How to sweeten a cider... with sucralose

[JezH]

Hi all,

There is a lot of chat around social media (etc.) about the over sweetening of commercially available cider. I have to admit I think this is a real quality issue; yes sweetening can hide poorly made cider but I suspect it also ruins good cider too!

My feelings about sweetening with sugar or juice have been posted on here before... essentially following SG's set by the likes of Bth and West as a guideline for dry, medium and sweet. However, there isn't much about sweetening on here for artificial sweeteners. So why not have a discussion and work out what best practice/general thinking about sweetening is.

I have done a bit of experimentation with sugar vs. sweetener to try and match them in flavour and taste. My sweetener of choice is sucralose as I think its less intrusive than the other options and doesn't need pasteurisation or micro filtration as with juice or sugar (to be fair, I have never found a sweetening that I am 100% happy with yet!) Anyway, I have a pot of sucralose from Vigo. It doesn't say anything more than 'Sucralose - 100g' so I guess it is simply pure sucralose. As it is all done in ounces (for me) I have to start by diluting the sucralose - scales tend to work in grams. So, I dilute 5g in 500ml of boiled/cooled water (OK, 1g for 100ml is the same).

I know there are some who sweeten a whole IBC or tank - I do it by the box because I can tailor it to each cider. I have no idea if sweetening this way works on a large scale (though I would have concerns that it was sweetening properly). So, this is what I do (per 20 litres)

Medium Dry - 10oz
Medium - 20oz
Sweet - 30oz

The sweeter the cider ends up, the longer I leave the box before delivering it (I find sucralose takes a while to settle and blend with the cider.

So - what do other people do? This isn't definitive, but as I have done a bit of experimentation am happy to share my own findings.

All the best

Jez

[Andrew Lea]

Can you check those figures for us Jez? (And it would be _really_
helpful if you could work in metric throughout, instead of mixing metric
and Imperial.).

I calculate that your medium dry is at 142 ppm sucralose. Is it really
that high?

Andrew

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near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Andrew Lea]

I produced a little table back in 2010. You'll find it here
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/cider-workshop/3ncXR7vSh3E/SgiTr8GThMEJ.
You also need to be aware of the legal limits on sucrose addition to
cider. That's why you _need_ to know your concentration in mg/l (ppm)

Andrew

On 05/05/2014 22:46, Andrew Lea wrote:
> Can you check those figures for us Jez? (And it would be _really_
> helpful if you could work in metric throughout, instead of mixing metric
> and Imperial.).
>
> I calculate that your medium dry is at 142 ppm sucralose. Is it really
> that high?
>
> Andrew

[Andrew Lea]

Whoops typo! 'sucralose' of course, not 'sucrose'!

Getting late here....

Andrew

[Jez Howat]

Andrew,

Will work it out, but it has been 10ml of a 1g/100ml solution in 20 litres... Which would be 100mg (I think) for the 20 litres and therefore 5mg per litre.

Not sure how to work that back to ppm but will google it;-)

All the best

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

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[Jez Howat]

Looking at my table, I have confused oz and ml (of the solution) - so that isn't going to help anyone!!

Sorry!! Have I ever said that I am not the best scientist ever:-)

All the best

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

[Andrew Lea]

On 05/05/2014 23:09, Jez Howat wrote:
> Andrew,
>
> Will work it out, but it has been 10ml of a 1g/100ml solution in 20 litres...

Jez, in your first post you wrote 10 ounces!

That is not the same as 10 ml!

Which is it please?

Andrew

[JezH]

Yeah - 10/10 for messing that original post up!!!

It is:

1g/100ml solution.

Med Dry = 10ml
Med = 20ml
Sweet = 30ml

Does that sound better? I did search but missed the discussion back in 2010... perhaps should have just left it there!!!

Jez

[Andrew Lea]

OK let's start again!

You have a 1% stock solution. That is 10,000 mg/L (ppm).

Now you are diluting that 10 ml to 20 litres or 2000 times.

So your 10,000 ppm stock becomes 5 ppm (mg/l) in the finished product.
Just as you said. That's much more realistic.

Actually looks like my 2010 table is way out of line for suggested
levels. But your data is based on real life not desk studies so it's a
better starting point!

Andrew

[Jez Howat]

Aha . Yes - thanks Andrew for taking it that extra step (I am still confused about ppm vs mg:-)

To be fair, that is erring on the dry side - but not by much. And it depends on the cider itself too. Tasting a style to work out what it will bear in sweetening is critical.

