Preservative index (Delle Units) for sweet cider

[Dmitrii Tikhomirov]

Hello colleagues,

help me please. I'm looking for information about preservative index. Something bigger and comprehensive than just Delle Units and Böhi principe. https://vinlab.com/delle-units-alcohol-sugar-combination-to-achieve-microbial-stabilization-in-sweet-wines/

The formula that will combine the impact of several factors combination to achieve microbial stabilisation in sweet cider:

- the amount of sugar

- volume of alcohol

- carbon dioxide pressure

- concentration of sulfur dioxide

- pH level

- TA

Thanks for your help.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Hello Dmitrii,
I've looked at the formula for Delle Units, and can't see how this may correlate with actual situations that we see.
For example, an ice cider, with 8% ABV and 140 g/L residual sugar would give 50 DU, much less that the 78 required for stability according to this. Note that an ice cider is still, but the pH is usually quite low.
In general, to insure stability you have to do one of the following:
- Kill the microorganisms (pasteurisation, or addition of alcohol)
- Physically remove the microorganisms (sterile filtration)
- Remove the nutrients from the cider so that microorganisms can't proliferate (by successive rackings)

The only use I can see with a formula such as this for DU is for making a fortified cider (e.g. pommeau). But in the case of pommeau or similar, the ABV would always be around 18% which is sufficient by itself to insure stability.
So I am wondering what is the point in using such a formula?
Claude

[Dmitrii Tikhomirov]

Dear Claude,

I'm going to make champagne style cider (ABV 6%, SO2-150ppm, CO2 - 6 atm, and 15-20 g/l sugar added after dеgorgeage).

Böhi principe (method) proclaims that fruit juice is stable if stored unders 7 bar CO2 pressure at 15C.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=YDbtCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=B%C3%B6hi+juice&source=bl&ots=KetHc-PrXm&sig=ik_4au2bwepqFYemAnMKe-sONo4&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA2seT95rYAhWGmLQKHcjYCRcQ6AEIRjAI#v=onepage&q=B%C3%B6hi%20juice&f=false

Champagne with added sugar at the end after dеgorgeage considered as microbial stable, but ABV of it is around 11% (almost twice higher than cider).

I'm looking more complex formula to be sure that cider with sugar added at the end is stable. Formula which will take in to account not only quantity of sugar and alcohol (like Delle Units), but also:

- CO2 pressure

- concentration of sulfur dioxide

- pH level

- malic acid

Delle Units taking into account only quantity of sugar and alcohol. Böhi principe consider only CO2 pressure.

Thanks.

четверг, 21 декабря 2017 г., 0:17:55 UTC+3 пользователь Claude Jolicoeur написал:

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le jeudi 21 décembre 2017 05:59:55 UTC-5, Dmitrii Tikhomirov a écrit :

I'm going to make champagne style cider (ABV 6%, SO2-150ppm, CO2 - 6 atm, and 15-20 g/l sugar added after dеgorgeage).

Böhi principe (method) proclaims that fruit juice is stable if stored unders 7 bar CO2 pressure at 15C.

https://books.google.ru/books?id=YDbtCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA77&lpg=PA77&dq=B%C3%B6hi+juice&source=bl&ots=KetHc-PrXm&sig=ik_4au2bwepqFYemAnMKe-sONo4&hl=ru&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjA2seT95rYAhWGmLQKHcjYCRcQ6AEIRjAI#v=onepage&q=B%C3%B6hi%20juice&f=false

Champagne with added sugar at the end after dеgorgeage considered as microbial stable, but ABV of it is around 11% (almost twice higher than cider).

Hello Dmitrii,

Unfortunately, Google won't let me see page 76, which seems to be the most important one...
However, whatever there is on this page, the stability of the Champagne is given by the riddling and disgorging process more than anything else.

Just imagine the following situation:
2 identical bottles of Champagne that got the same tirage for in-bottle fermentation
Bottle 1 goes through riddling, but for bottle 2 riddling is not done.
Then the 2 bottles are disgorged, sugar is added an they are corked.

Bottle 1 will be stable as all microorganisms were removed by the riddling-disgorgment process.
Bottle 2 will not be stable because the microorganisms were not removed. And this even if the pressure and all other factors are the same as in bottle 1.
 
And, to answer your specific question, no I am not aware of any such formula.

Claude

[Wayne Bush]

Claude, in your example, I assume you meant that only bottle 1 is disgorged, since presumably bottle 2 can't be disgorged if it wasn't riddled--correct?  But do I understand you correctly that riddling/disgorging effectively makes the cider microbiologically stable, and I can then safely add a sugar syrup to sweeten the cider without the risk of bottle bombs?  

I read carefully the section of your book on riddling and disgorging, and noted that you said that after disgorging the bottles may be topped up with a sweet syrup--but you didn't actually say that the cider would remain stable--so I wasn't sure if this was, for instance, a commercially viable approach, or a cider that would then need to be drunk in the next couple of weeks before the pressure built up too much.  I know the sugar dosing works for champagne, but I had assumed that was because of champagne's higher alcohol content.   Wayne

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le dimanche 11 février 2018 17:42:42 UTC-5, Wayne Bush a écrit :

Claude, in your example, I assume you meant that only bottle 1 is disgorged, since presumably bottle 2 can't be disgorged if it wasn't riddled--correct? 

I did mean both bottles were disgorged, but you are right in the sense that in bottle 2 there is nothing to disgorge... But you can still open it to add the sugar syrup.

 

But do I understand you correctly that riddling/disgorging effectively makes the cider microbiologically stable, and I can then safely add a sugar syrup to sweeten the cider without the risk of bottle bombs?  

