Applejack
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Bethany Walker
Jan 21, 2019, 9:31:21 AM1/21/19
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So it's freezing now in my part of the world and I'm interested in trying to make some applejack via freeze distillation. Has anyone tried this and what's your opinion of the results? I've read some conflicting options online :-)
Matthew Moser Miller
Jan 21, 2019, 2:14:53 PM1/21/19
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I would recommend strongly against it for two reasons: first, because by doing post-fermentation concentration, you're also concentrating all the higher alcohols/methanol etc., just like a heat distillation. The difference: in heat distillation, you can separate those out (the "heads" and "tails" from the "heart") before consuming. Freeze distillation doesn't have that option.
Secondly: as it says in the name, freeze distillation is a form of distillation, which most governments take a hard line against without a license, and you just confessed your potential plan on the internet. So unless there's currently a cold snap in New Zealand (which I believe is the only country that has legal home distilling), I'd take a pass on this one. If you want a higher-ABV apple-derived drink, I'd suggest cryoconcentrating the juice before fermentation; do that, and you can end up with high alcohol levels but moderate/normal levels of the less pleasant non-ethanols.
Good luck (and stay warm),
Matt Moser Miller
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 9:31 AM Bethany Walker <bethany...@gmail.com> wrote:
So it's freezing now in my part of the world and I'm interested in trying to make some applejack via freeze distillation. Has anyone tried this and what's your opinion of the results? I've read some conflicting options online :-)
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Wes Cherry
Jan 21, 2019, 4:09:58 PM1/21/19
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I’ve never understood the concentrating higher alcohols argument against apple jack.
If I drink enough cider to get a certain inebriation how is that different from getting the same inebriation from apple jack?
I think the the heads/ethanol/blindness stuff comes from distillers drinking or selling the heads, in which case the relative quantity of toxic methanol and etc is increased.
Bethany Walker
Jan 21, 2019, 4:17:55 PM1/21/19
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My interest is curiosity more than anything else. I like cider and apple brandy, so it seems like I would enjoy something in between. I also so enjoy experimenting, unless it’s a complete waste of time and cider 😃
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Andrew Lea
Jan 21, 2019, 4:53:21 PM1/21/19
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Wes,
AFAIK it’s about differential toxicity. The toxicity / concentration response to higher alcohols and congeners is steeper than for ethanol (even though they are present at lower levels). So, for the same rise in overall concentration, the toxic effects of the congeners became more significant than for ethanol.
One of the issues involved is the way in which non-ethanol substances bind more tightly to the ethanol receptors than does ethanol itself. (This is somewhat analogous to the way cyanide and carbon monoxide bind to the oxygen receptor on haemoglobin more tightly than does oxygen itself, hence blocking the binding site even if oxygen is still present). This is well known for methanol, which AFAIR binds more tightly to alcohol dehydrogenase than does ethanol, and is then converted to formaldehyde by the same mechanism that ethanol converts to acetaldehyde. Unfortunately formaldehyde is also a great deal more toxic than acetaldehyde and the body doesn’t have the same mechanism for detoxifying it as it does for acetaldehyde. [The theory of the “hair of the dog” mechanism is that by swamping the receptors with fresh new ethanol, some of the tightly bound methanol / formaldehyde may be displaced simply by a Law of Mass Action effect.]
Fundamentally it’s all about non-linearity of biological responses, competitive binding to enzyme active sites and acute overload of the detoxifying mechanisms, which have evolved only to cope smoothly with ‘normal’ physiological levels of ethanol and congeners.
Wes Cherry
Jan 22, 2019, 12:05:28 AM1/22/19
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I’m confused.
So if say 1L of 7% cider has 1mL methanol and 69mL ethanol. Won’t that same 1L of cider freeze concentrated apple jack contain 1mL of methanol and 69mL of ethanol (assuming 100% yield)?
How is it different to drink either (other than water volume)?
-Wes
Dick Dunn
Jan 22, 2019, 1:43:04 AM1/22/19
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Wes - I've had the same arguments with myself as you have, about why
applejack should be worse than a larger amount of cider with the same
balance of good and bad components. Yes, the more concentrated result has
the same proportions of (say) ethanol:methanol, but the key is what Andrew
is saying about non-linear effects. Removing the water changes the
concentration at which the substances are absorbed, and apparently the
"bad" stuff is preferentially absorbed at higher concentrations.
You and I tend to think about the ethanol:methanol ratio, but not about the
ratio of either of those to the water content, which affects the uptake.
