Weston's ingredients

[Vicky]

Hi all,

On a 6 hour train journey I confess to drinking a can of M&S Weston's cider.  M&S are quite keen on ingredients lists which was as follows, I don't believe I've seen Weston's own labelled products sport this amount of detail.

Water
Apple juice from concentrate
Glucose syrup
Sugar
Carbon dioxide
Lactic acid
Malic acid
E224, Sulphites
Yeast

All slow fermented and matured to develop a full character or so it says on the can.  This seems in stark contrast to Weston's own description here http://www.westons-cider.co.uk/About-Us/Cider-Making/ which implies full juice from their own apples only.


Vicky

[Vicky]

Still on the Weston's website this is a new one on me http://www.westons-cider.co.uk/Cider-ICE/

Cider slush puppy?  I remember "cider" flavour ice lollies from the ice cream van in our village, I think they were 15p.

[Tim]

Nice, maybe worth contacting trading standards and pointing out your discovery. J

 

Tim

 

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[tim-...@supanet.com]

Hi Vicky,
I highlighted this back in the summer. You will find a similar list on M &
S Thatchers cider. Says on the front, 2009 vintage Summerset cider (on the
back, made from concentrate etc) and M & S Westons Herefordshire perry
says made from pears grown in Kent!
Tim (Tutts Clump Cider)

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[Claude Jolicoeur]

Vicky wrote:
> Hi all,
> On a 6 hour train journey I confess to drinking a can of M&S Weston's
> cider.  M&S are quite keen on ingredients lists which was as follows, I
> don't believe I've seen Weston's own labelled products sport this amount of
> detail.

Interestingly, while at CiderDays last weekend, they had some of
Weston Cider at the Cider Salon. I did try it, but was quite
disappointed. Now I know why...
There also was some nice cider and perry from Oliver's which I enjoyed
very much.
Claude

[Matt Eldridge]

 Maybe that's why I felt so rough after 8 pints of Westons Organic on Saturday, it's all the additives :-)
 
 Matt in Ely
 

---

Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:45:06 +0000
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients
From: vgo...@gmail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Jez Howat]

I don’t think that ingredients list will look a lot different for 90% of all cider sold in the UK, and the only bits that put it outside of ‘real’ cider is the use of concentrate, glucose syrup and sugar. – given that, its not surprising that lactic and malic acid are used to adjust the profile to the desired levels.

 

Glad to see some kind of labelling getting through though!

 

Remember, we are the odd ones out for doing it with full juice and minimal intervention!!

 

All the best

 

Jez

[Jez Howat]

Oh, and I was going to add that I suspect the website has been examined to ensure it breaks no rules – EHO or otherwise. I have noticed for some years that its not so much what the larger manufacturers say, but what they don’t say that I would consider dishonest – but there is nothing technically wrong with it.

 

Those who have been to Westons will have seen that they do indeed mill their apples (and I have no problem in thinking that the mix they say they are using is correct too). Looking around the factory they do indeed ferment and store the cider in large oak vats – and have a very large sheet filter etc. to process afterwards. The bit that is missing is where they concentrate the juice for storage, add the glucose etc. etc. However, that is simply being selective, its not strictly speaking even dishonest. After all, on your own website your not going to show the warts as well as the beauty spots!

 

Magners is the site that I would say does this with the most panache – really saying nothing about its own production apart from what is accepted as traditional. You just have to remind yourself that they are not required by law to tell the whole story – or in fact any of it – as long as it is not out and out lies. We can unpick reality on groups like this – and there is nothing better to do so than when you have a can with the ingredients list on it!! Well spotted Vicky... it might start a trend:-)

 

All the best

 

Jez

 

PS – Cider in a can... didn’t that set any alarm bells ringing???

 

 

[Michael Cobb]

Cider is basically a seasonal product that the public want all year round.
The big players have to decide on the most economic way to meet this
demand, making it the traditional way and storing it for year round use is
probably not economic that it why they use concentrate. With concentrate
they can make a consistent product year round to meet demand. The good
thing is that there is a greater use of local juice to make the
concentrate in the first place instead of having to import much of it.
What would be even better would be the use of all the apples going to
waste on farms that have standard orchards no longer on contract. 100%
juice cider is likely to remain a niche product for the enthusiast and the
lucky ones who are prepared to accept seasonality and have a landlord who
is prepared to meet their needs - perhaps from some of the posters on this
list!

Michael Cobb

[Alexander Peckham]

At a tangent, we have established a small cidermaking venture here in
NZ. We have grafted over a small conventional orchard to cider
varieties which started to yield last year. Cost wise this makes no
sense. We are in an apple growing area and the packhouses reject huge
volumes of fruit some of which they "dispose" of via a number of local
cidermakers. This solves some of the seasonality issue as the
packhouses store fruit in coldstore and work for 6 months of the
year. The last reject fruit has only just been pressed.

I believe that most of the mainstream cidermakers then go down the
apple wine/sugar etc route. In effect we end up competing against
cider which is being made from a free raw material. The end product
is then watered down and incurs less excise - above 6% cider here is
basically taxed like wine. Very difficult to compete with this model
when both products make claims that sound so similar - local fruit,
fermented in ...

To make matters worse, the cheep drink that comes from this chain
undermines people's view of cider and is part of a trend to further
control on alcohol so as to mitigate against a "binge drinking"
culture.

Since the term cider has been commandeered - maybe we need to find
another name for the drink?

[Mark Evens]

At the risk of a bit of a rant, one has to ask why is it that cider
(both the word and the drink) is abused in this fashion, whereas wine
(similarly a seasonal product) is not? Is it because the low duty
rates encourage this behaviour or because of the lack of protection a
la "Appellation Controlee" or because the vested interests like to
keep things the way they are, or maybe a combination of these. It is a
great shame to see what was a traditional cider maker like Westons
going down the same path as the industrial cider-makers, presumably in
pursuit of what they perceive as providing the best return for
shareholders.
Mark

[michael lewis]

Of course, there is no reason why they cannot be making cider for others, under contract, and using different ingredients and processes for them.    I also know that a few years ago the got the contract to produce Bulmers Traditional, when Bulmers stopped making it themselves.  Unfortunately, they found it impossible to replicate using real fruit!   Cheers   Mick Lewis       --- On Wed, 10/11/10, Jez Howat <jez....@btinternet.com> wrote:

All the best   Jez

[Gabe Cook]

As an ex-Westons employee I am shocked and dismayed by the level of antipathy towards the company.  Westons are the fifth biggest producer in the country, yet it is commendable that this family owned, sustainably grown business is still able to make the vast majority of their from cider from fresh juice fermentations.   

