Distilling Question for Pommeau project

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Matthew Vasilev

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Feb 25, 2021, 7:21:29 PM2/25/21
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Hello all,

I’m looking to have a local distiller contract distill some cider of ours with the aim to age the distillate for several years in barrel before blending it with a new cider for the purposes of making a traditional pommeau.

My questions for the group - if anyone has experience or knowledge of the traditional French practices
1) in terms of preferred ABV of the aging the spirit.

2) and age of barrels that are preferred? My hunch is that fresh oak is not necessarily wanted for the goal of pommeau as it may impart too strong of a vanilla note etc.

Curious what anyone knows first hand or has gleaned from their travels!

Thanks as always for your combined wisdom and generosity.

Cheers,
Matthew

Stephen Buffington

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Feb 26, 2021, 7:16:38 AM2/26/21
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Warning, overly long response to follow! I guess this is what happens when I how so much thinking time distilling 

Hi Mathew, good questions all and I hope someone with a lot more French specific knowledge can chime in. I have, what we call in the construction trades, just enough knowledge to be dangerous. I have spent the last 2 years making brandy, Pommeau, and using new and used barrels to answer these questions. I don’t have all of them yet but I will share the trade-offs I have found.

New barrels are fine and sometimes necessary for starting off and they can give you a lot of flavor. If you can get a used spirit barrel that is probably best but I used new American oak with a medium toast (don’t use char) and multiple small ones instead of one large one. Seems crazy but it takes a lot of cider to fill bigger barrels and I wanted to start aging smaller batches. What that means is that the first one in the barrel might stay in there for 6 weeks, next for 3 months and longer to taste. I can move them to plastic if I have the oak I want but not the oxidation. Having these small fractions to use for blending is nice and once the barrel is more neutral you can take advantage of the oxidative benefits and leave the brandy or Pommeau in the barrel. I also am producing brandy for sale, so the oakier batches might not end up in the Pommeau. 

The question of proof is much more nuanced and could start a heated debate. If cider started off at 12+% ABV we wouldn’t have many trade offs, but alas it is much lower. What that means is that when you shoot for a specific proof you are making processing decisions. If your distiller uses a column still they can dial in what you want but that is a process that is going to strip a lot of aroma and flavor in exchange for ABV. I use a pot still. Contrary to popular marketing, single distillation is the best flavor, but results in very little 40+% ABV. Most people with pots would just double distill I think. I have an elaborate system of adding enough low hearts (~32-46%) from the last batch to the cider batch being distilled to give me about 1/3 of my run at 48-55%. This is the choice cut and is what I want for the barrel. Delicious!

If I was just making Brandy we could stop here, but with Pommeau there is one more challenge. If you add ~50% you are going to have to add a lot to get fermenting juice to ~18% final proof.  Now you are diluting the sugar with really nice brandy, not necessarily a problem but kind of extravagant and perhaps not the sweetness level you desire. Many people (most?) will use a much higher double distilled (or higher) brandy to maximize sugar. I believe this leads to a less integrated taste but if you aged it long enough perhaps it will be what your after. I have a workaround where I save my tails for a dedicated second distillation (takes about 7-8 batches) and add this to the choice cut to get it around/ above 60%. I am usually blending different barrels of brandy to the desired mix right before arresting the fermentation. A lot of this part is personal taste but I am very happy with my final product. Full disclosure I like Brandy more than Pommeau.

Since I have probably have already riled some feathers I might as well go on with other caveats / considerations:

Aging Pommeau is personal taste, their is no right answer. With Port, which is Pommeau’s grape equivalent there is Ruby and Tawny. The Ruby has the concentrated fruit flavors, little aging in barrels and Tawny sits in barrels oxidizing, creating beautiful secondary flavors. It takes a long time for these to become pronounced and much of the fruitiness is oxidized away. Same with the brandy; it loses aroma and fruitiness in the barrel, if it ever had it to begin with (column still!)

Make sure the still has a lot of copper surface area if you use SO2 in your cider (hopefully in moderation). If their condenser is stainless they can pack copper mesh in it to grab the SO2. I can almost tell the ppm by the smell and color when I scrub my copper. If you don’t use SO2 make sure they have a lot of copper to catch flaws, though there are some that will still come through.