If we took the applejack and diluted it with water back to the pre-freezing
concentrations, I'd expect the effects to be the same as the cider from
which it was made. But doubling the proof-strength more-than-doubles the
adverse effects from other components.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:05:10PM -0800, Wes Cherry wrote:
> I'm confused.
>
> So if say 1L of 7% cider has 1mL methanol and 69mL ethanol. Won't that same 1L of cider freeze concentrated apple jack contain 1mL of methanol and 69mL of ethanol (assuming 100% yield)?
>
> How is it different to drink either (other than water volume)?
>
> -Wes
>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 1:53 PM, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Wes,
> >
> > AFAIK it's about differential toxicity. The toxicity / concentration response to higher alcohols and congeners is steeper than for ethanol (even though they are present at lower levels). So, for the same rise in overall concentration, the toxic effects of the congeners became more significant than for ethanol.
> >
> > One of the issues involved is the way in which non-ethanol substances bind more tightly to the ethanol receptors than does ethanol itself...
...
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
applejack should be worse than a larger amount of cider with the same
balance of good and bad components. Yes, the more concentrated result has
the same proportions of (say) ethanol:methanol, but the key is what Andrew
is saying about non-linear effects. Removing the water changes the
concentration at which the substances are absorbed, and apparently the
"bad" stuff is preferentially absorbed at higher concentrations.
You and I tend to think about the ethanol:methanol ratio, but not about the
ratio of either of those to the water content, which affects the uptake.
If we took the applejack and diluted it with water back to the pre-freezing
concentrations, I'd expect the effects to be the same as the cider from
which it was made. But doubling the proof-strength more-than-doubles the
adverse effects from other components.
On Mon, Jan 21, 2019 at 09:05:10PM -0800, Wes Cherry wrote:
> I'm confused.
>
> So if say 1L of 7% cider has 1mL methanol and 69mL ethanol. Won't that same 1L of cider freeze concentrated apple jack contain 1mL of methanol and 69mL of ethanol (assuming 100% yield)?
>
> How is it different to drink either (other than water volume)?
>
> -Wes
>
> > On Jan 21, 2019, at 1:53 PM, Andrew Lea <ci...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> >
> > Wes,
> >
> > AFAIK it's about differential toxicity. The toxicity / concentration response to higher alcohols and congeners is steeper than for ethanol (even though they are present at lower levels). So, for the same rise in overall concentration, the toxic effects of the congeners became more significant than for ethanol.
> >
...
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Wes Cherry
Jan 22, 2019, 11:39:58 AM1/22/19
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I don’t think Andrew was referring to absorption by the stomach/intestines, rather he was referring to metabolic pathways in the liver being occupied by methanol and etc.
How will blood alcohol content or ratio be appreciably different? Will extra water dilute BAC significantly?
Drinking water is one of the keys to avoiding a hangover. Cider, being lower ABV (more water) and simpler in chemical composition than most alcoholic beverages, does seem to be one of the gentlest alcohols hangover wise.
How will blood alcohol content or ratio be appreciably different? Will extra water dilute BAC significantly?
Drinking water is one of the keys to avoiding a hangover. Cider, being lower ABV (more water) and simpler in chemical composition than most alcoholic beverages, does seem to be one of the gentlest alcohols hangover wise.
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Josh Kellermann
Jan 22, 2019, 10:23:06 PM1/22/19
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Hi Bethany,
I had a gallon of hard cider that I left out to freeze in below zero F weather for a few nights. It left me with some frozen sections and some slushy sections, so i kind of poured out the slush into another container then froze it one more time and poured that out into a jar.
I thought it was delicious. It totally changed the flavor- tasted more acidic, definitely more alcohol-forward, and totally unbalanced in all directions. It was fun to watch people’s faces when they drank it.
Now, I didn’t drink gallons of the stuff, just a glass here and there, so I can’t speak to the dangers of it, but I thought it was a fun experiment that I’d do again.
Best,
Josh
I had a gallon of hard cider that I left out to freeze in below zero F weather for a few nights. It left me with some frozen sections and some slushy sections, so i kind of poured out the slush into another container then froze it one more time and poured that out into a jar.
I thought it was delicious. It totally changed the flavor- tasted more acidic, definitely more alcohol-forward, and totally unbalanced in all directions. It was fun to watch people’s faces when they drank it.
Now, I didn’t drink gallons of the stuff, just a glass here and there, so I can’t speak to the dangers of it, but I thought it was a fun experiment that I’d do again.