 

Are there any ingredients on there that are particularly suprising? Glucose to raise OG, sugar for sweetening, malic/lactic to adjust acid, SO2 as a preservative, yeast for controlled fermentation.  I bet a great deal of the subscibers to this forum use, or haved used one or more of these ingredients.  These are the simple, basic tools of the trade that are necssitated to make cider on any great scale.

 

To be honest this is misses the point.  We as a cider industry, from the world's biggest cider maker at one end, to the wealth of craft scale producers at the other end, create a spectrum of different ciders and products aimed at different demographics.  Our goal is the same - to produce quality drinks and to raise the profile of cider.  We all have our own opinions of what constitutes 'quality'; one might say it is a commercial product which goes through stringent QA and QC processes to ensure that the cider meets the highest standards. Others will state that juice content is the most important criterion.  I think that as long as we have passion for our industry, our products and our heritage, regardless of our scale of operation, this all goes towards imprioving the perception of cider as a drink of value and quality.

 

Even if the products created by the commercial cider makers might not be everyone's palette, there can be no denying the contribution the big boys make to the cider industry, with the benefits felt by many.  Thousands of acres of cider orchards are being planted at the moment to supply fruit to the likes of Bulmers, Gaymers, Thatchers and Westons.  These orchards are critical to the local, rural economies in which they are situated as well as being a far more biodiverse alternative to an arable monoculture.  Secondly, the NACM, comprising of commercial producers and craft scale producers (through the three affiliations - 3 Counties, SWECA and Welsh Perry & Cider Soc) work extermemly hard at a strategic level to ensure that the preferential duty rate experienced by cider makers is mainatened in the face of strong opposition from the certain sectors of the beer industry.  The NACM also strives to ensure that the 7,000 litre duty exemption benefited by so many craft scale producers is also upheld.

 

Diversity of producers and products is what makes the cider industry so unique and should celebrated rather than becoming an opportunity to ridicule another member.

 

[David Llewellyn]

Can I just repeat an analogy/opinion which I made in a post some time ago: 

 

If the word ‘wine’ were allowed to be ‘hijacked’ (worldwide) in the way that the word ‘cider’ has been, and if all the strict regulations governing how wine must be made and labelled, were dropped (to mirror the current situation with cider) – this would allow for the same kind of manufacturing practices now the norm in ‘cidermaking’ to become widespread in winemaking.  The cost of producing ‘wine’ would plummet, there would be a world mega-glut of grapes, and the grape-growing industry would be destroyed. 

A new term – ‘real wine’ – might be coined (!), and the producers of ‘real wine’ would have a very difficult job competing with the ‘industrial wine’ products.  It might take some years for the consuming public to accept the ‘new style’ of wine, but when it is a fraction of the price of ‘real wine’, and with clever marketing, it would just follow the road cider has taken. 

Then, perhaps, years later when ‘wine’ develops a reputation for being cheap and nasty, it can reinvent itself with some clever advertising and a higher ‘premium’ price (tongue slightly in cheek, but serious nevertheless). 

 

David L.

www.fruitandvine.com

 

---

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[Ray Blockley]

Hi Gabe,

 

Your opinion is welcomed.

 

But from my perspective and so speaking on my own behalf, I don't think that anyone on here is "ridiculing another member". Weston's (AFAIK?) are not a member of *this* group. And if they were I would trust that they would take any criticism on the chin and answer the questions / criticisms posed by members of this group.

 

I have three main arguments with Weston's: 1. quantative ingredients labelling; 2. juice content; and 3. tying pub estates to their products only.

 

Their ingredients are not surprising so why don't they declare them openly and honestly on all their products? As to doing deals to tie-in pub estates at the exclusion of all other cider makers, how is that going to help craft cider producers who often survive by the "Guest Cider" market? If Weston's were truly interested in helping to preserve  "a spectrum of different ciders and products aimed at different demographics" then why are they actively and busily slamming that door in the "spectrums" face by tie-ing up pub estates?

 

Local to us, Weston's have dome some very aggressive deals with local pub chains where the same thing is happening - pub landlords / managers are scared of trying a local craft cider as a guest because they have been told they cannot by their overseers, and so all we find in the local pubs are the Weston's "usual suspects".

 

Example: Our CAMRA branch recently (Sept 2010) started a survey of all the pubs in Nottingham and for this year, included the provision of "real" cider and perry into the survey.  

 

They visited all of the pubs in the Nottingham Branch area and found 111 pubs serving real ale.

They only found 33 pubs serving 'real' cider of which Weston's products were the *only* ciders available in 30 out of the 33 pubs.

That is great news for Weston's shareholders but not for the discerning public or real cider drinker.

 

I don't add glucose to my ciders - neither do I add water! SO2 additions and acidity adjustment by adding bittersweet or sharp fruit are fine - nothing new there.

 

"Family owned" and "traditional" are now meaningless terms as far as cider is concerned. Just like "Premium" they mean nothing outside of marketing and ad-men speak. Likewise what does "fresh juice fermentations" actually mean? That the juice is fermented to a high ABV by adding loads of sugar / glucose syrup / maize or corn syrup and then split with water, levelled out with chemicals and then pasteurised / sterilised so that it will last for years in a pub? Yes, I have visited many pub cellars and looked at the "Use By" dates on boxes of Weston's Old Rosie; Scrumpy; Country Perry; etc.

 

Like many folk on here, I am also a producer member of the 3 Counties and the WPCS.

 

I also agree 100% with David's analogy.

 

Cheers,

 

Ray.

 

http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

[Gabe Cook]

Hi Ray

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply.  By member, I meant a member of the cider industry rather than of this specific group.  I'm sure that Westons indeed are able to take the criticism on the chin, but these are my thoughts and I do not speak on their behalf.

 

Westons, like any cider producer need only to state the abv, volume and the presence of sulphites on the label.  They also adhere exceptionally closely to the NACM's self imposed responsible labelling guidlines.  Its their perogative not to state their ingredients as long as they are within the law.  Wine is often talked about here as a panacea, but I don't see too many wines on the shelf stating the presence of isinglass, gelatin, chitin or copper sulphate.

 

The issue regarding tying of pubs is not one that I can speculate on.  I have no knowledge of sales and trade; I come from a cider making background.  I'll have to plead the 5th!

 

The 'family' element is not one to be sniffed at and isn't a gimmick.  Westons, Thatchers, Aspalls, Sheppys etc are family run businesses and by that I mean the person at the top is part of the original founding family.  The MD of Westons is the founder's great-granddaughter, her one brother runs the orchards and her other brother is the auditing director.  I think there is great value in that.  I don't think I mentioned 'traditional' in my first post, but I agree its use is ubiquitous and can be utilised in many ways.

