29mm crown caps not completely crimping

[jonypiana]

Hi All, 

I've searched the archives and found some discourse on 29mm crown caps not properly sealing. However, I could not find enough information for my particular quandry:

 I bottled a barrel of cider yesterday with an SG of 1.009 with hopes for a nice carbonation. I'm using heavyweight (900 g) champagne bottles with 29mm crown caps. I have an Ferarri Floor Corker with the crown cap adaptor and the 29mm bell. When using this capper the crown cap seals but with a bit of force, I can spin the cap. It currently holds the liquid even after shaking and flipping the bottle upside down. I worry that as the cider continues to ferment in-bottle, it will begin to seep through. I've brought a couple of test bottles up to room temperature which I will shake every once in awhile to check for seepage.

Any thoughts?  

I've attached the bottle specs of the bottles I'm using. (see attachment; it's the first bottle of the two shown) I need to make this work, as it was quite a costly pallet of bottles. 

Firstly, 

why can't get the 29mm crown caps to completely crimp on these bottles without spinning, using my ferrari floor corker and corresponding 29 mm bell adaptor? 

Secondly, 

Should I aim to replace the caps that are currently on the bottles? I'm hoping my test bottles at room temperature will instruct me one way or the other. But If I do find that they begin to seep, what are some action steps for re-sealing? Can I find a tool to re-crimp the caps already in place? Or will I have to use corks with wires, or find a way for the 29mm caps to work for these bottles?

As for sourcing 29mm crown caps: 

I've found affordable caps for sale from outfits like midwest supplies for $50 per 1000.  But I've also found a company, Presque Isle Wine Cellars selling stainless steel 29 mm crown caps for in-bottle fermentation for about $190 per 1000. I'm wondering if these more expensive caps are indicative of there quality and perhaps part of the reason why I couldn't get a complete crimp was due to using the less expensive and less quality crown caps with my particular bottles. Any thoughts here regarding variation in 29mm crown caps?

Thanks for your help!

jon

fable farm fermentery

Barnard, VT

[Rich Anderson]

Assuming that 29 mm caps are appropriate for the bottles,  crown capping has four variables. The finish on the bottle, the cap, the crowning bell and the pressure to apply the cap. Not much you can do regarding the regarding the bottle finish or the caps since they are mass produced from a mold or die. You might try to find/borrow another crown applicator and see if it does a better job. From personal experience I found that I needed to get my capper adjusted to a precisely correct height to get a good fit however it is a semi automatic capper driven by compressed  air.

 

.

[Jez Howat]

I have had poor results with crown caps on traditional method cider... Though I suspect it is user rather than tools at error!

For this year, I have gone back to using plastic corks with a cage. It works well and you can reuse the cork. After disgorging I use a champagne cork (plastic corks are not so good for long term storage of the finished product). However, my one piece of advice on this (as it was given to me freely this weekend:-) is that you will need both corker and press for the cork and cage... And don't push champagne corks in too far - they won't come out again!!

Cheers

Jez

[Wes Cherry]

We have searched for other suppliers of 29mm crown caps, and all we have found appear to be from the same factory.  Best pricing is through Brewcraft, who supplies most of the homebrew stores in the US.   You will have to create an account, but that's easy.

http://www.brewcraftusa.com/

We had some problems with them not crimping properly - they leave a sharp exposed edge at the bottom which is hard on your hands.   We don't have that problem w/ 26mm caps using the same capper.   I ordered a replacement capping bell which works better - not perfect though.    Our capper is an italian pneumatic one.   Zambelli?

Another good test for seal is to heat the bottles up (or pasteurize them) to increase the in pressure bottle.   Then submerge the bottles in water and look for bubbles escaping.

-Wes

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[Jason Mitchell (Ashridge Cider)]

Hi Jon. It may be too late, but I strongly advise using crown caps with an integral plastic insert. They make a good seal. If the crimping is not working it sounds like you haven't got the correct die for the caps. 

There is no way you should be able to spin the cap. 

Jason

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[jonypiana]

Thanks ya'll for your initial responses.

Jason, you mentioned I might have the wrong die for the caps? What's a die? Is it the bell adaptor that the crown fits up into just before crimping down? I was using one specific for 29mm caps.

So the feedback I'm getting is that it's not desirable for these crown caps to spin by any means. Considering I currently have about 200 bottles capped in this manner, what are some suggestions of where I should go from here? Do I take off all the caps and replace them with wired corks? I can't recap them until I figure out why my ferrari floor corker with a 29mm crown cap adaptor is not properly sealing these bottles. At the moment, I really don't know why it's not working.

cheers,

jon 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

jonypiana wrote:

I can't recap them until I figure out why my ferrari floor corker with a 29mm crown cap adaptor is not properly sealing these bottles. At the moment, I really don't know why it's not working.

A simple question... Is your die (or bell adaptor) old or new? If old, it might have worn and become of a larger diameter than it initially was, explaining that it doesn't crimp tight enough. If new, it could be off tolerance - these things do happen in manufacturing.
If you could borrow of buy a new one for making tests, it might be worth it.
Another thing you could try is to buy an inexpensive manual capper (10 to 15$) and test with your caps to see if it is tight. However, I am not sure if these manual cappers are easily available in the 29mm size...
One thing is sure - you need to find what is wrong. It has to be either the capper, or some wrong fit between the caps and the bottles.
Claude

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, May 05, 2014 at 07:11:35PM -0700, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
...

> A simple question... Is your die (or bell adaptor) old or new? If old, it
> might have worn and become of a larger diameter than it initially was,

> explaining that it doesn't crimp tight enough...

