Dabinett and Yarlington Mill or Crimson King and Stoke Red: Help me pick my first trees

[bensira]

I've found a lot of useful information on this group so far, and I know some very knowlegable people post here. I'm hoping to plat my first two cider apple trees this winter. In fact these will be my first trees of any variety. Because of that I'm looking for a pair of cultivars that will be quite resistant to disease.

I have two pairs in mind, and can only choose one of the pairs. Any pair I pick (even if different to the below) will need to be compatible pollination partners.

1. Dabinett and Yarlington Mill
2. Crimson King and Stoke Red

The latter pair seems to be more resistant to both scab and canker, is that correct? The trees will be planted on the coast in the west of Ireland in wet and windy growing conditions which aren't ideal for cider apples, so it's important that I choose the best cultivars for the conditions. Any advice or reading suggestions would be gratefully received. I'm particularly interested to hear about anything that works well* in similar conditions

*well being a relative term in these circumstances

[Handmade Cider]

I do not know about disease resistance of the cultivars but I know what makes a half decent cider and in my opinion planting Crimson King is pointless in your circumstance. Crimson King is a pure sweet and although it is a useful apple I would be looking to the bittersweets or bittersharps for your selection. The bittersweets and bittersharps are the cultivars you will struggle to find for your blend and although you can make up the acidity in your blend using Crimson King, you could also use cull dessert or culinary fruit for this.

Denis

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 8 juillet 2015 03:03:48 UTC-4, bensira a écrit :

I've found a lot of useful information on this group so far, and I know some very knowlegable people post here. I'm hoping to plat my first two cider apple trees this winter. In fact these will be my first trees of any variety. Because of that I'm looking for a pair of cultivars that will be quite resistant to disease.

Being in Canada, I can't help much for telling how these might perform in your location. However, a thing I notice from the pairs you suggest:
 

Dabinett and Yarlington Mill

You here have 2 bittersweet varieties

Crimson King and Stoke Red

And here you have 2 sharp varieties.

I would certainly suggest you rather try to set a pair with one bittersweet and one sharp! This would permit to prepare a better balanced blend.
Another possibility is to plant 2 bittersweet trees and to buy sharper apples. Note that apples with higher acidity levels are always easier to procure than low-acidity apples. So if you have a good crop of bittersweets, you buy a bit of Bramley, of Egremont Russet or some other commonly grown variety in your region and you can make a very nicely balanced blend.

Claude

[Dougal]

Claude's idea is a good one.

However, sticking to the parameters of your question, I would go with Dabinett and Yarlington Mill.  The reasons for this are that both are fairly easy trees to grow, both crop fairly consistently (Dab is consistent, Yarlington will give you 5 out of 7 good years), Dabinett gives good juice yields, both harvest a bit later in the season, and they balance quite well (Yarlington lays down a rich, tannic base and Dabinett gives a brighter cider that works well over the top).  I have read that Stoke Red is quite a brittle, twiggy tree (as well as being strongly biennial) so that may not make it suitable in your windy conditions.

[Wes Cherry]

My only caveat is Dabinett is prone to anthracnose, a fungal canker disease that hits us especially hard.  Anthracnose and regular European canker susceptibility seems to correlate, so your wet climate may be an issue with Dabinett.   Other than that, Dabinett is a good performer that reliably crops and makes a great cider.

-Wes

[Dougal]

Good point.  I would suggest investing in the best-performing rootstock for your needs, even if it means re-grafting a nursery-bought tree.  Some rootstocks have good resistance to disease.  Keep the copper up and inspect your two trees regularly, cutting out any canker you notice.

[Llanblethian Orchards]

Hi,

Stoke red is a brilliant cider variety, and single variety has won numerous awards around the country with various producers but it is a slow variety to get into fruiting and has a very twiggy unkempt habit - on the plus side it is a good disease resitant variety. It is also tends to be a bit too sharp a variety on it's own as a dry in South Wales. where im from. Just something to consider. I'd agree with others that say you need bittersweets more than anything else as they tend to be the hardest to source fruit and sharpness can be made up with cookers at a push to give a good cider - Some cider makers I know in Hereford tend to add 20% bramleys to late bittersweet apples to give a very acceptable cider.

Yarlington mill and dabinett both make good cider. Yarlington Mill can have a reputation of not clearing very quickly so it's not the best variety if you want a clear cider without using 'technology'

I'd personally consider Ellis Bitter or another of the bittersweets that flower around the same time as the others over crimson King.

Alex

[bensira]

Thank you to everybody for replying. It seems that the Dabinett and Yarlington Mill pair is the best of the two, so I will most probably go with this. I'll do some more research and maybe come back with more questions. I've just picked up a copy of "Growing Cider Apples" by Liz Copas and Roger Umpelby and that has some great information. However, in the meantime, if anyone can suggest a better (pollination compatible) pair for the scenario described, I'm all ears.

Alex, I have access to a few cooking apple trees in a poor neglected orchard near home. Not sure of the variety, but they are something similar to Bramleys and should be at hand to get the right flavour mix. As are some pears

Dougal, on the issue of rootstocks, when you refer to the "best performing" do you mean the most vigorous? I didn't realise that some rootstocks were more disease resistant than others, so I guess that's something I'll have to look into, thanks.

Claude, I had a browse through your book in a bookshop a few days ago. The designs for a juice press were very helpful!

I will post again soon with a similar question on pear cultivars once I've done enough of my own research. I'm waiting for the postman to deliver my copy of Raymond Bush's book on pear tree growing.