 

I have no idea of your scale of production Ray, but one can assume you make considerably less than the several million gallons Westons make per annum?  You are in the enviable position whereby you can create an artisan cider, oozing provenance and character.  Westons aren't able to make that product due to their size, but what they do is make a drink that is as close in approximation to a traditional(!), west country cider that is possible.  And to do this they have to use different methods from smaller producers. 

 

Again, I highlight the difference and the diversity.  Westons' USP is very different from your USP.  The cider Westons make is very different from the cider you make.  Some people prefer a brand; a cider they can trust every time, such as Old Rosie.  To achieve this, adjustments need to be made to the cider.  I'm not sure which 'chemicals' are invloved here; just acid, sugar and water.  A 100% juice cider appeals to other people.  Knowledge of the craft scale producers amongst the general public is slightly limited by the relatively small volumes being produced and lack of exposure, but this is changing and where the likes of CAMRA, 3 Counties etc do an excellent job in demonstrating the point of difference to other ciders to provide the public with an opportunity to try something different.

 

I would say the majority of the population probably prefer a sweeter drink to the naturally dry ciders produced from craft producers.  It is the role of the craft scale producer to educate and demonstrate how apple variety, tannin and acidity are as (if not more) important to flavour profile than pure sugar content.  Or the cider maker has to add sugar to their cider to sweeten it up.  Which isn't so different from a bigger producer anyway.

 

With regards to pastuerisation or sterile filtration, I'm not quite sure what the issue is?  Bottle conditioning first appeared several centuries ago because it was understood that it reduced the likelihood of the cider becoming foul.  I think that these methods are a continuation of that process.     

You might be horrified to hear that I am a craft scale producer in my own right, although I'm only making 100 gallons per year.  I enjoying making and drinking my own ciders as I take great pride in the cider heritage of the area I come from.  But I also enjoy cider from other craft producers and larger producers alike depending upon the situation and the occasion.

 

Thanks

 

Gabe 

[Tim]

Quote: but what they do is make a drink that is as close in approximation to a traditional(!), west country cider that is possible. 

 

Point me at it, I have never found anything made by Westons that could be remotely compared to Traditional West Country Cider.

 

Tim in Dorset

 

 

 

---

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Gabe Cook

Sent: 11 November 2010 13:38
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

--

[Gabe Cook]

Hi Tim

 

I think the Vintage Organic is a pretty good drink, as is the Oak Conditioned Extra Dry, Herefordshire Perry (made from perry pears!), Bounds Brand Scrumpy or 1st Quality.  Some really good ciders.  Give them a try next time you see one of them.

 

Cheers

 

Gabe  

[Vicky]

Hi Gabe,

I've tried them all at some point, reasonable drinks they may if the only alternative is lager but a good cider to me?  No.  The perry I find very thin and insipid but each to their own of course.

I note Weston's are now producing a "pear cider" this is probably the term that irritates me the most.  Cider = apples and whilst I have often explained that perry is like cider but made with pears I would never use this terminology for the end product.  I'm not sure why the aversion to "perry".

More ingredient listings, this time their cider with rasperry (no I didn't buy any this time) - this at least appears to be largely apple juice.

Apple juice, raspberry juice from concentrate (11%), water, glucose syrup, sugar, carbon dioxide, acidity regulators: malic acid and lactic acid, preservative E224 (sulphites), yeast

Cheers all,
Vicky

 

Gabe  

[Cheshire Matt]

Pear Cider/Perry issues. I take the view that if it's not made from
perry pears, then it's not perry. For example, Babycham, Lambrini etc
al - they are an alcoholic pear flavoured drink with some distant
connection to the actual fruit. Very much in the same way that Westons,
Koppaberg, Magners, Gaymers etc have their Pear Cider.

The rest of this discussion is decrying calling the diluted glucose
Magners, Westons etc apple drinks "cider". Yet here we have the
perfect opportunity to claim Perry as being pure 100% juice made from
perry pears - and allow the fizzy imitations to have this new-fangled,
made-up name of "Pear Cider". Yes, it's a duff name, but it's a duff drink.

And yes, I am completely confused myself on this issue, as I make a
drink from pears that I don't think are perry pears, but I use 100%
fruit/pear juice. Is it therefore Perry, or Pear Cider???!

I have to confess to pushing the "Pear Cider" element for 2 reasons: 1)
the masses tended to recognise that as a name (although Perry is gaining
recognition with the uneducated masses) and 2) it's not from perry
pears, so I don't want to offend the genuine folks on here, in
herefordshire etc, who make it properly by trying to pass off my stuff
as the genuine article.

Matt

Vicky wrote:
> Hi Gabe,
>
> I've tried them all at some point, reasonable drinks they may if the
> only alternative is lager but a good cider to me? No. The perry I
> find very thin and insipid but each to their own of course.
>
> I note Weston's are now producing a "pear cider" this is probably the
> term that irritates me the most. Cider = apples and whilst I have
> often explained that perry is like cider but made with pears I would
> never use this terminology for the end product. I'm not sure why the
> aversion to "perry".
>
> More ingredient listings, this time their cider with rasperry (no I
> didn't buy any this time) - this at least appears to be largely apple
> juice.
>
> Apple juice, raspberry juice from concentrate (11%), water, glucose
> syrup, sugar, carbon dioxide, acidity regulators: malic acid and
> lactic acid, preservative E224 (sulphites), yeast
>
> Cheers all,
> Vicky
>
>
> On 11 November 2010 14:16, Gabe Cook <cidero...@googlemail.com

> <mailto:cidero...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
>
> Hi Tim
>
> I think the Vintage Organic is a pretty good drink, as is the Oak
> Conditioned Extra Dry, Herefordshire Perry (made from perry
> pears!), Bounds Brand Scrumpy or 1st Quality. Some really good
> ciders. Give them a try next time you see one of them.
>
> Cheers
>
> Gabe
>
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[Vicky]

Dare I add the term pydar / pider to the discussion?  Mick you're best to tell the history of this!

Vicky

[greg l.]

"Just acid, sugar and water"

I don't think there is any just about adding water to a drink like
cider, and "adjusting" sg with sugar when the abv ends up lower is no
justification. If you add substantial quantities of sugar and water to
apple juice you no longer have cider, but a manufactured apple
beverage. Allowing these drinks to be called cider was a big mistake,
they should be called what they are - alcopops.

