Advice about pruning/staking cider 1 year maiden whips as standard central leader tree - new vs old ways?

[KAB]

Let me start off by saying everything we have learned about pruning cider apple trees, we have learned off the internet and by reading books. That is where the problem comes.  So many conflicting ways to prune an apple tree. So we volunteered to help out at a local park who had planted an orchard a few years ago and took a course. The orchard expert was great, seemed really knowledgeable about cider trees particularly. He suggested that pruning books hadn't been updated in years and were passing on old techniques and methods. He said planting the trees with low stakes, a single tie low down and leave them to it for the first 3 years or so then start to prune/shape the tree, cutting crossing branches etc for light access into center etc. And that sounded just about right. Made intuitive sense.

So thought I'd turn to this set of cider experts for any more suggestions advice and maybe a general consensus?

We know? there is a difference in pruning cider apple trees versus eating apple trees re: the cider apples do not have to be large and pretty so pruning is not quite as 'crucial'.

We have planted about 100 1-2 year maiden whips on an hexagonal grid (a few 'feathered' ie they are more than just a stem/trunk but have a few small 'branches' as well) of mostly M25 and MM106 rootstock of cider apples with a few eating and cookers as well. There are a few M26es interspersed which we intend to cut down in 10-15 years or so as we wanted some 'instant' gratification. We want them to be central leader standard, traditional orchard trees, not the open goblet shape (I think). 

It is on a slight north facing slope that does get some wind but is fairly protected on all sides. We are also planting alder and birch windbreaks but they are smaller than the maiden whips now (grin). No livestock will be under the apple trees for now. As we have so many trees, a little under productivity due to pruning I don't think concerns us yet. Note 'a little' under productivity. We don't want to ruin the future crop because of initial bad pruning decisions.

So the main question is

1. Instructions with the trees came saying "for fruit trees after planting cut the whip down by three buds from the top".  Is this generic fruit tree pruning or does it apply to our cider trees?  Is this correct for a traditional central leader standard cider apple tree? Will next winter be too late to do the pruning or do we still have time now (mid march)? Or should we just plant them and leave them for 3 years? I am losing sleep over this.

Other questions are

2. Should we treat the eaters/cookers as cider apple trees re: pruning as they are really there for the blend and not for the perfect apple?

3. How high should the tree stake be? Knee height as taught on course or taller as indicated in books/interweb?

4. Where should the tree be tied - high or low?   

      On our course we were told cut the stake off knee height and tie support to tree low versus the old method of large stake ties in two places, one high and one low.

5. We know the stake should come out for the M25 after a few years. Also know that the M26s probably need staking for life. If so - a short or tall stake?  What about the MM106?

Any other suggestions, pointers, references would be great.

Thanks

Katherine

[Duncan Hewitt]

We're in a similar boat Catherine - have planted around 100 fruit trees, including those I've grafted myself, and all are grown as bush or half-standard. I've read books, the internet, been on various courses by experts with varying qualifications, and the one thing I have learned is there is no proper way to do it. Some will think you're being anal about certain decisions, some will look aghast if you mention certain things. Another thing I have learned is that a tree wants to live. As long as you respect the cuts you make, keep bacteria and virus's out, and don't stress it too much with drought or flood or some other extreme (like a goose barking it!), the rest seems to be a personal choice. We *do* stake low down, having read that it helps the tree build up a natural strength against the wind, but common sense says no matter how good the natural defence, any strong wind above the norm can pull a tree up if it's laden with apples and leaves.

All of our trees have followed the usual 3 or 4 year formative pruning method, and we haven't lost one of the apples or pears. The plums and cherries are a different matter, but I'm 99% sure they fell to the flooding we had a couple of years ago when the ground stayed water logged for three months. I'm also a great believer that unless you have to, you shouldn't try and force a plant to grow where you want it to if it doesn't like it! We replaced the lost cherries, the hardest hit, with Scottish apple varieties, and the plums (only about three of 12) we replaced with hopefully hardier varieties and tumped the earth up slightly at the planting spot.

We are in our fourth year - the first year we pulled all the blossom off to give the roots a chance to use the energy to grow. The second year we did same except we waited for the blossom to fall then removed any small fruit. In fairness, the fruit tends to form on older wood so you won't get many anyway. Our third year we had about 30 apples, from about 45 trees - some gave, most didn't. It's disheartening, but patience is rewarded I guess. Last year we had about 300 apples from the same number of trees. This year we have more trees in, and I expect a few more apples. In fact this year they do look like miniature trees.

If you want to see how we're getting on - visit www.merrybower.co.uk - we kept a personal online diary of the land from the start, but last year made it public as we moved into small scale hay-making and chicken breeding. Nothing onerous - more a way of learning the skills for our own use, and sharing the excess. I'm hoping the cider will be a similar thing.