So you could say 10 - 15ml is medium dry, depending on the base cider. I do wonder what quantity people are using sometimes - and as I said before, I have no idea if simply chucking Sucralose into an IBC will distribute it well enough.

All the best

Jez

[Paul]

I now make all my cider in 5 gallon barrels once it is completely finished I add a scant 1/4 teaspoon of pure sucralose.  This produces a cider that most tasters appear to like!  This is my non-technical approach!!

> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] How to sweeten a cider... with sucralose
> From: jez....@btinternet.com
> Date: Mon, 5 May 2014 23:35:38 +0100
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Cheshire Matt]

Doesn't help in mg to ppm that you're also getting confused with your middle solution step - eg the 10-15ml.

ppm is amount of sucralose in the volume you're dosing. mg is weight of sucralose. 10ml is volume of your stock solution.

So you have 1g dissolved in 100ml. You use 10ml of this to add to a volume of cider. What you're *actually* adding is 0.1g of sucralose to whatever volume of cider = 0.0001kg (0.1/1000)

If added to 10L then that's 0.00001kg in 1litre (0.0001/10) Multiply that by 1,000,000 to get how many parts that is per million, 10ppm in this instance.

ppm useful as ball park, but each cider requires tasting/testing first to get appropriate amount. Once you know that, then you can start using practical easy rules of thumb in dosage - the 10-15ml in your chosen stock solution.

As for mixing in larger containers - same issue with sulphiting, surely? Add in parts as container fills? Use small pump with hose to distribute 10litres of solution throughout container (that's appropriate dose weight added to 10litres drawn off cider, so not diluting juice with water). Use long stainless stirrer. Anything's possible with bit of ingenuity.

[Jez Howat]

Matt,

I think you may have misread what I said; I use 10ml but prefer the drier side of medium dry. Hence the 10-15 ml.

Jez

Sent from my iPhone

[Jez Howat]

As for the mixing in large volumes, I am trying to figure out why some label their cider as medium dry (etc) when it turns out to be sweet or very sweet. Perhaps it is that they are just using far too much.

All the best

Jez

[Cheshire Matt]

My point is actually that 10-15ml is irrelevant. Another person could
add 5ml. Or 20ml. And end up with same level of sweetness. It's the
strength of stock solution, ergo how many grams of sucralose you're
actually adding to the cider.

As for makers saying one thing, but it tasting another - yes, could be
incompetence, could be unable to mix, could be not tasting, could be not
actually having the experience of a lot of real ciders to actually know
what 1008, 1015, 1025 etc tastes like.

[skidbro...@tiscali.co.uk]

Hello 

I have only used sucralose for two seasons. I have used it on fully dry cider at about 12g per 500 litre filling tank. The cider has been "badged" as medium sweet but is not syrupy sweet like Thatcher's gold and the like. Because punters expect medium sweet to be more sweet I have just altered the labels to read "medium" ie. could be medium sweet or medium dry and I am hoping that this will ally any remaining complainants.

I have no intention of producing a sweet sweet cider. 

Regards to all.

Guy

[Jez Howat]

Matt,

That's why I said '1g/100ml' - the 10 ml is useless without the stock solution quantities:-)

Guy, 5g per 500 litres works back to the same as what I would use for medium (1g per 100 litres; 0.2g per 20 litres...) It is good to see the figures equate!!

All the best

[J.B.Worcester UK]

     Dear All - I used be totally confused by parts per million until I realised that the standard IBC [1000 litres] = 1 million ml    - therefore 200ml in a tank = 200ppm for instance. Once you know that, it is easy to work out the doses for the common smaller volumes we use in the cider world and be confident. I DO hope I've got this right - but have no doubt the brains in this group will soon put me right or confirm it for me                 Wassail   J.B.

[Alasdair Keddie]

In our experiments, we found 0.25g of sucralose to a 20L box made for a nice medium dry.

Having said that, i wish it was easier to create a more "natural" sweetness.  

We have a lovely batch at the moment which is still at 1.010 gravity.  The net effect is a less strong (5%) cider with lovely natural sweetness.  However, the only route open to us if we want to preserve that natural sweetness is pasteurisation.  It's a bit of a conundrum..

[David Llewellyn]

Matt wrote:
" .....As for makers saying one thing, but it tasting another - yes, could

be incompetence, could be unable to mix, could be not tasting, could be not
actually having the experience of a lot of real ciders to actually know
what 1008, 1015, 1025 etc tastes like."