Greg

> >> On 11 November 2010 14:16, Gabe Cook <ciderolog...@googlemail.com<mailto:

> >> ciderolog...@googlemail.com>> wrote:
>
> >>    Hi Tim
> >>         I think the Vintage Organic is a pretty good drink, as is the Oak
> >>    Conditioned Extra Dry, Herefordshire Perry (made from perry
> >>    pears!), Bounds Brand Scrumpy or 1st Quality.  Some really good
> >>    ciders.  Give them a try next time you see one of them.
> >>         Cheers
> >>         Gabe
> >>    --     You received this message because you are subscribed to the
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> >>    Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
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> >> >.
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[Dick Dunn]

On Thu, Nov 11, 2010 at 06:12:11PM +0000, Cheshire Matt wrote:
> Pear Cider/Perry issues. I take the view that if it's not made from

> perry pears, then it's not perry...

But then who grants the blessing that a particular variety is a "perry
pear"? Wouldn't this be like saying that Kentish style cider isn't
really "cider" because cider apples aren't used? Plus, there would
always be ambiguous cases.

...[snip]...

> And yes, I am completely confused myself on this issue, as I make a
> drink from pears that I don't think are perry pears, but I use 100%
> fruit/pear juice. Is it therefore Perry, or Pear Cider???!

It's perry! (IMNSHO)
No sense getting "pear cider" tangled up with something that's made
entirely from pears.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[greg l.]

I think pear cider is a useful term because I don't consider dessert
pears suitable for a stand alone drink, at least the pears from my
place. The juice just doesn't have enough character or flavour. They
are useful for blending into my cider, The last was 20% pear, this
season probably 10%. A 50/50 blend might be called pear cider, but
would taste mainly of cider.

Greg

[Ray Blockley]

Re: Perry / Pear Cider.

This argument goes around and comes around :-)

The term "pear cider" is clearly ok for Joe Soap to get a gist of what he /
she is drinking and some understanding of the process of making it. When
working behind the bar at festivals these days, very few folks now come up
and ask for "perry" - if they do, they are usually in-the-know. Conversely,
many folks know what perry is, but think that "pear cider" is the new
terminology that they should use.

To my uneducated perspective, any drink made from pears is "perry": true
perry pears through to dessert and culinary pears. To say it isn't perry if
made from anything but true perry pears is to say that my 100%
fermented-apple-juice-drink is not "cider" because I don't have access to
and therefore don't use a majority of cider-apple varieties. Which of course
(IMO) is complete and utter tosh :-) So I'm with Dick on that one, as are
probably most of the Kentish and Suffolk cider makers....

A perry that says "made with 100% XXXXX perry pears" on the label I know is
going to be different from one that says "made with a 100% blend of
Conference, William and Black Worcester pears", but to my mind they are both
perries...? Just different styles, flavour profiles, etc. etc.

By legal definition in the UK, I think I'm correct in saying that perry can
still be called perry when made with up to 25% of apple juice. So who is to
say that some of the excellent perries we take for granted as being "Perry"
do not contain a proportion of apple juice? Likewise, cider can contain up
to 25% pear juice and still be legally defined as "cider".

Lets all celebrate anything made with pure fruit juice (apple or pear) and
try not get too nit-picky about 'labels' - but let's push for clear
ingredients labelling!

Then we clearly know what we are drinking and what to put on our labels.

Cheers,

Ray.

http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

----- Original Message -----
From: "Dick Dunn" <rc...@talisman.com>
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Thursday, November 11, 2010 7:24 PM
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients

[NB]

For the UK:
Just as any apple may make cider, so any pear can make perry. 25% of either may be used in the other when considering which duty class applies.
NACM prefers the use of the term perry but has been advised that no court would ban 'pear cider' since its use is justified by consumer understanding.
There is no problem in declaring 'perry made solely from perry pears' provided of course that QUID (quantitative ingredients declaration) is observed, as necessary.
Finally, mandatory ingredients labelling is held up in the EU by failure to agree universal application. The cider & fruit wine industry is ready to act in this.

Best
Nick

[GREG DAVIES]

Gabe
Pasteurisation and micro-filtration create a dead cider with a lacklustre taste and do not qualify as real cider. I hope you are aiming a little higher with your own cider production! If ingredients labelling does ever come to pass you may get a surprise regarding your favourite mass producers.
 

---

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 13:37:48 +0000
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients
From: cidero...@googlemail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[GREG DAVIES]

Perhaps you should take a visit to a real "family" cider maker, I would suggest a trip to someone like Wilkins in Somerset. They have been making cider for generations,  their ingredients; Apples !
 

---

Date: Thu, 11 Nov 2010 10:37:59 +0000
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients
From: cidero...@googlemail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[GREG DAVIES]

I wonder what old henry Weston would make of this crap!
 

---

Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2010 21:42:16 +0000
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Weston's ingredients
From: vgo...@gmail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Hi all,

On a 6 hour train journey I confess to drinking a can of M&S Weston's cider.  M&S are quite keen on ingredients lists which was as follows, I don't believe I've seen Weston's own labelled products sport this amount of detail.

Water
Apple juice from concentrate
Glucose syrup
Sugar
Carbon dioxide
Lactic acid
Malic acid
E224, Sulphites
Yeast

All slow fermented and matured to develop a full character or so it says on the can.  This seems in stark contrast to Weston's own description here http://www.westons-cider.co.uk/About-Us/Cider-Making/ which implies full juice from their own apples only.


Vicky

[Tim]

Now known as Rotating Henry he turns in his grave so much.

 

Marshwood Vale Cider.

“The juice, the whole juice and nothing but the juice.”

 

---

[David Llewellyn]

Gabe wrote:

“Westons aren't able to make that product due to their size, but what they do is make a drink that is as close in approximation to a traditional(!), west country cider that is possible.  And to do this they have to use different methods from smaller producers.”

 

 

Surely one cannot seriously claim to do this using the ingredients Vicky listed below?!?  I don’t see how either a manufacturer or an apologist for a manufacturer could credibly stand over an assertion like that.

David L.

 

Hi all,

Vicky wrote:

“On a 6 hour train journey I confess to drinking a can of M&S Weston's cider.  M&S are quite keen on ingredients lists which was as follows, I don't believe I've seen Weston's own labelled products sport this amount of detail.

Water
Apple juice from concentrate
Glucose syrup
Sugar
Carbon dioxide
Lactic acid
Malic acid
E224, Sulphites
Yeast

--

[David Llewellyn]

Greg wrote:

“Pasteurisation and micro-filtration create a dead cider with a lacklustre taste and do not qualify as real cider.”

