Bittersweet Cider Apples in the U.S.

[matt]

Hi. Does anyone know of a source for Bittersweet Cider Apples or Bulk Bittersweet Apple Cider in the U.S.? Specifically, I'm looking for a source in or close to Michigan.

Many thanks,

Matt C.

[john kerr]

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[matt]

Please provide an exact link to the page I need to visit for this inquiry. Thanks!

[Mike Beck]

Matt

In Michigan there is not much Bittersweet apples in the ground.(maybe 150 acres at best) The little bit that is grown in the state has more than likely been committed.  I usually buy every last one I can find.  There is a couple of orchards that are coming into production that may have more this year.  Private message me and I can put you on my list of folks that want them.  Fair Warning: they will be pricey,>40 cents a pound or >$7/gal.  I also have finished bittersweet cider that has been acidified with Sharp Heirloom’s (RI Greening, Spy, Baldwin) available for sale.

M. Beck

Saint Johns, MI

[CiderSupply.com]

Yes bittersweet juice...here too, depending on tannin level and brix, here in Pacific Northwest $6.75 to $12.00 per gal is typical. Being that super-high tannic juice for blending on the high price side.

But again, same problem, most juice has already been reserved.

However, there are some UK orchards that will ship juice to us. Also some juice brokers are emerging on the internet that are offshoots of big supply compainies. It is rumored that China is getting into this corner of the juice supply business.

If you find a good Western source, hang on to them.

Best regards

Chris Rylands
Cider Supply, LLC

[cidercellars.com]

Hey Mike & Matt -

Do you think there's a need for a central marketplace for cider apples/juice/finished cider? I ask, because as an importer from the UK, we've been toying with the idea of creating one to bring some additional sales opportunities to our UK orchard-based producers and help address the current market shortage of real cider apples.

Could I trouble you to look at https://cidercellars.sharetribe.com and LMK if you think the idea's got legs?

[Jannis Wegmann]

Hey Chris, could you share links to UK orchards that ship juice? 

Would be to germany for me but I am very interested in buying some bitter/bittersweet juice for blending.

You can also pm me if that's preferred!

Thanks in advance,

Jannis

[cidersupply.com]

Hi Jannis, i am traveling at the moment, but when i get back to the ranch in a couple of days i will send you the contact out of the UK.

Best regards

Chris Rylands

Cider Supply, LLC

USA

Sent via the Samsung Galaxy S7 active, an AT&T 4G LTE smartphone

-------- Original message --------

From: 'Jannis Wegmann' via Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Date: 8/10/16 7:45 AM (GMT-08:00)

To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Bittersweet Cider Apples in the U.S.

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[Warhorse Distribution LLC]

I am a wholesaler of Bittersweet Apple Juice Concentrate here in the USA. Before you get too excited, I can only sell to businesses due to FDA regulations.

The product I have is mostly Michelin and Dabinett apples, blended with many many other high-tannin apples to ensure a consistent product. Packaging is 250kg/49 gallon drums @70 brix, aseptically packaged with a 12 month shelf life, more if kept in cold storage. Actual tannin content is 1.8g/L. I can send a full spec sheet to interested parties.

Minimum order is a single drum, at $1125 plus shipping and appropriate taxes. I ship from Clackamas, Oregon. Maximum order is as much as you want. I can send entire containers of juice to you straight from the UK. Bulk order discounts are available.

Please email me if any of you are interested. My email is j c d a r l e y @ c o m c a s t.net

[Matthew Curtis]

Would you two mind PM (private messaging) each other. Each time you send a message on the board, you cause everyone on the board to receive your commentary. 

Many thanks for respecting this request,

Matt

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[Mike Beck]

There seems to be several of these web based central markets now.  Kinnek being the big one I have seen.  There is also one in NY   www.nyahcclassifieds.com and I think the Pacific North West Cider Association has put one together as well.  In the great lakes I among others keep an email list that I market too when surplus juice becomes available.  So these are good to keep people “in the know”.

 

My issue is with concentrate in general, I am not sure if concentrate by itself can make a great cider.  Did Robert Mondovi or (insert famous winemaker here) make great wine from concentrate? (doubtful)  If they could wouldn’t somebody bring Rhone grape concentrate to the port of New Jersey and re-constitute and make Rhone wine there and save a ton on shipping cases of wine from France?  I might be way off base here, from experience, my taste buds tell me I am not full of crap anyway.  I have tried both styles in the US & UK and found the ones made from fresh pressed juice are more flavourful and complex than the concentrate based cider.  However, I think the only way to make a consistent product is to use concentrate.  Our own cider is a little different from bottling to bottling which can be problematic for the customer that wants the exact same product every time they have a tipple.  This is just my own opinion and not meant to offend, there are some very good ciders out there made with concentrate and even blends of juice and concentrate.  I am weary of concentrate becoming the crutch for cider makers when a relationship with a grower could be more positive for both.