That is what they do for Champagne. I haven't myself done it for cider though!
My understanding is that a well done riddling-disgorging is just as effective as sterile filtration for making it stable. So you should be able to add a sugar syrup and it won't referment. This dosage should however be sterile to insure you don't reintroduce new yeast.

 

I read carefully the section of your book on riddling and disgorging, and noted that you said that after disgorging the bottles may be topped up with a sweet syrup--but you didn't actually say that the cider would remain stable--so I wasn't sure if this was, for instance, a commercially viable approach, or a cider that would then need to be drunk in the next couple of weeks before the pressure built up too much.  I know the sugar dosing works for champagne, but I had assumed that was because of champagne's higher alcohol content.   Wayne

I guess if I wanted to do this commercially, I would do a few tests before!!!

Has anyone done it for cider?

Claude

 

 

[Gmail]

I’m not positive about the riddling, but I’m pretty sure that this disgorgement (/methode champenoise/traditionelle/ whatever term is now in vogue) is the way Eve’s Cidery out of the Finger Lakes make their sparkling ciders. I think they’re a bit higher in alcohol (around the 8.5% range?), but you can find all that and see more on their methods if you go to their website. I think they even have a vid of them doing the disgorging.

Matt Moser Miller

Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 11, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 12 février 2018 10:22:39 UTC-5, Matthew Moser Miller a écrit :

I’m not positive about the riddling, but I’m pretty sure that this disgorgement (/methode champenoise/traditionelle/ whatever term is now in vogue) is the way Eve’s Cidery out of the Finger Lakes make their sparkling ciders. I think they’re a bit higher in alcohol (around the 8.5% range?), but you can find all that and see more on their methods if you go to their website. I think they even have a vid of them doing the disgorging.

Yes, Autumn at Eve's does it with Traditional method, à la volée. However as far as I know, her ciders are dry...

There is Michel Jodoin who does some medium ciders with this method. He has a super modern bottling line with automatic disgorging in a sterile environment. Not the sort of equipment we are likely to see in a small craft cidery (Michel's production is well above half a million liters)... Since he is pretty much the only to have this in Quebec, he does provide the service to a couple of other cideries.

I'd be curious to know if someone has succeeded making it medium and stable with only a basic setup like at Eve's.

Claude

[Matthew Moser Miller]

They list a couple ranging between off-dry and medium (3.4% and 4.3% RS, links below), but it looks like in both cases it was an oddity of the fruit/ferment. Still, the Rustica looks like it's got a sweetened dosage rather than a stalled/pet-nat fermentation approach.

https://www.evescidery.com/ourcider/2015-rustica/

https://www.evescidery.com/ourcider/2016-darling-creek/

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[Wayne Bush]

Very interesting.   From Eve's website blog entry on "making bubbly cider":  "Most of our ciders are completely dry, but for the Darling Creek, where we return sugar to adjust the bottle to 1½%  sugar."    But in describing their bottling and riddling processes, the folks at Eve's also mention that they sterile filter the cider before it goes into the bottles for the in-bottle fermentation, and that upon disgorgement they sterile filter the still cider they use to top off the bottles.  But I wonder if the sterile filtration would really be necessary or have an impact?  It would seem to be unnecessary upon bottling unless you were trying to have ultra strict control over any esters produced along with the bubbles during the in-bottle fermentation.  Also wonder whether the sterile filtering of the topping up cider would be effective unless the topping up is somehow performed in a sterile environment, which wouldn't seem to be possible in a disgorgement/top up process.  

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[si...@theciderfactorie.co.nz]

Hi all

I've had some success with this method, with the dosage consisting of sugar syrup and so2. Haven't had any explosions yet but tend to use the less than perfect disgorged bottles for tasters. Alcohol range between 6-7.

Simon.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I didn't know they had sterile filtration at Eve's... I guess the business is going well if they have been able to invest in this!
This being said, I don't see much point in sterile filtration prior to bottling. The only thing is if they want to make sure the yeast used for the main fermentation is all gone because they want another strain for the prise de mousse. They would then add more yeast with the sugar in the tirage. Maybe also it would be because they want to make sure lactic acid bacterias are eliminated?
Sterile filtering the topping-up cider does however makes sense to me. Personally, if I did it, I would pasteurise the dosage and the topping-up cider and make sure the disgorgment is done in a well sanitised area.
Claude

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Looking at some of my notes, I see that Domaine Cartier-Potelle here in Quebec does a Méthode traditionnelle with 15 g/L residual sugar. He adds ice cider for the dosage. He does the disgorging with this machine (capacity 150 bottles per hour):
http://www.baridaenologica.com/it/4-atlas-m-lavorazioni-per-il-metodo-classico
which is not in a fully sterile environment. He does leave the cider on its lees for 2 years before riddling and disgorging...
Claude

[Wayne Bush]

So it sounds like it is possible to have a stable sweet sparkling cider by using riddling/disgorgement/top-up under certain circumstances.  Of course, I guess one could riddle/disgorge/top-up and then pasteurize to be sure!  Maybe my next question should be asked in a new strain, but can you pasteurize a bottle with a cork/wire bail on it rather than a crown cap?

[luis.ga...@gmail.com]

I would also wonder if you can safely pasteurize a bottle with a champagne level of carbonation...

Louis

[Martin Rellstab]

You might be able to calculate the amount of syrup to add and stay within the safety margin of the bottles.

Assuming you use heavy weight champagne bottles with a rating of 7 bar:

Tirage fill the bottles with about 18g Sugar / Lt. This would probably give you about 4.5 - 5 bar pressure. Now when you disgorge you'll lose some head pressure together with about 30-50ml of cider. i.e you might end up with about 4 bar bottle pressure. Now you could add up to about 12g syrup and in the case of a re-fermentation you would probably still be within the safety margin of the bottle. I haven't calculated this properly - just an idea.

Martin