Referment of cider

[T Bart]

I have about 500L litres of wild fermented  desert fruit from last year  in an oxygen barrier bag that has suddenly has taken on a rotten egg smell .  I am going to referment to try and save it and was thinking of adding some grape juice and skins to it  .  Does anyone has any experience with this or tried fermenting apple and grape juice together ?

Thanks 

[Howard Chambers]

Hi

Some of our cider went eggy last year, we cured it by swirling a copper bar in it for a few minutes.

This cleared the smell. I'm sure the more experienced cider makers will be able to tell you the science behind it. It's was something we found on t'internet. 

On Wed, 30 Sep 2020, 07:02 T Bart, <tbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have about 500L litres of wild fermented  desert fruit from last year  in an oxygen barrier bag that has suddenly has taken on a rotten egg smell .  I am going to referment to try and save it and was thinking of adding some grape juice and skins to it  .  Does anyone has any experience with this or tried fermenting apple and grape juice together ?

Thanks 

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[DICK KIRK]

I hate to say it, but that sounds awful. I find, like in my garden, when a tree or plank gets injured or sick, it usually is not worth trying to nurse to along.Once injured, they are vulnerable to attacks from things that would not attack a healthy tree. Same with cider. Feed the compost heap!

Dick

On Sep 29, 2020, at 3:30 PM, T Bart <tbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

I have about 500L litres of wild fermented  desert fruit from last year  in an oxygen barrier bag that has suddenly has taken on a rotten egg smell .  I am going to referment to try and save it and was thinking of adding some grape juice and skins to it  .  Does anyone has any experience with this or tried fermenting apple and grape juice together ?

Thanks 

[T Bart]

Thank Dick, I’m going to try and save before I put it out of its misery. Hopefully it works 🙂

Sent from my iPad

> On Sep 30, 2020, at 4:30 PM, DICK KIRK <happyh...@gmail.com> wrote:
>

[T Bart]

Thanks, I will give that a try !

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 30, 2020, at 12:41 AM, Howard Chambers <howardch...@gmail.com> wrote:



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[Andrew Lea]

Please don’t use a copper bar. You will have no idea of how much copper you are adding. This could easily encourage oxidative darkening of the cider.  See the extract from my book below. This teaches you how to add a measured dose of copper sulphate for sulphite removal. There is also much discussion of this topic in the group archives which i suggest you read. 

“If your cider smells of rotten eggs, drains or is generally ‘unclean’ then it may have a sulphur taint. Unfortunately most volatile sulphur compounds in fermented beverages are odour-active at very low levels, even parts per trillion in some cases, so these can be very noticeable even when present in minute amounts. Many ciders do smell slightly sulphurous when in the course of active fermentation but this usually disappears quickly at the end of fermentation. If the smell does not disappear, excess hydrogen sulphide (H2S) or a related compound may be the cause. This can be tested by taking a small sample of the offending cider in a glass and dropping a brightened copper penny or a piece of copper wire into the sample. After ten minutes or so, its aroma should be assessed against an untreated control glass. If the offending aroma has disappeared or is reduced, it is possible to treat the bulk cider by the addition of copper (cupric) sulphate. This is a permitted practice for winemaking in the EU but only very small amounts of copper are used. (Excess copper can have adverse effects on both cider colour and flavour by encouraging unwanted oxidation as described later.) 

The addition required is one part per million which is an extremely small amount to measure. The best way to do this is by ‘serial dilution’. For instance a 1 per cent solution can be made up by dissolving 5g of copper sulphate (a flat level plastic teaspoon) in 500ml of water. Then 5ml of this solution (a level plastic teaspoon) can be dispensed into 50 litres of cider to give the required level. Wait a day to see how well it has worked; one (or exceptionally two) further teaspoons may be added if required. The copper combines with the hydrogen sulphide to form cupric sulphide which is insoluble. It is also possible to buy bentonite impregnated with copper salts (such as Kupzit) which does the same job but minimizes the amount of residual copper passing into the cider.

The chemistry of sulphur in wines and cider is exceedingly complex, and if disulphide compounds have been formed after some time in storage it may be necessary to ‘reduce’ them before copper treatment by the prior use of ascorbic acid (Vitamin C). A professional winemaking textbook should be consulted for further details. It has been claimed that sulphur taints were not so much of a problem in a previous era when brass or bronze (copper alloy) fittings were common on tanks and pipework, since the transient contact with the metal acted to remove them.!”

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 1 Oct 2020, at 06:22, T Bart <tbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks, I will give that a try !

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8475217D-92BC-4FF0-9A15-293B2ED0AD55%40gmail.com.

[Andrew Lea]

Sorry - typo - that should read sulphide removal. Sulphide, sulphite and sulphate are three completely different things. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 1 Oct 2020, at 07:34, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:



[T Bart]

Thank you .  I was not going to try a copper bar , I was going to re-ferment  as I was told that could work   But I’m very new to this so I could be wrong .   I appreciate the advice and will pick up your book , I just finished Claudes .

Tamra 

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 30, 2020, at 11:39 PM, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:

Sorry - typo - that should read sulphide removal. Sulphide, sulphite and sulphate are three completely different things. 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/4A1B520A-4B48-4B7A-B200-425BB468B572%40cider.org.uk.

[Andrew Lea]

Re-fermentation works for some things, but I’m not aware it works to remove H2S, except by simple venting / gas stripping. In any case, if this fault is only displaying a year on, it could well be disulphides rather than simple monosulphides. That’s another whole kettle of fish. I can understand using grape juice as a source of sugar, but I’m not clear why you’d want to complicate matters with grape skins. If it were me, and i wanted to do this as an experiment, I’d add the grape juice but also select a nice low H2S producing yeast to do the fermentation. You may also need to add more nutrients.  If you are in North America as i think you are, check out the ScottLabs Cider Handbook for their suggestions. 

Good luck.

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 1 Oct 2020, at 17:50, T Bart <tbar...@gmail.com> wrote:

Thank you .  I was not going to try a copper bar , I was going to re-ferment  as I was told that could work   But I’m very new to this so I could be wrong .   I appreciate the advice and will pick up your book , I just finished Claudes .

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/6AC7266B-88AD-47FB-8A3E-33E14670D803%40gmail.com.

[islandexpressi...@gmail.com]

There are a couple of things you'll want to look into if it's sulfur.  Reduless or what I'd recommend highly is Kupzit.  This stuff is rather amazing.  Scott labs sells it and it does the trick.  I've smelled some pretty afflicted cider come out clean AND it works within the hour if not in minutes.  Rack or filter within a couple of days.  I've tried referments and it made it worse if it's already been sitting.  You may have mercaptans and Kupzit removes those too.  Oh and it's so easy to mix and use.  Make sure to do a bench trials.

https://scottlabsltd.com/en-us/kupzit-1-kg-31--15135

[T Bart]

Thank you , that is a great tip and I appreciate your taking the time to help a newbie 😃 

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 4, 2020, at 11:19 PM, islandexpressi...@gmail.com <islandexpressi...@gmail.com> wrote:

There are a couple of things you'll want to look into if it's sulfur.  Reduless or what I'd recommend highly is Kupzit.  This stuff is rather amazing.  Scott labs sells it and it does the trick.  I've smelled some pretty afflicted cider come out clean AND it works within the hour if not in minutes.  Rack or filter within a couple of days.  I've tried referments and it made it worse if it's already been sitting.  You may have mercaptans and Kupzit removes those too.  Oh and it's so easy to mix and use.  Make sure to do a bench trials.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/9d63011c-8ece-4deb-a3b2-9320f4cd14ecn%40googlegroups.com.