My two cents.

M. Beck

[Bill Lyon]

Maybe a bit too far for Michigan, but I just spoke to Marcus Robert at Tieton (Washington State) and he's still got availability for juice this year. Fresh juice can ship starting in October and there's some frozen juice available now. It's mostly a blend of Kingston Black, Harry Masters Jersey, Porters Perfection, Stoke Red, and Dabinett.  Minimum order is 1 drum but all size orders will be considered. Contact info is mar...@tietonciderworks.com or phone 509 571-1430, ext 110  - you can get details including pricing from Marcus.

The new Cider View orchard is growing up ... there'll be a lot more available next year.

Regards,

Bill Lyon

[Mark Darley]

I don't think anyone would say that making cider from concentrate is a substitute for making it from fresh juice.  

However when you do not have a ready supply of Bitter Sweets, adding reconstituted concentrate in a skilful manner will massively improve the taste and complexity of your cider.  

If you intend to improve your cider through aging it, you need the tannins to make the improvements with age. 

I spend 4 months a year in the West Country of the UK, and the balance in California.  In my personal opinion California ciders are sorely in need of Bitter Sweets for some added complexity and interest, as are all ciders made with dessert and table fruit. While there is  shortage of Bitter Sweet in the US, the concentrate can help.  It also helps if you intend to make cider year round.

Whether the US consumer wants or is willing to pay for that improvement is a whole other conversation, but I think in the end, as in the micro beer market, a significant number of educated consumers will be willing to pay for the more interesting cider.

The concentrate that Warhorse Distribution is importing from the UK is far less processed than most, and is a cloudy product which is that much more complex.

Again; disclosure; this is my sons's import business.

Mark

On Monday, August 8, 2016 at 11:27:13 PM UTC-7, Matt C. wrote:

[darlenehayes]

With all due respect, Mark, there are any number of cider traditions that don't have the tannin profile of the West Country. After much drinking all over the world I've come to the conclusion that the quality of the drink has as much or more to do with the skill of the cidermaker as with the apples he/she uses. I had a 3 year old bottle conditioned Gravenstein the other day that would knock your socks off. It also true that much of the American cider-drinking public is not quite ready for tannin, even at low levels.

If we truly want to build a long term sustainable cider culture in this country we need to encourage farmers to put more complex fruit in ground, which they will only do if they know the investment will pay off in the relatively near future. I would hate to see the use of imported concentrate either used as a crutch for less-skilled cider making or as discouragement to growing our own. Let's maybe think about developing and educating the consumer so that when the fruit is ready for them, they're ready for it.

Just my 2 cents.

Darlene

[MARK DARLEY]

Darlene,

I completely agree that planting to replace the damage done by the loss of cider varieties during Prohibition is the best solution. But as you know, living in Sonoma, not much apple acreage is likely to be planted in areas where land prices are approaching $100,000 an acre!  Unfortunately some of the best land for apples across the US and in Canada is now being consumed by vines.  That leaves non wine producing areas to plant cider orchards.

I too have been drinking ciders all over the world. I agree that the "quality of the drink" is determined by the skill of the cider maker. But the complexity is a result of the apples that go into it, and often, as you point out with your Gravenstein example, aging.

I agree that few cider drinkers in America are ready for the heavy tannins in a Herefordshire cider, but I can assure you that there are many who enjoy a Devon or Brittany cider. Look at the way the French ciders are increasingly popular in our markets in California.

I don't think concentrate is a prop for a less skilled cider maker. In fact possibly more skill is needed. It is simply an ingredient that is available from great cider orchards until we in America have replanted enough to satisfy demand.

I applaud the Campbells of Tieton and Bill Lyons for getting a start on it, along with many others.

As this is a site more for exchange of resources than exchange of opinions, I will leave it there. I am happy to continue this conversation at Cider Con or even in Sonoma or Marin in person. Come and have a few ciders from my travels in my cabin in Inverness before I drink them all myself!

Regards

Mark

Mark Darley

Wassail Orchards and LDB Beverage Co.