 

 

Greg, or anybody else,

 

What would be the general feeling among true ‘Real Cider’ advocates in the group about a pure juice cider in which the fermentation is stopped by micro-filtration to leave it sweet, and then bottled with carbonation.  My own simple method is to ferment to dryness and bottle condition, but I am attracted to the idea of the above method to produce a sweet pure juice cider without the problems and uncertainty of keeving.  How ‘real’ would such a cider be, in your opinion?

 

David L.

 

 

[greg l.]

In winemaking the scale of the operation doesn't make much difference
to the process, except perhaps the degree of stabilisation of the
wine. Some of the top wines in Australia are made by the biggest
producers, I don't think scale is any excuse for changing the whole
process. Big producers use filtration to stabilise their bulk wines,
but it generally strips away a lot of the character from the wine. The
largest molecules are the first to go which includes the polyphenols
etc. You won't introduce any bad flavours with sterile filtering but
you may remove some of the good stuff. Also I think you need to be
able to bottle aseptically to be confident it won't referment. Much of
the cheap wine you buy has been filtered to within an inch of its
life, compare a cheap wine to an expensive one and that will give you
an idea of what filtering does.

Greg

[JezH]

This seems like an appropriate time to draw the groups attention back
to its mission statement (as drawn up by the admins when setting the
group and website up):

"Craft cider (to include perry) is not here defined but is recognised
to be a fusion of the best of traditional practices with the best of
modern orcharding and fermentation science. In general, a craft cider
may be expected to have a high juice content (typically >85% and to be
made with simple technology and few additives, appropriate to the
given style of cider. It is recognised that no one style of cider
(cask, bottle, carbonated or otherwise) is inherently superior to any
other.

The Cider Workshop respects and encourages all those who work for the
benefit of craft cider, whether as individuals, producer or consumer
organisations, even though their views may differ."

Whilst taking Weston's to task for its ingredients, it ought to be
said that they are better than some... okay, they are worse than
others - but don't forget that some *real* 'traditional west country
cider' is responsible for a lot of people turning away from cider -
which, in my opinion, the factory ciders in part dealt with by
producing (at least) a consistent product... Ok - complex situations
cannot be made simple, and I am not an expert on history, but we ought
to be open to hearing both sides.

To my mind, a real (full juice) cider can be both filtered, carbonated
and pasteurised and remain a full juice, real cider... I am sure that
Burrow Hill and New Forest Cider has to be both in order to be sold in
Waitrose (happy to be wrong about this).

All the best

Jez

[Jez Howat]

David L wrote: “What would be the general feeling among true ‘Real Cider’ advocates in the group about a pure juice cider in which the fermentation is stopped by micro-filtration to leave it sweet, and then bottled with carbonation.  My own simple method is to ferment to dryness and bottle condition, but I am attracted to the idea of the above method to produce a sweet pure juice cider without the problems and uncertainty of keeving.  How ‘real’ would such a cider be, in your opinion?”

 

This year I have found that generally I have been asked by 8 out of 10 festivals whether I produce a medium or sweet cider. Having worked on the bar for an evening at one of them (and attending a few more as a punter), the mediums and sweets generally have it in terms of numbers and popularity. The one I worked at (Portsmouth Beerex) had some 15-16 ciders and 5-6 perries (plus one weird 50/50 cider perry!!). Of all the ciders, mine was the only dry.

 

Therefore, in order to sell more cider, this is something I need to think about for 2011. Money is not the driving force behind me selling my cider, so I have resisted and would certainly not produce anything beyond medium. I have also looked at ways of producing a sweeter cider without the need to add sweetener. And my conclusion is, apart from keeving, filtering/pasteurising and bottling is the simplest method... in fact, its probably simpler to do than keeving (albeit that I would have to send it off to be done by a third party company). I don’t think it would stop my cider being ‘real’ at all – it would still be full juice, fermented and wouldn’t contain sweeteners.

 

Its not that I have a problem with sweeteners – I think this is probably THE easiest way of sweetening cider – and I suspect I will do it at some point next year. But I am attracted to the process that you describe if its cost effective, although would probably prefer pasteurisation as opposed to filtering.

 

All the best

 

Jez

 

 

[Ray Blockley]

Copied directly from CAMRA's website:

 

"The most common reasons a cider or perry is not considered to be real are that it is carbonated, pasteurised, micro-filtered, or concentrate juice has been used. "

Now apart from the fact that you could blow some house-sized holes through what it says on here and what happens in reality (ie: Broadoak Perry on sale at CAMRA festivals but openly made from concentrate; Weston's products "hot-filled" which *may* or *may not* pasteurise some of their boxed products...), the one that stands out clearly is micro-filtering.

 

I am with Grag L on this one - fitering does remove more than just partcilse & yeast cells. Like zillions of others on here, I made wine in bulk, in particular about 50 gallons of Damson or Damson & Elderberry wine per year in my past life. One year I bought a pressure-filter because it was the trendy thing to do - and the wine consequently suffered in quality and taste. So it was sold to a friend. Unfiltered it was back to it's robust full self.

 

Personally I am horrified by this apparent shift towards sweeter ciders being seen as the *norm*. What I expect to find at any festival is a balance of flavours and styles. Plotted on a curve I'd expect to see a "standard deviation curve" which would peak at Medium-style ciders; sadly too many festivals seem to have this plot skewed dramatically towards the sweet.

 

Why? Is it because the folks ordering and selling the cider have no concept of what real cider / perry is? Or is it that they are under increasing pressure to sell out and make as much money as possible and believe that selling the lowest common denominator product (sweet ciders) is the way to achieve this? And believe me, I know exactly what the latter situation is like.

 

As I have frequently said on here, the majority of folks who come and ask for a "sweet" cider and are prepared to let you help "zone them in" are very happy with a medium cider and rarely come back and ask for sweeter fare, instead they usually try something a bit drier.

 

Just my two penn'orth, of course. :-)

 

Cheers,

 

Ray.

 

[Cheshire Matt]

Ray - my take on the "punters @ beer fests looking for sweet ciders" is
probably due to a number of things.

Magners effect is prime, of course - ie people realised cider wasn't
either a) farmhouse acetic scrump, b) super strong white lightning tramp
juice and was in fact c) middle class and trendy again.

With all the current natural/green/eco/you name it trends, punters will
gravitate towards the most natural/green/eco product _if_ it's at a
similar price. And actually (shoot me down if you like) a large
proportion of these eco-seekers are actually ignorant of the facts a lot
of the time... So why should they be any different about (eg Westons)
cider?

