[Cider Workshop] Plastic Barrels?
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from Heather
May 24, 2010, 3:08:56 PM5/24/10
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So I'm gearing up for my first crush and press this fall. I got my plans for the grinder and I got my jack for the press. Next question is, how do I store the juice turning cider?
While I'm not keen on plastic, it seems like the most cost effective route to go at the moment (read: I'm young and broke, and this is cheap). On page 159 of Ben Watson's book, he says to use high-density polyethylene (HDPE) barrels. He warns that they come in different thicknesses, so he suggests getting the 1/4 inch instead of the blue 1/8 inch.
I found someone locally who sells used 55 gallon barrels - http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/for/1751904572.html. I talked to him, and he doesn't know the thickness, just that they are HDPE #2, but says they previously contained, "Sake (Japanese Liquor) or Han Marin Sauce (Japanese sweet sauce). I had some that had Burgundy wine in them, but a guy bought all of them yesterday. They were white in color."I know from having a rain barrel that was made from a barrel that had sesame seed oil in it to stay away from the sauces, as they cause the barrel to smell.
Anyway, I want to know...
Heather
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-- While I'm not keen on plastic, it seems like the most cost effective route to go at the moment (read: I'm young and broke, and this is cheap). On page 159 of Ben Watson's book, he says to use high-density polyethylene (HDPE) barrels. He warns that they come in different thicknesses, so he suggests getting the 1/4 inch instead of the blue 1/8 inch.
I found someone locally who sells used 55 gallon barrels - http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/for/1751904572.html. I talked to him, and he doesn't know the thickness, just that they are HDPE #2, but says they previously contained, "Sake (Japanese Liquor) or Han Marin Sauce (Japanese sweet sauce). I had some that had Burgundy wine in them, but a guy bought all of them yesterday. They were white in color."I know from having a rain barrel that was made from a barrel that had sesame seed oil in it to stay away from the sauces, as they cause the barrel to smell.
Anyway, I want to know...
- other people experiences using plastic barrels and their thoughts
- what do you think about purchasing these barrels?
Heather
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Andrew Lea
May 24, 2010, 4:22:58 PM5/24/10
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On 24/05/2010 20:08, from Heather wrote:
> So I'm gearing up for my first crush and press this fall. I got my plans
> for the grinder and I got my jack for the press. Next question is, how
> do I store the juice turning cider?
>
> While I'm not keen on plastic, it seems like the most cost effective
> route to go at the moment (read: I'm young and broke, and this is
> cheap). On page 159 of Ben Watson's book, he says to use high-density
> polyethylene (HDPE) barrels. He warns that they come in different
> thicknesses, so he suggests getting the 1/4 inch instead of the blue 1/8
> inch.
Three concepts to take on board:
> So I'm gearing up for my first crush and press this fall. I got my plans
> for the grinder and I got my jack for the press. Next question is, how
> do I store the juice turning cider?
>
> While I'm not keen on plastic, it seems like the most cost effective
> route to go at the moment (read: I'm young and broke, and this is
> cheap). On page 159 of Ben Watson's book, he says to use high-density
> polyethylene (HDPE) barrels. He warns that they come in different
> thicknesses, so he suggests getting the 1/4 inch instead of the blue 1/8
> inch.
1. 'Plastic' is not a useful term. Covers loads of different stuff. What
you need, as you say, is food grade HDPE (high density polythene). Such
containers which have already contained food should be fine (but see below).
2. The thinner the walls, the greater the oxygen permeability. This does
not matter much for fermentation, but for later storage of finished
cider, the thicker the better. Otherwise air can diffuse in through the
porous HDPE and age the cider prematurely.
3. HDPE is very lipophilic / hydrophobic. This means it clings like a
leach to oil-based or non-polar flavours (which many are). In fact they
work their way so successfully into the HDPE that they become
irretrievably absorbed. Here, where many ex-citrus concentrate HDPE
drums are or were available, many cidermakers have found this to their
cost. The citrus oils cannot be rinsed out but they leach continuously
into the product. Lemony cider is not nice! Sesame cider could be even
nastier! So only accept tanks which have contained completely
flavour-neutral or wine-like materials. Sake sounds OK. Apple or grape
juice conc are OK. I don't know the sauce you mention but I would be
very suspicious of it, especially if it has a strong and distinctive
flavour from herbs and spices (eg aniseed, clove, basil etc). If you can
possibly get to inspect and smell the barrels before you buy, then do.
