Building Claude Jolicoeur's apple mill

[Steve Potter]

I've just finished building a grater mill, following Claude's advice in The New Cider Maker's Handbook, and I hope my experience might be helpful to anyone else contemplating doing the same.

Claude made his rotor from laminated wood, but he makes the point that it involves a lot of work, and he suggests that it might be easier to use HDPE.  I did that, and was pleased with the result, but I found that a one third horsepower motor, which would have been sufficient for a wooden rotor, wasn't powerful enough.  That's because HDPE is almost twice the specific gravity of seasoned softwood.  I ended up buying a 1 hp motor, which does the job nicely.

I would really recommend anyone thinking about making their own mill to follow the recommendations given in Claude's book.  YouTube is full of videos of mills that don't quite work properly, largely because the apples aren't drawn between the rotor and the stator, and they bounce around endlessly.  Claude's explanation of what he calls the wedge angle is the key to efficient performance, I'm sure.

Steve Potter

[Bob Luke]

Hi Steve-

Ha ha, we'd have to compare rotor weights!  I went the HDPE route with a 1/3 HP motor and didn't have a problem last year, my first with Claude's rig.  I didn't drop the apples in until the mill was running full and felt that the mass of the rotor helped to even out the process.  That said, while I was able to grind the apples as fast as I could get them in, it is possible to overload the mill. 

One time I was nearing the end of a basket and tipped it a bit too much.  A bunch of smallish crabs fell in all at once and clogged the throat.  When
that happened I had to get in there and clean everything out, since even a part of solid apple wedged in the throat was enough to keep the rotor from turning.  Learned my lesson and was more careful about the feed rate.  That's a situation where a more powerful motor might shine. 

And yes, as you said Claude's directions on the throat construction were perfect.  The mill just sucks those apples right down with minimal fuss!

/bob

---

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Thanks Bob and Steve for the positive comments on my design!
And yes, the wheel should be turning full speed before feeding the apples, otherwise the motor won't be powerful enough to start when some apples are engaged.
Adding a plate in the whopper with an aperture for one apple helps in preventing overloading - as Bob mentioned this may happen when many small hard apples fall simultaneously in the mill.

Claude

[Steve Potter]

Thanks for the comments, Claude and Bob.  I guess there are some other factors that will influence the torque achieved by the motor, such as the quality of the bearings (mine are very old) and how well the elements of the drive train are aligned.  To an extent I had anticipated Claude's thoughts about restricting the flow of apples into the mill; I slightly modified the design by replacing the hopper with a sorting table, which allows a final inspection of the apples before they fall through a fairly small hole, as shown in the photo. 

Thanks again, Claude.  Even with the cost of buying a new motor you saved me several hundred pounds.

Steve

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 1 septembre 2015 11:16:58 UTC-4, Steve Potter a écrit :

Thanks again, Claude.  Even with the cost of buying a new motor you saved me several hundred pounds.

My pleasure!!!
From the picture, this mill seems very well made! Congratulations.

[Tim Schiftner]

Hi Steve, 

Great looking grinder and I am hoping I can make something as nice!  I am putting together very something similar myself and I'm running into some materials issues related to the rotor, which you might be able to help with.  First, where did you source your HDPE drum?  I've been able to find up to 9 inch diameter by 1 foot rods but was hoping for something a little shorter and larger in diameter.  

The second question is what sort of flange are you using to attach the shaft to the rotor?  In Claude's book he states that he had his fabricated, is that what you did too?  It seems like a simple part but I haven't been able to find anything by poking around online.  I'm also worried about the rotor slipping.  Are the set screws the only things holding between the axle and drum?

Thanks for any info and keep on pressin'!

Tim

[Bob Luke]

Hi Tim:

Here's how I did it.  It is not as easy as it looks at first glance, but everything worked out fine.