Then the "sweet, not dry" is a logical combination of the 2 above
facts. Actually, a lot of the newer cider drinkers (who haven't been
educated by your good self at Nottingham beer fest) don't like the dry
because they've probably had a bad experience of high tannin, and so
"play safe". and go for sweet

Now couple that "play safe" mindset with a beer festival where they
_know_ they're going to have to get through a lot of drinks in the
evening, _and_ cider @ 6%+ (compared to the real ales around 4%) means
they have a subconscious "I'm going to have to ration myself on the
ciders, can't have too much, so my first choice will be something I know
I'll be safe with: I'll have sweet please."

My view is I really thing folks might be being led up the garden path on
the demand for medium/sweet cider. I think the data source you're
getting it from (ie in the main, beer fests, where people know it'll be
a heavy night) is very skewed in a direction that we haven't discussed
(we have discussed about discerning palettes and younger drinkers). My
counter to that is Ray's experience with being able to educate them.

So, I'm going to stick with my dry, ta. It's what I like, and at the
moment, it's not as tho I can't shift it. When I do reach the stage of
numerous polys of dry not being sold because everyone wants medium, then
I'll add an artificial sweetener. JOKING!!! :)

[Ray Blockley]

Couple of thoughts...

Matt wrote:
*snip*

> Then the "sweet, not dry" is a logical combination of the 2 above facts.
> Actually, a lot of the newer cider drinkers (who haven't been educated by
> your good self at Nottingham beer fest) don't like the dry because they've
> probably had a bad experience of high tannin, and so "play safe". and go
> for sweet
>
> Now couple that "play safe" mindset with a beer festival where they _know_
> they're going to have to get through a lot of drinks in the evening, _and_
> cider @ 6%+ (compared to the real ales around 4%) means they have a
> subconscious "I'm going to have to ration myself on the ciders, can't have
> too much, so my first choice will be something I know I'll be safe with:
> I'll have sweet please."

Thing is, most of the sweet(er) ciders are *much* higher ABV than the dry /
medium ones. At Nottingham for instance, the very dry to dry ranged from
6.0% to 6.5%; Broadoak's stuff was all very sweet and 7.5%.

I agree about the high-tannin, but not all dry / medium-dry / medium ciders
are high tannin, ie; eastern-counties style. So is the problem tannin and
not sweetness...? As has been said on here before, many folk's palates seem
to have difficulty in separating the "dryness" from tannins compared to the
"dryness" from lack of sugar / sweetness.

[David Llewellyn]

Thanks Jez, and others, for the opinions.

Regarding filtering, am I correct in thinking that most if not all white
wines which are not dry (ie have either been stopped at desired sweetness or
have been fermented to dryness and back-sweetened with grape juice at
bottling) have been microfiltered to guarantee no yeast cells? If so, are
these wines considered in some way 'not real'/not authentic?
I do agree that filtering takes more than one would like out of a drink.
This struck me first when I saw how much colour the filtering process
removes from a red wine.

Regarding peoples' tastes, I have done tastings of my cider with groups of
people, comparing a dry cider with the exact same cider sweetened moderately
with sucralose (ca 40mg/litre). Note that my dry cider is neither
particularly tannic nor acidic. What I find is that between 80% and 90% of
people invariably prefer the sweetened. When they're tasting it they were
neither told the difference between the ciders, nor what they had in common.

David L.

________________________________________
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Jez Howat
Sent: 13 November 2010 13:27
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients

David L wrote: "What would be the general feeling among true 'Real Cider'
advocates in the group about a pure juice cider in which the fermentation is
stopped by micro-filtration to leave it sweet, and then bottled with
carbonation. My own simple method is to ferment to dryness and bottle
condition, but I am attracted to the idea of the above method to produce a
sweet pure juice cider without the problems and uncertainty of keeving. How
'real' would such a cider be, in your opinion?"

This year I have found that generally I have been asked by 8 out of 10
festivals whether I produce a medium or sweet cider. Having worked on the
bar for an evening at one of them (and attending a few more as a punter),
the mediums and sweets generally have it in terms of numbers and popularity.
The one I worked at (Portsmouth Beerex) had some 15-16 ciders and 5-6
perries (plus one weird 50/50 cider perry!!). Of all the ciders, mine was
the only dry.

Therefore, in order to sell more cider, this is something I need to think
about for 2011. Money is not the driving force behind me selling my cider,
so I have resisted and would certainly not produce anything beyond medium. I
have also looked at ways of producing a sweeter cider without the need to
add sweetener. And my conclusion is, apart from keeving,
filtering/pasteurising and bottling is the simplest method... in fact, its
probably simpler to do than keeving (albeit that I would have to send it off
to be done by a third party company). I don't think it would stop my cider

being 'real' at all - it would still be full juice, fermented and wouldn't
contain sweeteners.

Its not that I have a problem with sweeteners - I think this is probably THE
easiest way of sweetening cider - and I suspect I will do it at some point

[Stephen Hayes]

I think a lot of this is opinion and philosophy , and I can see both sides.

I am currently at the Radisson Blu hotel in Edinburgh for a medical conference, I checked the mini bar hoping perhaps for McEwans 80 shilling or other regional brew-alas, the choice was Peroni (Italian) or Yankee Bud. OK, not my choice, but presumably the hotel knows is customers.

Its the public, stoopid, they have this thing called free will. No point my having strong opinions about what people ought to prefer when it comes to matters of taste.

Bone dry cider is 'natural' but water is even more natural. As Andrew has said, what we do involves artifice. I like sweet cider, perhaps my favourite is a fizzy medium dry. I'm hoping to make some again by blending early season bone dry with racked cider from late picked and stored cold fermented sweets and bittersweets, but wouldn't rule out fitering. A full juice cider made with a few adjuncts or tricks will surely still far excell the stuff in the shops.

Its all good if well made.

Cheers

Stephen

[Andrew Lea]

On 13/11/2010 23:42, Stephen Hayes wrote:
> I think a lot of this is opinion and philosophy , and I can see both
> sides.
>

> Bone dry cider is 'natural' but water is even more natural. As Andrew
> has said, what we do involves artifice.

Indeed. I have written elsewhere that "there is nothing natural about
cider and it's silly to pretend that there is. It is a product of man's
ingenuity just as much as a steam engine or a cuckoo clock. So don't be
frightened to use just as much technology as you feel you need to make a
superb product". That is my philosophy.

Everyone has to set their own limits on this, which will depend on the
reasons you make cider. Is it for yourself, for your family, for a small
niche market or for a large supermarket deal? The solutions you choose
will depend on the answer to those questions and it will be a different
one for everybody.