Distillation is not a purification or filtration, but more of a concentration process. If you put bad cider in you will get bad brandy out. On the other hand if you put good cider in it can be delicious. Ideally the cider would have high aroma, high tannin and high acid. The aroma is key, tannins often come through on mouthfeel and acid keeps your pH low so you need less SO2. You can also add malic acid; I haven’t seen sharpness come through the distillation.

Wow, that was a lot longer than I planned! Please feel free to send any questions.

Stephen Buffington
Shawnee Hill Farm
Vashon, WA USA

Martin Thoburn

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Feb 26, 2021, 9:49:14 AM2/26/21
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Stephen, thanks for sharing you process of making Pommeau.

I'm a bit confused by this sentence below.
 
If I was just making Brandy we could stop here, but with Pommeau there is one more challenge. If you add ~50% you are going to have to add a lot to get fermenting juice to ~18% final proof.  

What fermenting juice are you referring too?  Pommeau is Apple Brandy mixed with sweet cider.  Or are you blending with dry fermented cider?

I like your idea of just doing a single distillation with a pot still..  Going crazy with column stills and distilling to 90% alchohol might as well be vodka from potatoes.  I'v tasted 180 proof distilled apple brandy and it was intense.  No apple flavor what so ever.   To my understanding of Pommeau the final product should be around 20% and a typical blend is 50% brandy and 50% sweet cider.  Sounds like your levels are perfect.  40% brandy cut with in half with sweet cider should get you 20% final ABV or 18% as you noted above.

How long do you age your Brandy in barrels before aging them again blended with juice.  I believe the french age the calvados for 2-4 years and then the Pommeau another 2+ so that is 4 years minimum in the barrel.  But with smaller barrels the wood character would be intensified with that much time in the barrel.  Do you reduce this or just enjoy the extra wood character in your Pommeau?

-Martin



 

Brian Drake

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Feb 26, 2021, 11:02:44 AM2/26/21
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125pf entering barrel is traditional.  Medium toast French oak is probably where you want to go - too much and you lose the delicate apple brandy character.

For a cheaper solution, get a used barrel (neutral French oak) from white wine or something like that.  Add some medium French oak chips - a few grams per gallon is a good start.  Much cheaper than a fresh barrel and easier to control your barrel dose.  

Good luck!

Brian 
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Martin Thoburn

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Feb 26, 2021, 12:07:07 PM2/26/21
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Thanks Brian,

So if the Brandy is 125 proof or lets just say 60% to get a final 20% product a 2/1 ratio of brandy to cider would need for the final blend.  

Or is the apple brandy water down to 40% with water after barrel aging?  I see most apple brandies are closer to 40-50% ABV

Not sure you would also do this watering down step if the end product was Pommeau???


Martin

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Stephen Buffington

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Feb 26, 2021, 3:11:41 PM2/26/21
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Hi Martin, yeah that step wasn’t that clear. What I do, and others I know, is add brandy to cider that has just started fermenting, say at 0.5-1% ABV. If you pitch a commercial yeast for this has to do with other production concerns. If it was part of a larger cider batch that I am splitting later I would probably pitch, but if Pommeau only and the fruit was clean this is a great opportunity for a wild ferment. The very beginning offers some nice fermentation flavors and having some dead yeast in the raw Pommeau adds complexity. This definitely creates a settling step and you want to put fairly clear Pommeau in the barrel.

Regarding proof it does get into preference. Adding 40% brandy would be very low sugar and adding 70%+ would be very sweet. I wouldn’t add water to a higher proof, better to leave it in during distillation. If you want a lower proof, and subsequently less sweet cider I would blend in a lower proof, less distilled product. That’s what I do, but kind of in reverse, trying to get my choice cut high enough for the sugar level I (really my customers) want. I would suggest you try making it at different proofs (i.e 45, 55, 65) and see what you like. 

Like I said earlier this process is really about trade offs and personal preference. 

Stephen

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Brian Drake

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Feb 26, 2021, 7:59:31 PM2/26/21
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I made a little batch of pommeau for testing - I used 140pf eau de vie (sat on french oak chips for a while) directly into unfermented cider - worked out partial fractions to get to 18-22% ABV.  I hear what you're saying - I guess if you had 40-50% ABV brandy to work with, then that's what you could do, but why dilute if you don't need to?  In the bigger scheme of things, the difference is not all that substantial probably..