In my opinion there's also an issue among consumers of "it's sophisticated
to drink 'dry'", so if there are options to choose between ciders labelled
sweet or dry (or medium dry), the consumer might tend to choose the
dry/medium dry. They can only do this however if the 'dry' is sweet enough,
because most of them cannot actually handle something truly dry! So whether
they wish to be seen by others to drink 'dry', or whether they wish to
console themselves that they are sophisticated enough to drink 'dry', both
purposes are served by the cidermaker (same applies to wine) tayloring his
'dry' to be actually considerably sweeter than a truly dry drink! Then both
parties are happy - the cidermaker sells more cider, and the consumer thinks
he/she is sophisticated!!

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[Cheshire Matt]

Well, I was thinking of going on to say that...! Someone did set that
theory out to me in the last few weeks - that "dry" is seen as "premium"
and "the one to be seen drinking". Most odd how the consumer mind works!!

[Philip]

How true. As a general rule I find that the following works: Sweet means very sweet. Medium sweet is sweet, medium dry means medium sweet and dry is a medium dry. As for dry, well that's 'off' or un- drinkable!
Not true of course but taste is about what you are used to and what you expect and as far as I am aware there is no understandable agreed definition. Calling Stronbow a 'dry' cider doesn't help.

Phil

Sent from my iPad

[Paul]

James,

You asked where I am based, about 5 miles west of Stratford-upon-Avon.

Cheers
Paul

> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] How to sweeten a cider... with sucralose

> From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Date: Wed, 7 May 2014 18:00:32 +0100
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Orchard eye]

Hi guys

I'm about to sweeten some cider with Sucralose. Sainsbury's seem to sell it in this format, 

'Sainsbury's Sucralose Granulated Sweetener 75g'

 I presume that I will need to dissolve the granules in warm water first ?

I've been advised that around 1.2 g/ per 20 litres is a good amount for a medium cider (for bag in a box) . Does that sound about right ?

thanks for any help

Neil

[Vince Wakefield]

I suspect the 1.2g recommendation is based on 100% sucralose not on a shop bought table sweetener, best to try it on 1L first and then scale it up.

 

Vince

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[NEIL PHILLIPS]

ah, ok, thanks Vince

do brewing shops generally sell 100% Sucralose ?

Neil

 

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[Vince Wakefield]

Here is one option

 

https://www.amazon.co.uk/BULK-POWDERS-Sucralose-100-g/dp/B00HF63M5M

 

Vigo also sell it as well as other cider/beer home brew type places

 

Vince

[NEIL PHILLIPS]

Thanks Vince

that is really helpful,

Neil

Neil

 

Neil Phillips  Photo and Film  07885 214291     http://www.neilphillipsphotography.co.uk

[Andrew Lea]

The normal recommendation for pure sucralose is around 20 to 30 ppm for a slightly sweet cider (see my book). That’s 20 -30 mg/litre. 

If you scale that up for 20 litres, you get 400 - 600 mg. 1.2 grams is 2 to 3 times higher so I think that would be really quite sweet. In any case these are very small amounts to weigh out without a laboratory balance. The normal way to do this therefore would be to make a stock solution and dispense by volume. 

If you use a commercial sucralose powder from a supermarket it is already ‘cut’ with inert maltodextrin so that 1 teaspoon of powder has the sweetening power of 1 teaspoon of sugar. Hence you use proportionately much more. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 14 Feb 2018, at 16:33, Vince Wakefield <vi...@ruttslanecider.co.uk> wrote:

I suspect the 1.2g recommendation is based on 100% sucralose not on a shop bought table sweetener, best to try it on 1L first and then scale it up.

 

Vince

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Orchard eye
Sent: 14 February 2018 16:25
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: How to sweeten a cider... with sucralose

 

Hi guys

 

I'm about to sweeten some cider with Sucralose. Sainsbury's seem to sell it in this format, 

'Sainsbury's Sucralose Granulated Sweetener 75g'

 

 I presume that I will need to dissolve the granules in warm water first ?

 

I've been advised that around 1.2 g/ per 20 litres is a good amount for a medium cider (for bag in a box) . Does that sound about right ?

 

thanks for any help

 

Neil

--  

[Tom Bell]

I have been experimenting with sucrolose in cider on my friends and family for the last two years.  I use Splenda® (“No Calorie Sweetener Granular”), which contains 1.10% sucralose, 1.08% glucose, 4.23% moisture and 93.59% maltodextrin.  My "guinea pigs" have different sensitivities to the aftertaste.  I found that at 0.5 g/l only I am able to detect it but that is because I know it is there.  When I use it at higher concentrations, some people start to pick up the taste.  At 1 g/l, nearly everyone picks up the aftertaste.

I wonder now if the total acid has a bearing on that taste threshold.