[Dougal]

'Best performing' means 'best for your needs'.  I'm not sure if you want to grow big standards (5m +) or more easily needed managed semi-dwarfs (~3m); or if you want to grow a scaffolded centre leader or spindle-type tree; or if your soil is rich and loamy or thin and chalky; or if you intend supporting the tree or expecting it to be self-supporting; or if you are planting into virgin soil or an area previously used for orcharding.  All these things determine rootstock (vigour, root spread, apple replant disorder) selection.  Then, there are certain rootstocks that have been developed for resistance to a range of diseases and pests.

Can you give us a few more clues?

[bensira]

Thanks Dougal

I had been considering MM106 as my rootstock. I've put some more information below to answer your specific questions and give you some context. Hopefully that can help determine whether MM106 is a god choice

Size

I would prefer the tree to be semi dwarfing rather than fully growing. I appreciate that a more vigorous rootstock might stand a better chance in the conditions, however I would prefer it not to completely take over the garden. MM106 at about 3 - 4 metres high would be fine.

Scaffold centre leader or spindle bush tree

This is something I haven't read a great deal about. From what little I have read, it seems that a scaffold centre leader type of pruning is the default option, whereas the spindle bush type tree is something similar to an espalier or a cordon (?) and more suited to an experienced grower looking for a high yield. As this would be my first tree, I would prefer to keep things simple and go for the scaffold centre leader type of tree.

Soil

The land it will be planted on is quite thick clay, however over the past ten years, the top layer of soil has been worked up with better quality topsoil and a lot of natural compost and fertiliser - seaweed, manure etc. Despite the clay, it seems to be quite well draining (high flat land with 1- 2m steep sloped drop right beside it) and very suitable for the range of other bushes and trees planted there - mostly ornamental rather than fruit or veg. I have no idea what the soil ph is (unless the fact that it's thick pale yellow clay would give any clues), but do plan on getting this tested, and can hopefully adjust it as necessary. I'm also willing to work the lower layers of the thick clay soil with sand where the tree will be planted if this would give the roots a better chance before being planted this winter. The specific two spots I'm looking to plant on are currently used for grass lawn, and have been for many years.

Support

I expect the tree will need to be supported with a stake for a number of years as the area can be quite windy.

Context

Besides a little patch of tomatoes, grapes, gooseberries and a few veg on my little balcony in London, I haven't ever planted anything much at all or taken any interest in growing things until now, therefore, the lower maintenance my cider trees are the better. Back home, where they will be planted, I have a family of very keen organic gardeners, so I won't be completely adrift. The purpose of the trees is to be able to make some cider (and perry) as a hobby the whole family can join in on. We already have access to a fair amount of apples and pears with which I'm going to make cider with once they come into fruit, but seemingly all of these are cooking desert and crab varieties. Conditions for planting the cider trees are far from ideal, but it's the only land available to me, so I would be happy to take a punt on them even if they ultimately fail and use it as a learning experience for later years when I would love to establish a proper orchard.

Thanks

Michael

[Jon Pinson]

Let me preface my response with a little bit about me. I am a professional nurseryman, working at a long established and well regarded tree nursery. My experience of trees beyond their first two years of life is limited, but I feel as though I have something to offer you.

Dabinett does of course offer a very useful crop, and is fairly easy to grow, so I would suggest that as a good option. Something to consider with it though, is that it is a fairly weak grower. Perhaps consider a slightly stronger rootstock in comparison to whichever other variety you go for.

Yarlington mill is a much stronger grower, which grows to a strong, non feathered whip in its maiden year.

Stoke red grows as a feathered maiden, but not strongly. It looks a little weak and sickly to begin with.

I have no professional experience of crimson king, however I did graft one for my own uses this year. It began to grow vigorously, but without warning it shed its leaves and died. I have no reason for this.

[bensira]

That's very interesting, thanks for the input Jon.

My local nursery (which I would prefer to support over anywhere else) has a choice of only three rootstocks with cider apples already grafted and ready for this winter: M9, MM106 and M25. Given the conditions I'll be growing in, I think the M9 would be a poor choice. If the Dabinett is a weak grower and this simply means a smaller tree and less fruit, I'm quite happy with this (in fact if I had better site and climate conditions I would probably go for a dwarfing rootstock).

However, if by weak grower, you mean that the Dabinett will be sickly or prone to problems on an MM106 rootstock, I might have to consider using an M25 for the Dabinett. What do you reckon?

Thanks

Michael

[David Pickering]

Hi Michael,

I’ve been away from home so am just catching up with Workshop traffic.

You’ve had a fair bit of advice regarding your variety choosing and probably have made your decision, but there is one thing that hasn’t been mentioned in the exchanges. The extra that I’d throw into the mix is to consider turning two into three or more by multi grafting. This isn’t something you’d necessarily do or need to do in the first year or two but it is feasible to do it early in the life of a tree if you wanted to. If you’re not comfortable doing the grafting perhaps one of the organic gardeners you mentioned has some experience.

This would at least let you have - for instance - additional bittersweet fruit such as the Ellis Bitter that Alex mentioned. Or graft some Stoke Red onto one tree and an appropriate pollinator onto the other so that you get some bittersharp fruit. Be guided by Cider Workshop people as to blossoming dates - Stoke Red is very late flowering here in Oz so presumably behaves the same way there.

Cheers - David

David Pickering - "Linden Lea" 681 Huntley Road, ORANGE NSW 2800

http://www.cideroz.com/

http://www.cideraustralia.org.au/

[bensira]

Thanks for the reply David. Yes, I'm definitely going to look into grafting a second variety onto one of the trees at least. However, from what I understand about it, you need to select varieties with similar levels of vigour, or one of the varieties will dominate the other. With this in mind, it's something I'm going to leave until I've got my trees established and I've done research on good combinations.

Michael