Best mix of apples

[pete oconnor]

What is the best mix of apples in cider? Does it have to be cider apples all the way or is there a good split between eaters and cider apples.

I'm planting an orchard and was thinking of going all out cider apples but now I'm not to sure?

Any suggestions please

Pete

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/05/2014 07:58, pete oconnor wrote:
>
> What is the best mix of apples in cider? Does it have to be cider apples
> all the way or is there a good split between eaters and cider apples.

I think this topic is fairly well covered in the books by Claude and
myself, isn't it?

There are two important things to consider in my view.

1. The acid level of your final blend. You will probably be aiming at a
final acid level in the cider of 0.4% - 0.7%, depending on the style of
cider you wish to make. So this will dictate the balance between dessert
apples (generally high acid) and cider apples (which may be low acid if
bittersweet, but high acid if sharp or bittersharp). Ideally you should
also be aiming for a pH of 3.8 or below for fermentation, for good
microbiological control.

2. The indefinable aspect of 'vintage quality'. Cider apples can cover a
wide range of cider / tannin types (there are 4 classic classes) but
they will generally have much more character to them after fermentation
than dessert apples. That's how they come to be 'cider apples'.

If you want a rule of thumb, and you are in the UK, I'd say you could
aim at a 50/50 split between bittersweet and sharp / bittersharp cider
apples. If you don't have the sharp / bittersharp apples, then you could
substitute dessert apples but with some loss of overall character. (And
not all dessert apples are the same. Russets are going to beat Gala, for
instance. On the other hand, Jonagold and Katy can be surprisingly
successful.)

But depending on where you live and in which country this may not be
possible. You may not have access to bittersweet apples or they may not
grow well in your climate or on your soil. In any case, you can make
good light ciders purely from dessert apples, as long as you are aware
of and on top of the acidity problem and you choose your varieties
intelligently.

Andrew


--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Ray Blockley]

While accepting Andrew's wisdom, another way of looking at it is: what
styles of ciders do you wish to make? By planting a range of true
cider apples, plus good usable dessert apples, plus some good
dual-purpose (dessert/culinary) and even a few pure culinary, you are
then able to make a very wide range of cider styles, from light &
fruity "Eastern Counties" (UK style) ciders using dessert /
dual-purpose & culinary, through a whole spectrum of styles, bouquets
and flavours to "heavy" tannic ciders made with Bitter & Bittersweet
fruit.

You could always go do the experiment and see what happens...?

Ray.

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[Andrew Lea]

On 17/05/2014 09:41, Andrew Lea wrote:

> Cider apples can cover a wide range of cider / tannin types

Sorry typo. I meant 'acid / tannin' types.

[pete oconnor]

So if you both had a blank canvas 5acres + with a choice of any tree/variety/type available on the market and you were to produce 1 Cider and 1 Perry which had to be organic what would you do?

My thinking was I would plant 75% good eating apple (Better yield?) Like you say russet, cox Gala then 25% of a balancing Cider apple.

I don't know why I think I would get a better yield from eating apple whether more juice or better yield from the tree (your thought)

Like wise with the perry

Pete

[Andrew Lea]

Which country are you in and how much previous experience of fruit growing do you have? It is quite a challenge to produce organic dessert fruit to a good standard. 

I don't know why you think dessert apples would give better yield. In the UK, dessert and cider apples are managed quite differently anyway as regards pruning and this has a large effect on yield. In any case quality is surely more important than yield. And cider apples are harvested off the ground while dessert apples are hand picked. If you grew organic dessert apples successfully you would almost certainly want to look at selling some of them fresh to capitalise on your hard work. Other things being equal I would say that cider varieties are far better suited to organic cultivation than notoriously difficult varieties like Cox. 

You seem to be looking for a simple turnkey solution to quite a complex situation. And then suddenly you throw in perry as well!  I think you need to do a lot more background reading around the subject. There is only so much you can learn from random blokes on the Internet. We have given you some general pointers but as Ray says, you need to research and experiment for yourself. 

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

--

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/05/2014 11:08, pete oconnor wrote:
> So if you both had a blank canvas 5 acres + with a choice of any

> tree/variety/type available on the market and you were to produce 1
> Cider and 1 Perry which had to be organic what would you do?

I note from your previous mails that you are in Surrey. I can't comment
on the perry, but so far as the cider goes I would personally forget
dessert varieties and would go for a 50/50 bittersweet / bittersharp mix
as I suggested before. So you might typically have Dabinett, Harry
Masters, Yarlington Mill as bittersweets, and Kingston Black, Stoke Red
and Browns as sharps. They are all mid - late season so can store for a
while but more importantly will give you a balanced blend both before
and after fermentation. These should all work fine if you want to be
organic. If you wanted to spread the cropping period you could try some
of the new Liz Copas 'girls' varieties which are early season.

You can't be sure which of the cider varieties will do best on your site
so you will have to be prepared to experiment and if some of them don't
do well then topwork them over to something else.

I would not plant any dessert varieties deliberately if cider is all you
really want. On the other hand if you want to go to the trouble of
growing organic dessert varieties to acceptable market standard, while
diverting the outgrades to juice as well as cider, then I would tend to
go for the older 'Victorian' dessert varieties eg Blenheim Orange,
Egremont Russet, Laxton Superb, Ribston Pippin, D'Arcy Spice, Ashmeads
Kernel etc etc which are better flavoured and barn store better than
more modern dessert varieties and can command a premium if you get the
marketing right.

I also note from a previous post that you were planning to make large
amounts of vinegar. It seems a shame to make top class cider only to
downgrade it to vinegar. You don't need good cider apples to make
vinegar - Bramley cider would probably do fine - and there are some
practical drawbacks with making vinegar from bittersweet ciders because
the tannins tend to go on forming hazes in finished product indefinitely
(unless you add SO2) which can be a problem for the consumer who
generally expects vinegar to be clear.

But as I said before these are all decisions you must make for yourself
after adequate research.

Andrew

[Richard Hyde]

There are good eating apples that are also know as good Cider apples......Ashmead's Kernel for instance.  A lovely russeted apple.

So I guess you could go all out "Cider" and just use known cider apples or mix it up a bit with good eaters that can also make cider.

There are many books written by people right here on the types one can use.  I'm at the same place as you and slowly am figuring out what I will plant and how many, spacing etc.  I'll put bramleys and crabs and pear in the ground by the time I'm done.  Quince too maybe.  There is jelly and all sorts to be made not just booze.

Good luck.

RH.

[Dougal]

This post by Andrew is excellent advice. 

 

Yield does not necessarily give body or flavour.  At present, I only have access to dessert apples and, whilst we have studied hard to select varieties that produce good blends of ciders in certain styles, they just do not have the amplification of body and flavour that cider apples have.  On their own they taste great but alongside a solid English cider they fall short.  Gala, which you mention, for example, produces insipid cider; why would you want to add that to a blend?

 

Do more research and fine tune your business plan.

 

On Sunday, May 18, 2014 2:39:16 AM UTC+12, Andrew Lea wrote:

I note from your previous mails that you are in Surrey. I can't comment
on the perry, but so far as the cider goes I would personally forget
dessert varieties and would go for a 50/50 bittersweet / bittersharp mix
as I suggested before. So you might typically have Dabinett, Harry
Masters, Yarlington Mill as bittersweets, and Kingston Black, Stoke Red

and Browns as sharps....