I bought two stainless disks like this
5.95" Dia x 0.375" Long NEW 304 Stainless Steel Rod Round Bar Disk Disc
 
from these guys-
http://www.ebay.com/sch/discountmetalsales1/m.html?_nkw=&_armrs=1&_ipg=&_from=

then i bought four 12" x 12" x 1" pieces of HDPE from these guys

Industrial Plastic Supply
http://www.iplasticsupply.com/

I cut the HDPE squares into 12" rounds.  I don't have a bandsaw so I had to use a table scrollsaw and do them one at a time.  They circles were decent but still a bit rough.  I had a machine shop drill the stainless disks, countersink one side and tap the other for eight 14/20 oval head stainless screws. 

I picked up a couple of these
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000ILA7QS/ref=pe_385040_30332200_TE_item
and had a friend weld them to the disks to hold everything in place.

Once I had the rotor built, screwed on the disks and attached the shaft, but before I attached the teeth (brilliant on Claude's part to use hose clamp stainless!), I hooked it up to the motor on the table and ran it, carefully using a rasp to dress the surface.  I wish that I could have gotten 12" round to start, but I sourced it and the cost was prohibitive.  It's not really a stock item, or rather, nothing that you can readily find an odd piece of on eBay cheaply.

/bob

[77grundy]

Since we are talking scratters I thought I would put up some pictures of mine which was rebuilt this winter, just to show people some different ways of doing things! It too was partially based on Claude's (using stainless pipe collars, and the graduated stator thing in the hopper), but I modified the design to use mainly what I had lying around the garage, or could pick up real cheap. I put in prices so that readers can see how cheap these things can be built.

 

The rotor was made from the bottom part of some salvaged oak staircase spindles. I got 40 spindles for $5. The threaded shaft ($3) was screwed into cut sections of the oak, as I couldn’t drill straight enough through a whole piece, and the whole lot glued together to form a block. The shaft was already very tight on the block, but I put washers and lock nuts either side of the block and tests indicate that this is sufficient to stop any slipping/movement of the rotor.

 

I cut off as much of the corners as I could and then rigged it up to the motor ($5 from a garage sale) using ball bearings (x2 at $0.90) and pieces of steel strapping to mount the shaft. I used a rasp to smooth it down which worked surprisingly well! Drum was varnished, and then steel collars (maybe $6) attached as per Claude’s. The hopper has the stator built in also as per CJ. The pic below is part way through the hopper build, and I later put a piece of wood on the left hand side (you can see faint pencil marks) to deflect apples into the mouth of the stator.

 

Initial tests seem to be very good and it produces a pomace with mostly pea sized pieces with a few larger pieces coming through too. I might add a few more teeth at some point depending how this season goes. The apples do absolutely whizz through with none of the bouncing around which was a feature of its predecessor.

 

Dan

 

 

 

[Steve Potter]

Hi Tim.  I live in the UK, so I'm not sure whether this information will be of any help to you, but I got my HDPE rod from a company called Direct Plastics.

The flanges were made from stainless steel tubing welded to round ss base plates.  This is a very rural area (South West Wales) and we're lucky in having a scattering of small machine shops which mainly repair farm machinery, so I was able to get these fabricated.  Drilling stainless steel, for the screw holes, can be quite hard work and I found that it was worth investing in a cobalt drill bit with a slow drill speed, and cutting oil.  I'm surprised that you can't buy these flanges as stock parts: if anyone knows of a source it would be helpful to share the information.

I filed a small flat on the shaft where the set screw engages, and haven't had any problems with the rotor slipping.

Good luck with your project.

Steve

[Peter Ellis]

On 02/09/2015 11:50, Steve Potter wrote:
> I'm surprised that you can't buy these flanges as stock parts: if
> anyone knows of a source it would be helpful to share the information.

Completely off the wall, as I haven't seen the relevant part, but what
about yacht chandlers ? They do all sorts of stainless steel flanges.

Cheers

--
Peter Ellis

Porec Sales Office
Croatia Property Services

Selling in the new Tuscany!