Or be sure you can send them back for a refund if they don't smell good.
Andrew
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Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
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John C. Campbell III
May 24, 2010, 4:43:17 PM5/24/10
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I have a suggestion; I have used 15 gallon brewers yeast barrels (roughly 15" diameter by 38" high I think ... with success for many years. Local homebrew shop
http://www.annapolishomebrew.com.
buys in bulk (liquid Canadian yeast) and sells it off in drip and drabs to would be beer makers. When the barrels are empty they sell them for a few U.S. dollars. (just talked to the owner he will ship, Continental U.S.) I clean them repeatedly and use them for primary fermentation chambers. After which I move to 15 gal. (U.S.) glass demijons for the rest of the cycle.
jccampb--
"there would be no world overpopulation problem if it took brains to breathe." Eric Walker
" Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.'"Sir Winston Churchill,
'There is no such thing as an underestimate of average intelligence' -Henry Adams
"competition is the lowest form of human interaction" Dr. W. Edwards Deming
"Cuimhnich air na daoine o'n d'thaining thu."
http://www.annapolishomebrew.com.
buys in bulk (liquid Canadian yeast) and sells it off in drip and drabs to would be beer makers. When the barrels are empty they sell them for a few U.S. dollars. (just talked to the owner he will ship, Continental U.S.) I clean them repeatedly and use them for primary fermentation chambers. After which I move to 15 gal. (U.S.) glass demijons for the rest of the cycle.
jccampb
"there would be no world overpopulation problem if it took brains to breathe." Eric Walker
" Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.'"Sir Winston Churchill,
'There is no such thing as an underestimate of average intelligence' -Henry Adams
"competition is the lowest form of human interaction" Dr. W. Edwards Deming
"Cuimhnich air na daoine o'n d'thaining thu."
from Heather
May 24, 2010, 4:46:12 PM5/24/10
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Ah, yes, these barrels I pointed out are less than 15 miles away, so I would be able to go there and pick on out myself, but that is a good reminder and good info for others who might be interested in this topic as well.
I made a rain barrel out of a former sesame oil container. The idea is to collect water off of my roof and then water the lawn. Due to the roofing and birds, the water can't be used on edible vegetation. Thing was, you could tell that barrel had sesame oil in it even though it was cleaned, so I completely believe about being lipophilic and having sesame cider.
Are there ways to tell the thickness if the lids don't come off? Or would it be better to do something like bottle early if paranoid about aging in them? I tried hunting around online to find out how thick a HDPE #2 was, but I didn't find anything.
Heather
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:22:58 +0100
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Plastic Barrels?
I made a rain barrel out of a former sesame oil container. The idea is to collect water off of my roof and then water the lawn. Due to the roofing and birds, the water can't be used on edible vegetation. Thing was, you could tell that barrel had sesame oil in it even though it was cleaned, so I completely believe about being lipophilic and having sesame cider.
Are there ways to tell the thickness if the lids don't come off? Or would it be better to do something like bottle early if paranoid about aging in them? I tried hunting around online to find out how thick a HDPE #2 was, but I didn't find anything.
Heather
> Date: Mon, 24 May 2010 21:22:58 +0100
> From: y...@cider.org.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Plastic Barrels?
The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with Hotmail. Get busy.
dave
May 24, 2010, 7:43:50 PM5/24/10
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I would avoid anything that had contained sesame.
Some folk are allergic to it, myself being one of them. I never used
to be, but nowadays I can't even eat a BigMac without an allergic
reaction from the seeds on the bun. I think a glass of cider laced
with sesame would probably see me off!
Some folk are allergic to it, myself being one of them. I never used
to be, but nowadays I can't even eat a BigMac without an allergic
reaction from the seeds on the bun. I think a glass of cider laced
with sesame would probably see me off!