Brian

Martin

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Martin Thoburn

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Feb 26, 2021, 8:47:03 PM2/26/21
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Yeah, I’d be curious todo an A/B test on ratio of juice / brandy ratio for Pammeau.

To my understanding the reason distillers age at higher proof (cask strength) then they put in bottle is to save on barrel costs.  The higher ABV liquid you can get in the barrel and dilute later the less storage and barrel costs you have up front.  Then diluting it with water later to the minimum levels maximizes profits and probably also appears to some consumers who would be put off by the heat of high ABV booze.

I had one distiller tell me he was a big fan of low ABV barrel aging because the sugar in the barrel wood absorbs faster in water then alcohol, so the more ABV the less sugar from the barrel wood was imparted into the Whiskey. 

As for the Pommeau, the ratio of blending with 60% Cask Strength vs 40% bottle strength would mean adding about 50% more sweet juice in the final mix to get a 20% final product. That would mean 50% more sugar, more acid and more juice flavor.  This may or may not be desirable depending on the pallet and/or juice characteristics.  Not sure, but I think it would be substantial and noticeable even to the untrained taster.  

Would be fun to A/B test on a blind audience.  

Best,
Martin

rhand...@centurytel.net

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Feb 27, 2021, 1:42:03 PM2/27/21
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Use the Pearson blending square to calculate your portions. For the target % you need to make sure that it is sufficient to stop fermentation say > 16% abv  but depending on taste not overly “alcoholic” say < 20%.  Another factor is at what point to blend the fermenting cider, again this is a matter of taste, are you aiming for sweetness or dryness? Do age it.

Martin Thoburn

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Feb 27, 2021, 4:55:36 PM2/27/21
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Richard,

I was always under the assumption that the juice was unfermented.  Have your tried partially fermented juice?
Wikipedia states that it is 2/3 juice and 1/3 Calvados.  That would be on par with using cask strength 60% brandy with sweet cider with 0% abv.

Wes Cherry

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Feb 27, 2021, 5:20:16 PM2/27/21
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In the US, the juice in a pommeau must be partially fermented so it is taxed as a fortified wine.  If it was just juice and brandy then it would be taxed as a premixed drink cocktail and require a different license. 

And as Stephen pointed out, the yeast and early fermentation products adds flavor and character to the pommeau.   I shoot for a wild ferment to 1% ABV and hit it with ~110 proof brandy that has ideally spent a year or so in a barrel. 

 I also tend to use a fair bit of bittersharps or sharps because most pommeaus are a bit sweet and flabby in my opinion.

-'//es Cherry
Dragon's Head Cider
Vashon Island, Wa US

On Feb 27, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Martin Thoburn <gra...@gmail.com> wrote:

Richard,

Martin Thoburn

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Feb 27, 2021, 5:39:03 PM2/27/21
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Ah, that makes sense thanks for clarifying.  

Nicholas Bradstock

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Feb 27, 2021, 5:52:35 PM2/27/21
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The partial fermentation requirement referred to by Wes has always been necessary also in European fortified beverages to maintain official acceptance at wine-based tax rates in bands of strength rather than at the higher distilled beverage tax rates applied per degree of ABV.
In Europe, a beverage must generally exceed 1.2%ABV through fermentation to qualify as a fermented beverage before the distilled element may be added to convert it to ‘fortified’.  If the total ABV remains <15% after the mix has been made it may even be possible still to claim fermented beverage tax rates.
Of course perhaps, this is only of importance to commercial enterprises but the tax structure has undoubtedly driven the development of fortified beverages and their specs and method of making.
Nick

iPhone

On 27 Feb 2021, at 22:20, Wes Cherry <w...@dragonsheadcider.com> wrote:

In the US, the juice in a pommeau must be partially fermented so it is taxed as a fortified wine.  If it was just juice and brandy then it would be taxed as a premixed drink cocktail and require a different license. 

rhand...@centurytel.net

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Feb 27, 2021, 9:51:47 PM2/27/21
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We always use bittersweet and age it in old barrels, one year is good, two is better. Keep in mind that the partially fermented cider needs a bit of time to settle.

Martin Thoburn

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Feb 27, 2021, 11:39:50 PM2/27/21
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Thanks Stephen.  That's solid advice.  Appreciate it.

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