To me, all this discussion of what cider 'should' be and what is 'real'
or 'bad' or 'wrong' is pretty much as pointless as the old medieval
theologians discussing the number of angels that could dance on the head
of a pin. I have my own opinions of course, and I know what I personally
like or dislike and the things I would or wouldn't do, and the things
about the industry which annoy me, but those thoughts are no more valid
than anyone else's. (I worked for 25 years in the chocolate industry
where exactly the same sort of endless debate about definitions goes on,
so this isn't unique to cider!)

Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[greg l.]

With regard to filtering of wine, it is a fact that most of the wine
made in the world is sterile filtered, but then most of the wine is
sold at very low prices (below 5 pounds/bottle.) Only about 15% of
wine gets premium prices, and it is in this end of the market that
excessive filtering is avoided. I don't know all the details of making
sweet premium table or dessert wine but I presume it must be sterile
filtered, though sweet german rieslings have been made for a long time
so they must use ageing and settling of yeasts in cold conditions.
Makers of premium dry wine avoid harsh filtering but usually there is
some filtering to remove gross impurities.

I find any sweetness at all a bit much in cider, in Australia all
commercial ciders are sweetened.

Last night we had a party with 20+ teenagers and the main drink was
cider. There is a cider called "Seeds" under the tooheys extra dry
label, made in NZ. Tooheys is part of the Lion Nathan group, from NZ.
I suppose since exports of apples from NZ to Oz are forbidden it is
their way of selling apples over here. It didn't taste that bad for a
mass market fizz, I suspect mostly apple juice used since that is the
whole point, not too sweet. The courts recently ruled that for tax
purposes cider has to be made substantially from AJ, but water and
sugar are allowed. No detail on what that means but not a topic the
cider industry would want publicised. Not much English cider is sold
here I think because it fails the test of being substantially AJ, I
would presume that would mean more than 50%.

It is interesting that in this age of cheap travel the cider drinking
habits of English teens seem to be influencing teens here in Oz.

Greg

[David Llewellyn]

By 'sterile filtering', do you mean the same as what has been referred to in
previous posts as 'micro filtering'?

David L.

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of greg l.
Sent: 14 November 2010 01:16
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Filtering + Sweetening (was : Weston's
ingredients)

Greg

--

[greg l.]

Sorry David, I am not an expert on filtering but I have talked with
winemakers at large wineries and filtering is a major part of the
process. Stabilising wine is very important because the retailer has
to be confident the wine can sit on the shelf without deteriorating. I
don't see the same emphasis on stabilising cider, but I guess the time
frames and volumes are different.
By sterile filtering I mean fine enough to remove yeast and bacteria
but maybe others here can tell us the different size filters. The
winery where I work is after the premium market and only uses
cartridge filters with the paper elements. Other makers of premium
wine claim not to filter at all but you take these claims with a grain
of salt, I think it is often just marketing.
Greg

[Dick Dunn]

On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 06:57:41PM -0800, greg l. wrote:
...[snip]...

> By sterile filtering I mean fine enough to remove yeast and bacteria

> but maybe others here can tell us the different size filters...

Greg - right, that would add a lot to the discussion--as in, what do we
mean, -quantitatively-, by filtering? Are we talking 5 micron or sub-
micron?

Maybe we can get an expert or two :-) to indicate the levels at which
one filters out yeast, bacteria, or whatever, contrasted with filtering
out the character. I don't know but I could stand to be educated.

[greg l.]

I think sterile filtering is considered to be better than pasteurising
if you can bottle without recontaminating. Pasteurising can change the
whole flavour while filtering only removes stuff. Heat is one of the
deadly enemies of wine/cider, except if you consider madeira. If you
like dry cider luckily you don't have to worry about either.

Greg

[Andrew Lea]

On 14/11/2010 03:47, Dick Dunn wrote:
> On Sat, Nov 13, 2010 at 06:57:41PM -0800, greg l. wrote:
> ...[snip]...
>> By sterile filtering I mean fine enough to remove yeast and bacteria
>> but maybe others here can tell us the different size filters...
>
> Greg - right, that would add a lot to the discussion--as in, what do we
> mean, -quantitatively-, by filtering? Are we talking 5 micron or sub-
> micron?

Sub-micron. Sterile filtering in the beverage industry (not
biomedicine) is taken to mean using a depth or membrane filter of pore
size typically < 0.45 micron. This removes yeast and most bacteria.
Exceptionally < 0.2 micron is used for absolute safety. However, in
itself a filter is not enough for sterile bottling. The filter must of
course be sterile but so must everything downstream and the filling has
to be conducted under a positive pressure of sterile air, certainly in
the case of cider. In wine with a much higher alcohol level and hence
greater antimicrobial protection this may not need to be so rigorous.
(Greg I believe German wines sweetened with sussreserve have been
sterile filtered - and possibly hot filled - for at least the last 40
years. The late great Prof Maynard Amerine from UC Davis called it "The
Magic of the Millipore"!).

As regards removal of colour and flavour by depth and membrane filters,
this is of course true but can be mitigated to some extent by
recirculating the product through the filter until the filters are
saturated and in equilibrium with the liquid before allowing the
filtrate to direct to the filling line.

In addition to that type of conventional filtration using depth fibre
sheets or polymer membranes, there is also the increasing use of
cross-flow ultrafiltration where the liquid flows tangentially to a very
large membrane surface under pressure rather than being pushed through
it, and effectively 'leaks' through the pores. This is typically used
for liquids with quite high suspended solids but can also provide
near-sterile filtration in one pass depending on membrane cut-off size.

> [Greg] I think sterile filtering is considered to be better than pasteurising

> if you can bottle without recontaminating. Pasteurising can change the
> whole flavour while filtering only removes stuff.

Well it's as broad as its long. Tight filtration can also affect flavour
as discussed and also tends to remove colloidal material (eg pectins)
which may remove some body and mouthfeel and may make the cider feel
'thinner'. The fact is if you want a sugar-sweetened cider without
keeving then you have no option but one or the other. It's a matter of
choosing the 'least worst' commensurate with what you can afford. HTST
flow-through pasteurisation / chilling is the best industrial technique.
Batch pasteurisation is low tech and cheap and reliable hence more
likely to be used by craft makers. Its worst flavour effects can be
mitigated by SO2 and it hasn't stopped me and others winning prizes e.g.
at Bath and West and other shows.