Also, is there a height adjustment, or does it just depend on moving
downward until it meets enough resistance? For a floor corker/capper like
what Jon described, I'm only familiar with the corking setup where there
is a positive stop (which must be carefully adjusted).

> If you could borrow of buy a new one for making tests, it might be worth it.
> Another thing you could try is to buy an inexpensive manual capper (10 to
> 15$) and test with your caps to see if it is tight. However, I am not sure
> if these manual cappers are easily available in the 29mm size...

That's a good idea. If you have home beer/wine shops, just go in with a
few empty bottles and a few caps; ask to try whatever cappers they have.
Claude, some of them (perhaps most???) have replacement bells for 29 mm.

Jon, I wouldn't despair at all yet, since it's very unlikely that your
biggest investment (the bottles) is the source of the problem. And as to
the solution to what you've already capped, the problem just might be the
capper/bell, in which case you could re-crimp the caps with a different
capper and solve the loose-cap problem. Your bottles are probably still
evolving some CO2...that's no proof against partial pressures, but at least
you wouldn't be -drawing- O2 inward.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[TimB]

Are you sure that your bottles require 29mm caps? The illustration that you attached indicates a 29mm dimension lower on the neck of the bottle where it appears wider than the lip of the bottle where the cap attaches.

Here in the U.S. there are many Champagne style bottles sold that take "standard" 26mm crown caps instead of the "European" style 29mm crown caps. I would recommend measuring the top of the bottle If you haven't already done so. If the bottles have 26mm tops, recapping them with 26mm caps using the corresponding 26mm bell should do the trick.

Tim

[jonypiana]

Thanks Dick and Claude for your insight. 

It gives me hope to think I can simply re-crimp the bottles. I'm going to purchase another 29mm bell housing piece, however I'm not confident that this is the answer, because I had borrowed 2 different 29mm bell housing units (in addition to my own) when bottling last weekend, one of which looked shiny and new, and all produced the same result. This leads me to think that there is something going on with my ferrari floor corker/capper, user error, or perhaps the type of bottles I'm using are not compatible with the type of 29mm crown caps that I'm using. Perhaps there is variation found among 29mm caps that would result in a incomplete seal? Could the integral plastic inserts that Jason suggested enhance sealing capabilities? Tim, I've contacted the manufacturers of the bottles, and they assure me that these bottles take 29mm caps. When placing a 26mm cap on the bottles, it's very clear that they are too small. 

Does anyone have experience using  29mm bell housing with the ferrari italian floor corker? Is there a height adjustment factor that I'm missing? (I've tried adjusting the nut, which when corking effects the level of the cork, but with no effect when using the capper feature) 

I have an Emily manual caper which I also tried with 29mm bell housing. It basically produces the same result as my floor capper. 

Perhaps I need to try a different capper altogether, but which kind I don't know : )

On Sunday, May 4, 2014 11:44:55 AM UTC-4, jonypiana wrote:

[Dick Dunn]

On Mon, May 05, 2014 at 10:35:02PM -0700, TimB wrote:
> Are you sure that your bottles require 29mm caps? The illustration that you
> attached indicates a 29mm dimension lower on the neck of the bottle where
> it appears wider than the lip of the bottle where the cap attaches.

There's really no mistaking the difference! If you try to put a 29mm cap
on a 26mm bottle, you'll either get a cap that just-plain-wobbles, not even
close to closing (if you have a 29 mm capper) or you'll get a very weird
crimp and maybe break the crown (if you have a 26 mm capper). And if you
try to put a 26 mm cap on a 29 mm bottle, the chances of cracking the crown
are better than half. It just won't work. (Ask me why I'm so sure!:-)

> Here in the U.S. there are many Champagne style bottles sold that take
> "standard" 26mm crown caps instead of the "European" style 29mm crown caps.

True, but I think Jon is well past that point.

[TimB]

I found a thread on a wine forum that may or may not be helpful -

http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?/topic/45686-crown-cap-problem/

[Jason MacArthur]

I have not used the Ferrari floor corker for capping 29mm bottles, but I have used the 29mm bell housing that came with my Ferrari, modified to work on a different capper.  I have an occasional bottle that doesn't seal just right, but the bell housings seem to work.  They are pretty cheaply made though, and I have worn through a housing or two over time.  The Ferrari corker has an adjustable stop on it used when corking champagne bottles- any chance you are hitting that while capping?

Jason

[jonypiana]

Thanks Tim for the thread from Wine Press. It seems as though this fellow was having the same problem as I with the ferrari capper not crimping his caps all the way. I tried inserting a washer on top of the spring like he mentions in his post, but I don't think I was doing this exactly right. However, I did purchase a new bell housing. And I noticed that this bell housing has flared out ends that are more pronounced than my old one. Interestingly, this new bell housing is crimping my caps completely. I had tired three other bell housing units that did not crimp the caps completely before I found that the brand new one does. However, when I try to re-crimp the bottles that I already capped (the ones that spin slightly) they just get looser. So it turns out that I have to take off all the initial caps and re-cap the bottles altogether. 

Thank you everyone for trouble shooting with me!

jonny

[Leif Sundström]

Jason,

I know this is an old post, but you struck on something I've been searching for.  The crown caps with integral plastic insert - I've seen these on european ciders and wines but never on an american producer's product.  I have searched for them with no avail.  Do you have a source for these such caps?

Thanks,

Leif

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[Trevor FitzJohn]

VIGO sell them. I source mine in NZ directly from them. Cheers Trevor

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