Tel +385 (0) 91 400 3784

peter...@croatiapropertyservices.com
in...@croatiapropertyservices.com

http://www.croatiapropertyservices.com
http://croatiaproperty.proboards.com

[Peter Eveleigh]

Hello Moderators,
I wrote a reply to Tim's post below offering some help on his 2 questions below - and which has been removed / deleted. I would be very grateful to know why. I fully realise that as I make these mills for folk who want them, I  have to be scrupulously careful NOT to promote this in my response, so, am not aware of having broken any of the forum's rules. No reference to Youtube videos or websites; no offers to make one for anyone - just some advice on some of the issues raised. I thought this Group was about sharing experiences involving Cider & Cider making. I'm only sorry someone thinks not.

On Tuesday, September 1, 2015 at 5:38:12 PM UTC+1, Tim Schiftner wrote:

[Adam Chambers]

Has anyone found where to source a 12" (30cm)x 4i" (10cm) HDPE round stock for a decent price in North America? I am hoping to skip the manual labour involved with making a grinding cylinder. A local HDPE producer wants over $400CDN. Direct Plastics is right now my best option and I am willing to get it shipped from the UK if it is my only option.

Another question is all HDPE food grade?

Thanks

Adam

[Wes Cherry]

Is that 4" dia?   McMaster.com has it for ~$35

If 12" dia then a 12" square 4" sheet is $150.   Would need someone with a lathe to turn it down for you...

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[WV Mountaineer Jack]

http://www.happyvalleyranch.com/Drum-Assembly-Complete_p_43.html

You can order the drum just by itself, I would think this is a good place to start building your scratter around a premade rotor. WVMJ

[Bob Luke]

That's pretty cool, but won't a 5-1/2" diameter rotor require a lot more motor behind it?  Claude's 12-inch has a much greater mass and once it's going there's not much that can stop it, if you're not overly liberal with the feed.  The extra diameter helps too. A flatter angle means easier rolling, like a 29" mountain bike wheel vs a 26".

And the final thing is that you'd have to re-do the design on the cover box and throat to accommodate the smaller diameter, with the requisite trial and error, whereas if you use Claude's plan he's already done the work for you as shown in his blueprint.

/bob

---

Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2015 16:33:31 -0700
From: wvm...@gmail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Building Claude Jolicoeur's apple mill

http://www.happyvalleyranch.com/Drum-Assembly-Complete_p_43.html

You can order the drum just by itself, I would think this is a good place to start building your scratter around a premade rotor. WVMJ

[Dick Dunn]

It's not large enough--it's only 5.5" (14 cm) diameter. That's under half
the diameter of what Claude suggests. See the discussion of "wedge angle"
in Claude's book, p. 105.

I say that the diameter of the HVR drum is too small not only based on the
"theory", but also based on experience with the older HVR mill.

The HVR design attempts to work against the tendency to "roll" the apples
in two ways: by raised nibs on the stator (inside of the hopper), and by
relatively aggressive teeth. But on softer fruit, especially large, the
nibs are no use and the grabby teeth pull through large slabs at the edge
of the apple. The HVR mill grind varies from OK for just-right fruit to
very poor for fruit that doesn't suit the mill. Given that they want to
pair it with a basket press--which is inefficient to start with--a poor
milling really hurts.

The basic HVR design can be improved somewhat by closer tolerance between
the rotor and the exit from the stator...so you could benefit there a
-little- bit if you're building your own hopper.

Still, better to solve the core (ouch) problem and use a large enough
rotor.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[WV Mountaineer Jack]

I forgot to look at the diameter! WVMJ

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[Adam Chambers]

Good discussion on this. I have found out that Direct Plastics doesn't ship to Canada but I have friends in the UK that I hope can help me out to have my scratter ready for next year's harvest. 

The costs look similar for a locally sourced square blank of HDPE versus a round bit shipped from England. Is England the new China?

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Adam Chambers 
 

[Steve Potter]

I can answer one of your questions, Adam.  Not all HDPE is food grade.  Direct Plastics say that "HDPE Rod is often found in the food production environment as the natural grade is food compatible" which rather suggests that the coloured stuff isn't, despite the fact that it's often used for colour-coded chopping boards.

