some
> > worm. I was going to contact the property owner and get offical permission
> > to pick, but I wonder if it is worth it. I know the general rule is that
> > if you wouldn't eat it, don't make cider from it, so I'm going back in
> > forth in my head if these are usable or not.
> >
> > Heather
>
> >
> >
>
>

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[Ray Blockley]

We adopt a similar approach to Michael - but I find that throwing the apples into a 'bath' and leaving them for half-an-hour or so, most worms migrate out of the apple for air...

 

However, don't forget that the worms can add nitrogenous material to your cider that will help it ferment... grim but true I believe? The alcohol and acids will see to the rest, especially with a careful sulphite regime.

 

As someone who scours the countryside searching for all sorts of apples to test and use, I no longer have that many qualms about using "wormy" apples. Black or rotten or the slightest sign of surface mould is a completely different matter.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray.
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

--

[Dave]

I don't know how long cider has been made for, but I am pretty
confident that it was well before insecticides were invented/used.
I very rarely see a wormy apple, but if I did I would deem it suitable
for cider.
All my fruit is picked off the tree, so I don't wash anything. The
only exclusions I have are visible rots.

[greg l.]

My apples always get stung by queensland fruit fly. They're not
suitable for eating but fine for cider if I get them in time. Still my
wife refuses to drink it, says she doesn't want to be drinking grubs.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Heather wrote:
> I know the general rule is that if you wouldn't eat it, don't make cider from it,

Heather,
Where does that rule come from????
As far as I know, it has always been the opposite, i.e.: If you
wouldn't eat it, then use it for cider!
And this is exactly what I do. When I pick my apples, the nice ones go
for eating and the rest, scabby, wormy, go for cider. I have been
doing this for 25 years without any ill effect. As others have noted
however, it is preferable to remove moldy or rotten parts.
Claude

[from Heather]

Andrew's Craft Cidermaking, page 48. "Rotten apples should be discarded - a good rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't willingly eat it then don't make cider from it."
Ben Watson, Cider: Hard and Sweet, page 53. "Don't consider using any apple in your cider blend that you wouldn't eat yourself, in terms either of flavor of or quality."

I knew that it definitely applied to bruising and rotting, not scabbing and scarring, but nobody said anything about worms.



> Date: Thu, 9 Sep 2010 18:51:23 -0700
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: wormy
> From: cj...@gmc.ulaval.ca
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Ray Blockley]

Heather wrote:

 

> Andrew's Craft Cidermaking, page 48. "Rotten apples should be discarded - a good rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't willingly eat it then don't make cider from it."
> Ben Watson, Cider: Hard and Sweet, page 53. "Don't consider using any apple in your cider blend that you wouldn't eat yourself, in terms either of flavor of or quality."

> I knew that it definitely applied to bruising and rotting, not scabbing and scarring, but nobody said anything about worms.

 

I think the confusion lies in that these are "rule of thumb" principles. For instance I would not willingly eat a Tremlett's Bitter or a Foxwhelp, but they are very good in a cider :-)

 

Bruising is fine - an apple that is so bruised or ripened that it is all brown but when cut open shows no sign of rot or mould, and doesn't smell "fusty" is also fine to use.

 

If you steer clear of moulds and rot you'll be fine. Or simply cut out the bad bit / too wormy bit which is what we and many others do.

 

Ray.
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

----- Original Message -----

From: from Heather

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Dick Dunn]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 02:43:25PM +0000, from Heather wrote:
> Andrew's Craft Cidermaking, page 48. "Rotten apples should be discarded - a good rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't willingly eat it then don't make cider from it."
> Ben Watson, Cider: Hard and Sweet, page 53. "Don't consider using any apple in your cider blend that you wouldn't eat yourself, in terms either of flavor of or quality."

Ben will just have to be wrong on that one...unless we're no longer to use
apples with substantial tannin?

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Andrew Lea]

On 10/09/2010 15:43, from Heather wrote:
> Andrew's /Craft Cidermaking/, page 48. "Rotten apples should be

> discarded - a good rule of thumb is that if you wouldn't willingly eat
> it then don't make cider from it."
>

Three comments:

1. I often eat wormy apples, I just eat round or cut out the wormy
parts. No point in wasting them! But I don't eat mouldy or rotten ones.
Light bruising is fine (and in practice inevitable) so long as mould
growth isn't evident. As Ray says, it is a 'rule of thumb' hence one to
be interpreted with a modicum of common sense not with slavish dedication.

2. I don't believe there is a problem pressing wormy apples. Do you
really imagine that commercial cidermakers open and inspect each single
fruit for worms?

3. I'm not convinced by the argument that worms add nitrogen. The worms
are moth grubs which have lived on nothing but apple since their eggs
hatched. Any protein they contain must have come from the protein or
free amino acids of the apple itself. There is no net gain of amino
nitrogen that I can see.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Nat West]

On Fri, Sep 10, 2010 at 8:29 AM, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

... There is no net gain of amino nitrogen that I can see.

Unless they suck nitrogen from the air and convert it to your "amino nitrogen".

-Nat West, teetering dangerously close to the edge of his knowledge

[Andrew Lea]

I don't believe there are any animals that can fix nitrogen directly.
That's the province of specialised micro-organisms.

[Nat West]

Thank you for the continued education on all levels, Andrew.

-Nat West

[Carl LeClair]

I will second the thank you to all who have posted for the insight
about this topic.
Most interesting!

Regards,

Carl

> > cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com<cider-workshop%2Bunsu...@googlegroups.com>
> > .

[BristolCider]

"wormy" - how do you determine this without disecting every apple? I
see an aplle on the floor and if it's not mouldy or rotten then it's a
candidate for cider, if I was to exclude every apple with some
entrance hole in it then i'd have hardly any left.