[NB]

I'd just add for clarity that 'depth' filters are older technology - either as a fibre mat or pressurised bed of some inert powder, eg: kieselguhr - but still entirely relevant and used.
They differ from membrane filters in that the 'path' size thro the medium is greater than microbial size and microbes are removed by adsorption onto the surface of the particles or fibres that make up the filter mat. Carlsson Ford EK & EKS sheets would give a 'sterile' product (no spoilage organisms) if properly used. High throughputs could be achieved.
Membrane filters act as sieves of pretty precise pore size and are thus easily blocked. Ultra-filters using the high flux technology described by Andrew are the most versatile - but hideously expensive capital cost and high power consumption.
The downside of cheap and cheerful depth filters is, as already described, their propensity to adsorb also the larger molecules that characterise the taste and mouthfeel of drinks - unless first saturated by 'sacrificial' recirculation.
Horses for courses.

Best
Nick

[Andrew Lea]

On 14/11/2010 14:22, NB wrote:
> I'd just add for clarity[re filter discussion]......

I'd like to think that pun was intentional Nick ;-)

Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page

http://www.cider.org.uk

[nfcider]

Andrew,
Following this thread and the Keeving ones with interest ,I think
Keevingwise we've really cracked it this year and are on our third
keeve to bring us up to around 6000 litres,instead of bottling all up
in 75cl champagne bottles ,John wants to take a quantity say at 1015
gravity to Branded Drinks to carbonate into the 500ml beer
bottles,question,would their 5micron filtration be sufficient on a
keeved cider stability wise to eliminate the in bottle tunnel
pasteurization,thus giving you a more naturally sweet cider?
Barry

[Nick Bradstock]

More of a happy accident if I'm honest!
Nick

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 14 November 2010 15:19
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Filtering + Sweetening (was : Weston's
ingredients)

[GREG DAVIES]

David
Not real at all ! Pasteurisation, micro filtering and carbonation all have an adverse effect on cider and are excluded from the "real" definition
Greg
 

---

From: pure...@eircom.net
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients
Date: Fri, 12 Nov 2010 23:38:56 +0000

[Cornelius Traas]

So Greg,

Are you saying that the only "real" sweet cider that can carry that term is one that has been keeved?

Is there actually a definition of "real cider" apart from that less than brilliant one that CAMRA has?

Con Traas

 

The Apple Farm,

From: GREG DAVIES

To: ciderworkshop

Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 1:05 PM

[jez....@btinternet.com]

There is room for all on the group... Though I was going to ask something similar to Con. What about saccharin? Could that be considered traditional?

I think there is a difference of perception - I am thinking about the use of methods to backsweeten a dry cider for those who prefer something a little sweeter. Yes, its pandering a bit but, like David, I am keen to use as gentle a method to do so as possible.

Greg, I guess you are in the extreme club with Tim then? I'm not sure we will agree on this as it begs the question, when does a real cider stop being a real cider? I would suggest that the line is drawn at it being a full juice cider (85%+), and after that its down to personal taste...

All the best

Jez

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From: "Cornelius Traas" <c...@theapplefarm.com>

Sender: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 13:23:12 -0000

To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

ReplyTo: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients

[Nick Bradstock]

Getting dangerously close to defining things?!
Nick

[jez....@btinternet.com]

Hmm I know... That's why I stopped there and *should* have put a disclaimer at the bottom stating this is my own opinion and not that of the group:-)

In fact, other than the juice content I am fairly relaxed about the whole thing, though I haven't really formed an opinion about sweetening yet. I used to think it was the devils work, but I also don't like clinging to tradition for traditions sake so need to think it through properly.

All the best

Jez

This post is my own personal opinion and... Blah blah!

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From: "Nick Bradstock" <nick...@btinternet.com>

Sender: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 13:59:15 -0000

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ReplyTo: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Charlotte Traynor]

I've always thought that a really 'natural' method of carbonation must be to bottle the cider just before it finishes fermenting.  Obviously this becomes very impractical on a larger scale, but it's something I've been interested in trying for a while.  Is there a safe way of doing this by measuring regularly towards the end of fermentation and bottling at the appropriate SG?  It's not a a method I've ever heard talked about so I assume it's not as straightforward as this...?

Charlotte 

[Ray Blockley]

Hi Charlotte,

 

It has been discussed on here many times and very recently. Most of the detailed info is on Andrew's website. Target SG is between 1005 and 1010 depending how fizzy / sparkling / lively you like it.

 

Obviously bottle and closure types are very important, as has been discussed at length within the last 24 hours.

 

Have you had a look through the previous posts on the Ciderworkshop website?

 

Cheers,

 

Ray.

 

http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/
http://torkardcider.moonfruit.com/

[charlotte traynor]

Sorry Ray, haven't looked into it properly, it just cropped up in my
mind whilst reading posts (^_^) Will be sure to look into it when I
get the chance.

Cheers,

Charlotte

[GREG DAVIES]

Con
I never referred to sweetness of cider, if people want to use artificial sweetener or keeve that is their choice.  However I do object to micro filtering and pasteurising as these are never done to improve taste but for economic reasons at the cost of quality. The most important and definitive measure of cider should be fresh juice content, 85% seems to be most people's accepted limit.  That would exclude nearly all big producers without even looking at the various other dodgy practices they get up to.
Greg
 

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From: c...@theapplefarm.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Weston's ingredients
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 13:23:12 +0000

[Andrew Lea]

On 17/11/2010 22:53, GREG DAVIES wrote:
> Con
> I never referred to sweetness of cider, if people want to use artificial
> sweetener or keeve that is their choice. However I do object to micro
> filtering and pasteurising as these are never done to improve taste but
> for economic reasons at the cost of quality.

Greg, I rarely comment on matters of 'philosophy', preferring to stick
to technical issues, but this *is* a technical issue. Micro filtration
and pasteurisation are carried out so that added sugar does not
re-ferment. In that way they improve taste, and do not diminish it. It
has nothing to do with economics - indeed they both cost money to carry out.

I realise you are a 'dry cider only' man, but are you really saying that
you would prefer the synthetic and totally unnatural additives of
saccharin, sucralose and other intense high-tech sweeteners, over the
'natural' low-tech solutions of sugar and heat?

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Pages
www.cider.org.uk

[JezH]

Andrew, I think you said what I wanted to say... just better:-)

Looking at sweetening from a small scale perspective, my preferred
route I think is to backsweeten with apple juice - it seems to me to
be the most natural and technically gentle way of doing things (adding
a sweetener is probably the most likely route short term, as its also
the easiest route). However, in order to do this without exploding
bottles etc. I will need to pasteurise the cider.

In either case - sweetener and pasteurising - I cannot agree that this
disqualifies a cider from being 'real'. Happy to agree to disagree
though.

All the best

Jez