Best,
Josh
Bethany Walker
Jan 23, 2019, 10:11:04 AM1/23/19
to Cider Workshop
Thanks for the input! I'm going to experiment and see what happens. This cider has a bit of wild yeast funk to it, so it might be totally gross in the end :-)
Andrew Lea
Jan 25, 2019, 6:30:07 AM1/25/19
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Wes,
Yes it’s all about concentration. A spirit is 5 or more times more concentrated in alcohols than the original cider. So when that shot hits the upper intestine where the alcohols are passively absorbed into the bloodstream, there will be 5x the concentration of alcohols to be handled by the detoxifying enzymes (mostly in the liver). The main enzyme class concerned is alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) which has of course evolved only to handle the small amounts of alcohols (mostly ethanol but some methanol) present naturally in foods of plant origin. The ADH systems are therefore severely overloaded when presented with cider or wine, moreso with spirits.
Now the ADHs are optimised for ethanol oxidation to acetaldehyde and acetic acid and thence via normal metabolic processes. These materials are relatively benign. But if large amounts of methanol hit the ADH systems, they struggle to oxidise it and when they do it goes to formaldehyde and formic acid which are much more toxic than acetaldehyde and acetic (and which can eventually cause blindness and death). If large amounts of higher alcohols / fusels (such as butanol, amyl alcohol and phenyl ethanol) are also present, they block the active sites on the ADHs because they are more lipophilic and hence cause the whole system to slow down through overload.
Hence the hangover, due to inhibited rates of alcohol oxidation and build up of toxic metabolites. But, if the ratio of ethanol to methanol and fusels (collectively known as ‘congeners’) is higher (i.e in a ‘clean’ spirit which has been fractionally distilled) then the oxidation systems are less overloaded than they are when presented with a ‘dirty’ spirit with no fractionation such as applejack. Hence, other things being equal, a fractionated spirit will give you less of a hangover than an unfractionated spirit (because the fractionated spirit has a greater ethanol to congeners ratio) . I think this is commonly accepted in the world of beverage toxicology. As I said, the “hair of the dog” remedy for hangovers (by temporarily increasing the proportion of clean ethanol to occupy the active ADH sites and displace the congeners) has also been investigated and shown to be valid and indeed can be and is used to treat acute methanol poisoning.
As for the relative hangover effect of cider vs beer or wine, it has also been commonly accepted certainly here in the UK that traditional ciders are the worse for hangovers and this has been ascribed to their typically higher levels of phenyl ethanol (the most toxic of the common fusels). The origin of phenyl ethanol in fermented beverages is complex and there are several routes but certainly in the case of apples some of it comes from precursors in the apples themselves especially in the case of cider apples.
I am not a physiologist but i have had some background in food toxicology and these are my understandings.
Yes it’s all about concentration. A spirit is 5 or more times more concentrated in alcohols than the original cider. So when that shot hits the upper intestine where the alcohols are passively absorbed into the bloodstream, there will be 5x the concentration of alcohols to be handled by the detoxifying enzymes (mostly in the liver). The main enzyme class concerned is alcohol dehydrogenase (ADH) which has of course evolved only to handle the small amounts of alcohols (mostly ethanol but some methanol) present naturally in foods of plant origin. The ADH systems are therefore severely overloaded when presented with cider or wine, moreso with spirits.
Now the ADHs are optimised for ethanol oxidation to acetaldehyde and acetic acid and thence via normal metabolic processes. These materials are relatively benign. But if large amounts of methanol hit the ADH systems, they struggle to oxidise it and when they do it goes to formaldehyde and formic acid which are much more toxic than acetaldehyde and acetic (and which can eventually cause blindness and death). If large amounts of higher alcohols / fusels (such as butanol, amyl alcohol and phenyl ethanol) are also present, they block the active sites on the ADHs because they are more lipophilic and hence cause the whole system to slow down through overload.
Hence the hangover, due to inhibited rates of alcohol oxidation and build up of toxic metabolites. But, if the ratio of ethanol to methanol and fusels (collectively known as ‘congeners’) is higher (i.e in a ‘clean’ spirit which has been fractionally distilled) then the oxidation systems are less overloaded than they are when presented with a ‘dirty’ spirit with no fractionation such as applejack. Hence, other things being equal, a fractionated spirit will give you less of a hangover than an unfractionated spirit (because the fractionated spirit has a greater ethanol to congeners ratio) . I think this is commonly accepted in the world of beverage toxicology. As I said, the “hair of the dog” remedy for hangovers (by temporarily increasing the proportion of clean ethanol to occupy the active ADH sites and displace the congeners) has also been investigated and shown to be valid and indeed can be and is used to treat acute methanol poisoning.