Cell: 415-310-5252

311 Seymour Lane

Mill Valley, CA 94941

USA

October 1st to October 21st

Cell: +44 0757 2180117

Beenleigh Manor North

Totnes

Devon

TQ9 7EF

UK

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[Matt C.]

Well put, M. Beck. I greatly appreciate your insight and advice. 

Consumers certainly expect consistency and high quality, but it seems they're willing to let consistency vary as long as the quality is still present. 

- Matt

[Mike Beck]

I applaud the effort to get better concentrate here in the US.  For the folks that use it, I am sure it will be an upgrade.  I personally wonder if this is more a question about “cider styles” if there is such a thing.  I have never really attempted to make an English style cider, or any style of cider for that matter.  However, if I were to make a west country style cider I would certainly want the fruit or concentrate to be the varieties they use.  I just call our cider “cider”, we are just making cider with some of our regions best varieties.  While little tannin may exist in that cider it should be a refreshing beverage.   Even when I do have access to local fresh bittersweet English or French varieties I have never tried to make a cider that conformed to what they might be used for in their country of origin. I have never treated them differently than any other apple with the exception they go in a large format, sorta’ champagne looking bottle instead of a can or small format bottle.  No doubt these cider are more complex and interesting.  The bigger discussion is what we do with them in the market?  I can sell these special ciders in my taproom when they get the right amount of romance and a sip.  Beyond my taproom it is a much more difficult sale, some of that reason may be format but also the price.  Right now bittersweet fruit is insanely more expensive than the average apple here,  Apples for cider sell for 10 - 15 cents a lb. in the East & Great Lakes  & I have heard Washington state juice apples are trading at a nickel a lb., maybe less with a big crop being reported.  So far most well grown bittersweets sell in the 40+ cents a lb. range.  Almost 4 times as much,  It makes the proposition of selling these excellent ciders an uphill climb.  We have in the US market,  ciders that are well made but with cheap ingredients(big brands) ciders that are made well with moderately priced ingredients (regional brands) and ciders that are well made with expensive ingredients (local brands & occasional regional brand)  The poorly made ones at any level are not worth mentioning.  The cider market here is insanely competitive too!  We get so little shelf or tap space compared to any other beverage category.    Trying to get shelf space for these  special ciders is difficult to find and move sluggishly compared to mass market or even moderately priced, more honest cider.  This makes it hard for people to appreciate the better ones because they are getting hard to find and not competitively priced when they do find them.   So…. How do we get folks interested in our more interesting ciders?

Mike

Michigan-USA

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[cidersupply.com]

Hi Mike, yes probably it will be a very long time before we see a bulk of the Euro Style ciders largely available on the shelf in stores. But in your tap room (and all others out there) you have the great ability to attract customers by having cider tastings available. 

Most everyone i know jump at the chance to taste common varieties against Euro types.

Yep just line up a few cider tasting cups made with Dessert apples with some of the ones blended with or made exclusively with Bittersweets and Bitter sharps and do the blind tast taste. 

Most people quickly apprehend the fact that the Dessert Apple group generally are light in color and are watery or low in SG, acidic, lack aroma, body, and don't have a long finish but rather a short flat one as tannins are vacant. But still can be very refreshing if the residual acids are not too high, or back sweetening has been overdone.

The ones made or blended with the Bittersweets and Bittersharps typically have a noticeable to deep orangish color and a higher SG or higher density. Acid is lower, tannins are present (along with other compounds) that give a substantial and excellent mouthfeel with intense aromas. The finish often is long lasting, interesting, and three dimensional.

This would probably be the only way to boost understandIng of the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly ciders out there. As far as price of the apples, bittersweets and bittersharps cannot be priced all the same because they vary so greatly in what they can bring into a cider.

Some ard so high in tannins that they are almost a concentrate in themselves in that very small amounts can addtress issues in large volumes of dessert juice. they are an ingredient rather than a base. So if one gallon can make 20 gallons of dessert cider top shelf, then the high cost is a wash.

If a bunch of bittersweet apples are only good for a base, or high volumes are needed to correct acid levels and add tannins to dessert apple juice, then i would deffinately call issue to paying top prices for those bittersweets or bittersharps.

Best regards

Chris Rylands

CiderSupply.com

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[Richard Hyde]

Have you shipped this Bittersweet juice to Canada yet.  I'd like to get my hands on some while my traditional orchard is growing.....

[CiderSupply.com]

Hi Richard, so far we have absorbed all excess. However, the Northwest Cider Association often has sources who post.

Best regards
Chris Rylands