Steve

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 25 septembre 2015 06:41:54 UTC-4, Adam Chambers a écrit :

Good discussion on this. I have found out that Direct Plastics doesn't ship to Canada but I have friends in the UK that I hope can help me out to have my scratter ready for next year's harvest. 

The costs look similar for a locally sourced square blank of HDPE versus a round bit shipped from England. Is England the new China?

This is good to know.
Let us know how all this turns out.
When I wrote the book, I didn't really check for cost of these 12" diameter bars, but only that they existed. I never thought they could be so expensive...
If cost is prohibitive this would be sad, as their use would ease a lot on the fabrication of the mill.

Note that the OESCO mill rotor is also made of HDPE solid bar, but I think their rotor in only 8" diameter. The mill compensates by having a much more powerful motor, and it probably turns faster too.

I haven't tried it, but possibly the use of a 10" rotor would also work correctly while reducing cost. Naturally, the rest of the geometry would have to be adapted...

And by the way, I would be happy to get pictures from any who has done a mill from this design - I am starting a collection! I already downloaded a few that were posted on this forum.

Claude

[Bob Luke]

Claude, I am pulling mine out in a couple of weeks.  I will send you some pictures.

I want to thank you so much for what you have done for the community in putting out those designs.  Your book, as well as Andrew's, has been an invaluable help in getting me going!  You guys are the Gods of Cider!!

Cheers,
/bob

---

Date: Fri, 25 Sep 2015 09:01:26 -0700
From: cjol...@gmail.com

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Building Claude Jolicoeur's apple mill

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[Andrew Lea]

I'm afraid that is rather misleading and alarmist. It is true that native HDPE is pretty much inherently food safe as long as it is properly manufactured. However, it is perfectly possible to colour HDPE and other plastics with food safe colorants and to place them on the market. The often discussed "blue oak" barrels are a good example. 

To comply with legislation at least in the EU, all food grade plastics, coloured or not, need to have a Declaration of Compliance associated with them. Amongst other things this would include a statement of the colorant used and its toxicology and the food-simulation migration testing carried out on the 'masterbatch' prior to manufacture of the finished article. 

Some food safe plastics, coloured or not, carry a small 'wine glass' symbol but not all do. If you are concerned about this, ask your supplier to see the DoC for his product. 

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Andrew Lea]

>
> Some food safe plastics, coloured or not, carry a small 'wine glass' symbol but not all do. If you are concerned about this, ask your supplier to see the DoC for his product.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Food_safe_symbol

[Thomas Fehige]

You can use a rotor half the diameter of Claude's if your stator goes not only from 12 o'clock round to 3 o'clock but halfway round the rotor down to 6 o'clock. The pulp is then spat out horizontally and you'll need a channel to direct it downwards into your bucket.

To fix the drum on the shaft drill a 4mm hole perpendicular through the shaft (cobalt drill bit) and stick a 4mm rod through it. Drill the hole for the shaft through the drum and route a 4mm slot across the hole on one side of the drum. Put the drum on the shaft so that the 4mm rod fits in the slot. Fix the drum on the other side with that ring mentioned above (can't remember what you call it).

Cheers -- Thomas

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le vendredi 25 septembre 2015 13:06:47 UTC-4, Thomas Fehige a écrit :

You can use a rotor half the diameter of Claude's if your stator goes not only from 12 o'clock round to 3 o'clock but halfway round the rotor down to 6 o'clock. The pulp is then spat out horizontally and you'll need a channel to direct it downwards into your bucket.

Yes, generally speaking, the smaller the diameter or the rotor, the more angle the stator will have to go around it in order to maintain a small wedge angle that will ensure a good friction grip on the apples.

To fix the drum on the shaft drill a 4mm hole perpendicular through the shaft (cobalt drill bit) and stick a 4mm rod through it. Drill the hole for the shaft through the drum and route a 4mm slot across the hole on one side of the drum. Put the drum on the shaft so that the 4mm rod fits in the slot. Fix the drum on the other side with that ring mentioned above (can't remember what you call it).

This seems a very good suggestion! Would make the 2 side plates unnecessary. Thanks.

Claude