As for the relative hangover effect of cider vs beer or wine, it has also been commonly accepted certainly here in the UK that traditional ciders are the worse for hangovers and this has been ascribed to their typically higher levels of phenyl ethanol (the most toxic of the common fusels). The origin of phenyl ethanol in fermented beverages is complex and there are several routes but certainly in the case of apples some of it comes from precursors in the apples themselves especially in the case of cider apples.
I am not a physiologist but i have had some background in food toxicology and these are my understandings.
Wes Cherry
Jan 25, 2019, 10:55:25 AM1/25/19
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Alcohol absorption speed does correlate with abv:
(Mixed drink vs wine vs beer)
One would assume the relationship is linear and a shot would be even faster
However, via extensive, extremely uncontrolled self experiments in college, I can attest to the powers of a beer drank at shot-speeds. :O
Biogenic amines (histamines) are another likely culprit in west county cider contribution to hangovers. They can be generated by wild lactic acid bacteria. I can usually tell (what I think are) histamines with a cider or wine due to my immune response- my skin feels prickly and gets reddish, sometimes I feel congested. Continuing to drink that wine/cider assures a hangover for me even with <= 2 drinks. This is one of the reasons I suppress natural ML fermentation in my cider and avoid organic and “natural wines”.
Another possibility is “natural” production techniques lead to more methanol and fusels. Are you aware of any research on this?
Andrew Lea
Jan 28, 2019, 11:37:33 AM1/28/19
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On 25/01/2019 15:55, Wes Cherry wrote:
>
> Biogenic amines (histamines) are another likely culprit in west country
and cider in recent years. It brings an extra dimension to the hangover
story. As far as cider is concerned, much of the work has been in Spain
because of their relatively uncontrolled lactic fermentations during
cidermaking which are important for the Spanish flavour profile.
>
> Another possibility is “natural” production techniques lead to more
> methanol and fusels. Are you aware of any research on this?
There is a good deal on fusels wrt different yeasts in Fred Beech's
review paper from 1972, at a time when the UK industry was moving away
from "wild" and "natural" to much more control.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03485.x
I don't offhand know of any more recent work (unless there is some from
Spain again). The presence of phenylethanol and other fusels
pre-existing in the apple as glycosidic precursors was not known in the
1970's and only became apparent in the mid 1980's. There are at least 3
different biochemical routes to fusel alcohol production each of which
could be affected by many things. The route to methanol is different,
since it comes from pectin breakdown, but again there are many factors
which could influence that.
Andrew
--
near Oxford, UK
www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Cider-Making-Andrew-Lea/dp/1785000152
>
> Biogenic amines (histamines) are another likely culprit in west country
> cider contribution to hangovers. They can be generated by wild lactic
> acid bacteria. I can usually tell (what I think are) histamines with a
> cider or wine due to my immune response- my skin feels prickly and gets
> reddish, sometimes I feel congested. This is
> acid bacteria. I can usually tell (what I think are) histamines with a
> cider or wine due to my immune response- my skin feels prickly and gets
> one of the reasons I suppress natural ML fermentation in my cider and
> avoid organic and “natural wines”.
Yes there has been a lot of work on histamine and other amines in wine
> avoid organic and “natural wines”.
and cider in recent years. It brings an extra dimension to the hangover
story. As far as cider is concerned, much of the work has been in Spain
because of their relatively uncontrolled lactic fermentations during
cidermaking which are important for the Spanish flavour profile.
>
> Another possibility is “natural” production techniques lead to more
> methanol and fusels. Are you aware of any research on this?
review paper from 1972, at a time when the UK industry was moving away
from "wild" and "natural" to much more control.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1002/j.2050-0416.1972.tb03485.x
I don't offhand know of any more recent work (unless there is some from
Spain again). The presence of phenylethanol and other fusels
pre-existing in the apple as glycosidic precursors was not known in the
1970's and only became apparent in the mid 1980's. There are at least 3
different biochemical routes to fusel alcohol production each of which
could be affected by many things. The route to methanol is different,
since it comes from pectin breakdown, but again there are many factors
which could influence that.
Andrew
--
near Oxford, UK
www.amazon.co.uk/Craft-Cider-Making-Andrew-Lea/dp/1785000152
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