film yeast- yikes!

[dan]

Hey guys,

I went to look at my cider today to consider bottling and found it
has developed a film yeast on top. This must have just happened in
the last 24 hours as I didn't notice it yesterday; I must admit I had
too much airspace in the carboy.

I understand I could add SO2 to neutralize the "baddies" that may
have developed, but I wanted to bottle this w/ priming sugar for a
sparkling cider. If I SO2 it and bottle tonight, won't I kill the
present yeast and ruin the chances of carbonating in the bottle?
Would a reduced So2 rate do the trick, and leave my present cultured
yeast intact to do it's work?

If I forego the SO2 entirely, prime it as planned, and bottle tonight,
do I have a good chance of the cultured yeast taking over, carbonating
the cider and neutralizing the aerobic yeast? I'm hoping the answer
is "yes" as the film yeast has just developed, and this would be my
easiest option.

Option #3 I suppose would be to So2 and rack, wait 24 hrs., repitch
yeast, rack onto priming sugar and bottle. That sounds like too much
trouble, and I hope it's not necessary.

Thanks in advance for any advice to bail me out.
-Dan

[Claude Jolicoeur]

dan wrote:
>  I went to look at my cider today to consider bottling and found it
> has developed a film yeast on top.  This must have just happened in
> the last 24 hours as I didn't notice it yesterday; I must admit I had
> too much airspace in the carboy.

This is what I would do - it doesn't mean that others wouldn't have
better ideas...
I would first try to remove as much of the film as possible. I have
done this in the past with some absorbant paper towel. Then I would
try something new, but I think it is a good idea that I got from this
forum: take a sort of mist sprayer for plant foliage and fill it with
a sulfite solution, spray it on the top of the cider - hopefully this
would act mostly on the top layer of the cider and kill the film
yeasts without going to the bulk of the cider. I would then (maybe
next day) rack in a smaller vessel such that there is no more air
space and wait some time just to make sure the film doesn't reappear.
If after a few weeks if the film hasn't reappeared, then you could
probably bottle the cider safely.
Claude

[dan]

Whoa. Great reply, and interesting solution.

My problem is that the cider is now in a glass carboy with a narrow
neck, so I can't really go in there with a paper towel. I would also
probably have great trouble spraying the surface of the cider through
that narrow opening.

Do you think I could rack it out (keeving style) and just try to leave
that top layer of suspicious yeast behind? I could carefully rack it
into another vessel (bucket) w/ the priming sugar and bottle straight
from there. Is that realistic, or just reckless?

-Dan

[Claude Jolicoeur]

dan wrote:
> Do you think I could rack it out (keeving style) and just try to leave
> that top layer of suspicious yeast behind?  I could carefully rack it
> into another vessel (bucket) w/ the priming sugar and bottle straight
> from there.  Is that realistic, or just reckless?

Personnally, I would want to make sure the problem is solved before I
bottle... This means taking an action I consider appropriate, and then
wait long enough to make sure it was actually appropriate to solve the
problem. If you have 24 bottles that develop a film, then you have 24
problems...
So why not try to careffully rack it into a smaller carboy (or, if you
don't have a carboy that is slightly smaller, you can reduce the
actual volume of a carboy by, for example, putting glass marbles
inside) and try to leave the film in the original vessel. Then you
could try to work with a sulfite spray.
Just a suggestion...
Claude

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/11/2010 00:53, dan wrote:
> Whoa. Great reply, and interesting solution.

Claude's idea is very neat. I have done something similar in the past
myself. The point is that it's only the surface which is affected - film
yeasts will not develop in the body of the liquid, although if the
infection is heavy some adverse flavours will of course diffuse into the
bulk of the cider.
> >

> Do you think I could rack it out (keeving style) and just try to leave
> that top layer of suspicious yeast behind? I could carefully rack it
> into another vessel (bucket) w/ the priming sugar and bottle straight
> from there. Is that realistic, or just reckless?

I personally think that will be OK. What will work in your favour is
that you plan to put the cider into sealed bottles for a secondary
fermentation. The fermenting yeasts will scavenge most of the oxygen in
the system and the film yeasts will not be able to grow much more.
Besides, they could only grow at the air/ liquid interface, which is
very small in a bottle. I think you will find under those circumstances
that the problem will be self-limiting since air access will be very
restricted and film yeasts are highly aerobic.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[Wilf]

To get rid of floating bits in a glass carboy I've added marbles
untill it pushes the film yeast or floating bits out the top. It's
surprisinly effective. might be worth a shot before you rack it
accross to a clean vessel

Wilf

[dan]

Thanks guys,

I decided to sleep on it and will deal with it this morning. It was
good to hear some more ideas from this group as well.

I was thinking of racking into a new vessel w/ SO2, waiting 24 hrs.,
repitching yeast, waiting another 24 hrs., and then racking w/ priming
sugar and bottling. That felt like an awful lot of work, and I'm not
even entirely sure it would be effective.

I suspected just bottling straight away with priming sugar might work
as Andrew suggested. Leaving little surface area for the film in the
bottle, along with encouraging the cultured yeast to eat up some more
sugar and produce CO2 in the bottle, making an inhospitable
environment for the aerobic film yeast. I may do just that.

I still welcome any more feedback.

-Dan

> > Claude- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[dan]

Update (with another question):

I went ahead and bottled w/ priming sugar, trying to leave the film
yeast behind. I think I was relatively successful. It's all set to
condition in the bottle, but if I see any new film developing I'll
happily drink it up; this is hands-down the tastiest cider I've made
(that's not really saying much), and hopefully it will just get
better.

This experience has brought to mind another question: When a cider is
"bottle-conditioned" with the addition of priming sugar, what does the
atmosphere in the headspace of the bottle consist of? Is it just
"air" as we know it, or is there an overwhelming amount of CO2
residing in that space? Bear in mind that I did not add SO2 at the
time of bottling, because I wanted further fermentation and
carbonation.

Thanks, Dan

[Andrew Lea]

On 06/11/2010 20:26, dan wrote:

> condition in the bottle, but if I see any new film developing I'll
> happily drink it up;

Don't be too hasty! A small amount of new film may form but under the
conditions you now have it will be self-limiting and nothing bad will
happen. Give it time to condition.

>
> This experience has brought to mind another question: When a cider is
> "bottle-conditioned" with the addition of priming sugar, what does the
> atmosphere in the headspace of the bottle consist of? Is it just
> "air" as we know it, or is there an overwhelming amount of CO2
> residing in that space?

To a first approximation there is 1 atmosphere of air plus as many new
atmospheres of CO2 as you have generated - probably around 2 or so.