sausage flavored perry

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mannp...@gmail.com

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Apr 30, 2022, 2:54:01 PMApr 30
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Gabe Cook likes to jokingly mention the sausage flavored perry he once ended up with. Well I am currently encountering that flavor too. It's not what I want in my perry. Wondering if it ages out. And what circumstances contribute to it. 
Anybody experienced this as well?

-Patrick

Andrew Lea

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May 1, 2022, 7:51:36 AMMay 1
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I would guess at indole.  I have met it in commercial perries in the past.  See here from a book chapter of mine some years ago...

A nontraditional taint in ciders is that caused by indole. This compound is well known in meat products, particularly pork, where it can form a part of the so-called boar taint and is derived from tryptophan breakdown (Wilkins 1990). At very low levels it is also found in many flower aromas, and indeed it is often incorporated in soaps and perfumes for its floral attributes. At levels in excess of 200 parts per billion, however, its odor becomes increasingly faecal and unpleasant. Unpublished work in the author’s laboratory identified indole as a relatively widespread taint in ciders, which may derive from an odorless precursor or salt since it often appears and disappears from bottled products. Almost certainly it is not derived from tryptophan, since this amino acid is virtually lacking in apple juice, and in ciders no trace has been found of skatole (3-methyl indole) that would be a necessary intermediate. Current belief is that it is generated de novo by the yeast from inorganic nitrogen during its own synthesis of tryptophan, rather than its breakdown. The factors favoring the synthesis of indole appear to be a low juice content and a low yeast pitching rate, coupled with a fast fermentation stimulated by high temperature and the addition of simple inorganic nutrients such as ammonium phosphate. Under these conditions, the yeast vitamin requirements are not adequately met from endogenous sources, and a specific deficiency in pyridoxine (a known co-factor in transamination reactions) appears to be the immediate cause of indole formation. Industry sources suggest that indole formation can therefore be suppressed by the addition of pyridoxine to the juice at ca. 1 ppm.

Andrew

www.cider.org.uk

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On 30 Apr 2022, at 19:54, mannp...@gmail.com <mannp...@gmail.com> wrote:

Gabe Cook likes to jokingly mention the sausage flavored perry he once ended up with. Well I am currently encountering that flavor too. It's not what I want in my perry. Wondering if it ages out. And what circumstances contribute to it. 
Anybody experienced this as well?

-Patrick

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Ray Blockley

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May 1, 2022, 8:06:36 AMMay 1
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That's very interesting... Was sat with a few cider making & drinking friends recently, drinking a still draught (BiB) cider in a bar which had a distinct lingering after taste. 
We all agreed the closest we could match it to was "tinned tomatoes". It was very odd & did not "contribute positively" to the cider. 
As the cider had been pasteurised & sweetened with pasteurised apple juice, could this have brought this odd taint about? 

Forewarned is forearmed so to speak.

Thanks, Ray 

mannp...@gmail.com

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May 1, 2022, 1:58:20 PMMay 1
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Thanks for the pointers Andrew. 
The usual contributing factors don't apply in my case: it is a full juice batch, slowly fermented at medium to low temps, with reasonable pitch rate and addition of only a small amount of organic nutrient (Fermaid C). It was low nutrient fruit though, and a sluggish ferment (Biodiva). 

Which fermentation aids typically contain pyridoxine? 

Apparently indole may age out in 6-12 months, so I'll keep my fingers crossed.

AW

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May 2, 2022, 12:36:18 AMMay 2
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Patrick, Can you do a turkey-flavored one?  All jokes aside I think smoked salmon could actually work....

Pyridoxine is vitamin B, so you should be able to source that at various health food stores.  I wonder if you do a secondary fermentation with a healthy dose of vitamin B if that will alleviate the taint.  Whether or not you would want tryptophan in secondary is another interesting question.   

Ray - The tinned tomatoes things sounds like a Maillard reaction (non enzymatic browning).  It is a condensation between amines and carbonyl compounds like some sugars, especially upon heating.  Stewed tomatoes is a classic descriptor....I used to get it in industrial fermentation when certain sugar-containing biomasses where exposed to ammonium.  

Andrew Lea

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May 3, 2022, 7:24:16 AMMay 3
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Strangely enough, a key aroma compound in tinned tomatoes (and in some other canned vegetables) is dimethyl sulphide in the presence of other volatiles. DMS is also occasionally found in faulty ciders (from a microbial route) so I suppose it is possible that DMS was involved. On its own it tends to be reminiscent of cabbage  or asparagus. Otherwise, as AW mentioned, the Maillard reaction is a likely candidate and this can produce lingering cooked flavours which are also characteristic of over=pasteurised apple juice especially where ascorbic acid has not been used to protect the flavour. 

Re pyridoxine, yes this is also known as vitamin B6 so that is what a person should look for if wishing to add it to a primary fermentation. I suspect if indole has already been generated it will not be removed by a secondary fermentation since it is fairly stable. I’m not sure if it reliably ages out, but my recollection from many years ago is that it might disappear with time perhaps due to oxidation or salt formation. There is a recent paper on indole in perry which some may have seen https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31162672/

The presence of indole was just a suggestion from my own experience, but “meatiness” can originate from a number of other sources including sulphur compounds.  It’s often a hard one to crack, unfortunately. 

Andrew

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On 1 May 2022, at 13:07, Ray Blockley <raymond...@gmail.com> wrote:



Ray Blockley

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May 3, 2022, 7:33:07 AMMay 3
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Thank you Andrew. Much appreciated explanation of possible causes! 

Ray 

Gabe Cook

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May 10, 2022, 3:59:29 AMMay 10
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I ascribe the sausage nature of the perry to have derived from yeast autolysis. I had 50 litres of pear juice one year and fermented 25 litres 'wild' (partial dose so2) and 25 litres with a saison beer yeast.  I left them fermenting at my brother's house (many miles from where I live).  Upon my return 6 weeks later, the 'wild' perry was happily burbling through fermentation, but the saison perry had obviously finished a long time previously owing to its great clarity and nice, compacted lees.  Upon tasting, it was noticeably meaty!  I don't think cider sat on beer lees for too long is such a good idea! 

Love Lindholm

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Jun 11, 2022, 1:28:38 PMJun 11
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It could be 4-ethylguaiacol (4-EG) produced by Brettanomyces:
"4-EG are associated with descriptive expressions such as “bacon” or “smoked” (Suárez et al. 2007)"
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