Crab & Winkle
Sep 26, 2016, 8:32:18 PM9/26/16
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Has anyone had experience with used IBCs that previously contained sunflower oil?
David
Sep 27, 2016, 4:00:12 PM9/27/16
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I used one for my juice but it only holds it over night until bottling the next day.
Needs steam cleaning to get all the oil out but other than that no problems. Have one that contained mustard, that one stinks to high heaven even a couple of years later but never any taint of the juice.
Vince Wakefield
Sep 27, 2016, 4:11:34 PM9/27/16
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If you add caustic soda and water you will make soap, should clean out ok. As long as it was unused oil, if it has been used for frying you can get an off flavour.
Vince
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Nat West
Sep 27, 2016, 5:02:58 PM9/27/16
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Broadly speaking, polyethylene is lipophilic and hydrophobic. Oils can permeate the HDPE plastic used in IBCs. Yes you can get the oils out, per these and other cleaning recommendations, but any scented oils can stick around for a long time. Sunflower is low scent though, but YMMV.
On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 1:11 PM, Vince Wakefield <vi...@ruttslanecider.co.uk> wrote:
If you add caustic soda and water you will make soap, should clean out ok. As long as it was unused oil, if it has been used for frying you can get an off flavour.
Vince
From: cider-workshop@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-workshop@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of David
Sent: 27 September 2016 21:00
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Plastic Barrels?
I used one for my juice but it only holds it over night until bottling the next day.
Needs steam cleaning to get all the oil out but other than that no problems. Have one that contained mustard, that one stinks to high heaven even a couple of years later but never any taint of the juice.
On Tuesday, September 27, 2016 at 1:32:18 AM UTC+1, Crab & Winkle wrote:Has anyone had experience with used IBCs that previously contained sunflower oil?
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Andrew Lea
Sep 27, 2016, 5:16:02 PM9/27/16
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The major potential problem is not the native oil, but the unpleasant aldehydes produced from double bond oxidation in unsaturated oils. But if the oil is relatively unoxidised and the IBCs don't smell rancid or like putty, they're probably safe to use. The oil may stay in the polythene for years as Nat says and last many cycles of fermentations. People use IBCs which have contained olive oil and have no problem with them for cider. Sunflower oil like olive oil is monounsaturated and hence not excessively prone to rancidity.
A steam out and caustic wash would be wise though.
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Erik Homenick
Sep 27, 2016, 9:02:50 PM9/27/16
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Thank you gentlemen. Based on your helpful advice, I have decided to buy new ones rather than risk the chance of an off cider or aroma.
I'd also like to mention that it was really cool to see a reply from Nat West and Andrew Lea- I respect you two very much and we're all very lucky to have your sage advice on this forum- thank you!
All the best- happy pressing!
Erik
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Nat West
Sep 27, 2016, 10:02:14 PM9/27/16
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On Tue, Sep 27, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Erik Homenick <ehom...@gmail.com> wrote:
I'd also like to mention that it was really cool to see a reply from Nat West and Andrew Lea- I respect you two very much and we're all very lucky to have your sage advice on this forum- thank you!
Do not confuse my oddball practical experience with the factual knowledge of Andrew. If he ever contradicts something I say, you would be wise to listen to him and throw me under a bus. Historical digging of this and other forums shows I’m an absolute newbie compared to Mr Lea.
Erik Homenick
Sep 28, 2016, 7:42:03 AM9/28/16
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Haha - give yourself some credit! But no confusion Nat - I always defer to Mr. Lea :)
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Andrew Lea
Sep 28, 2016, 7:56:37 AM9/28/16
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On 28/09/2016 12:41, Erik Homenick wrote:
> Haha - give yourself some credit! But no confusion Nat - I always defer
> to Mr. Lea :)
It's horses for courses isn't it? I'm good at the back-room tecchie
> Haha - give yourself some credit! But no confusion Nat - I always defer
> to Mr. Lea :)
stuff while Nat is good at innovation and making things happen.
Our skills are complementary, I'd like to think! Both have a role :-)
Andrew
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