Oh - as for where you prune your first prune, it does depend on the final form you're after. We cut the central leader (CL) off at 80cm (2'6") for a bush (on MM106) and 1.2m (4') for a half standard (on M111) - or by my own measuring method, crotch height and elbow height! Of all the books I have, I ended up deciding on using Richard Bird's book "The Ultimate Practical Guide to Pruning and Training" as it's quite comprehensive, covering many plant types and pruning styles. I can have a quick look later and see what he says if you like about other methods. In fact I'm sitting in front of it now (just grabbed it) and pretty much all forms require the pruning of the top, which I imagine is to encourage the tree to throw side shoots.

So in answer, and bear in mind it's my relatively inexperienced answer - someone no doubt will answer with far more experience:

1) I have only just finished my pruning - winter or early spring is the default, I'd still class March as early spring, though it's moving fast now and I don't think I'd personally prune late March. You need to prune before the tree starts putting its energy into growing leaves and new branches. Again, personally, I would choose our bush and half-standard pruning over a spindle bush (which encourages a central leader) as the spindle bush looks pretty ugly, and can involve stringing to get the branches to grow horizontally, so encouraging more fruit growth.

2) Personally I would prune all the MM106 to a bush shape, with an open inside, but that's me. I like the idea of all fruit getting the sun, an open centre to help a tree dry out and prevent disease, and also eventually an easier picking height of the fruit. In the fourth year now of pruning, at 6'5" I can still easily prune the MM106 bush trees, but the M111 are seeing me on tip toes and next year will be ladders, which will be time consuming.

3) We started out with knee high stakes, with a high tree tie. Then, after much advice and seeing the wisdom, we dropped the tree tie down to about 6"-12" - the stake doesn't need to be more than 6" over the tie I'd imagine. Again, common sense said to stake some waftier trees higher - we have one pear tree that looks like it's on something, as it grows all over the shop (variety escapes me at the moment), so that has two stakes and ties until it develops a trunk!

4) I'd go with low, unless the tree *looks* like it needs a higher tie (waftier as above). We pretty much removed all ties by the third year on our MM106 trees, and they all look fine (and we do get some good winds here).

5) Everyone seems to recommend the M26, being a semi-dwarfing, needs staking for life. We put some 3" fence posts in for our Gisela 5 rootstock cherries, which would be the equivalent of the apple's M26, as they also needed permanent staking. With regards the MM106, ours are no longer staked, and were de-staked by last year. To be honest I think some may have been untied after their first year - most places say they don't need staking at all if planted as one year old trees, but with the wind here we erred on the side of caution. For the record, we have one tree on M26 nearer the house, and it no longer has a stake, but it's quite tiny at 7', and is reasonably sheltered.

Where are you based? If you're anywhere near south Derbyshire you're more than welcome to see an orchard a few years on from where you're at, to get a feeling of what to expect.

Cheers,

Duncan

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining and posting to the Cider Workshop, you have agreed to abide by our rules, and principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
 
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com
For more options, visit http://groups.google.com/group/cider-workshop?hl=en

---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

[Thomas Fehige]

We are in a similar situation, learning mostly from books, the internet and -- much too slowly and sometimes too late -- from our own experience. Almost all of our trees are standard trees on seedling rootstock, so I haven't given mouch thought to less vigorous rootstock types. In a text by a somewhat rebellious tree expert from a South German fruit growing and cider area, whose work is just being re-discovered by nature preservers etc., I came across the idea that cider and table fruit trees should indeed be treated rather similar. Sure, it is not the size of the fruit that matters to us ciderarians, but like the table fruit people we are after a high sugar content, and that is only achieved where the sun can reach as many of our apples as possible.

From that would follow that, where you have to prune the trees every year you'll need (ladder) access to the branches. That influences the shape of tree you aim at in quite a similar way as if you'd need access for picking the apples: wide rather than tall, with only a few well-defined big branches plus a not too dominant centre leader, etc., like in this drawing (which shows only two of the four side branches)

With our maidens I do this:

1. prune back the top, up to one third of last year's growth.
2. leave the top two buds below the cut intact, so next year you can choose one of two young shoots to continue the central leader.
3. remove some five buds below these two to avoid too much vigour going into concurrent vertical shoots that you'd have to cut off next year. You wouldn't want to train those as branches either, because their angle to the stem would be too narrow; that would be where a branch will break under a lull load of fruit later on.
4a. of the feathers, remove those below where you want the first braches or:
4b those that you want to make into main branches treat similar to the central leader
-- prune back to a bud on the inside(!),
-- leave the bud below that, which should roughly point in the direction you want the branch to go (i.e. out)
-- remove all other buds below that that point to the inside or horizontally to the sides of the branch
-- don't let the central leader grow much higher than the main branches...

That is only a small subset of what I think I've learned up to now, and I may be wrong, or not more right than others. It is confusing indeed, there are many conflicting theories, especially where standard or half standard trees are concerned, and not every good fruit farmer is good at explaining what he's doing, and, of course, vice versa.

I didn't tie the maidens at all; when I plant older trees with 1.8 m trunks and some branches (which hereabouts is more usual), I tie them at about 50cm, right above the rabbit defence. But then, my orchard is pretty well protected against strong wind by a big hawthorn hedge.

Wish you luck -- Thomas

[Dougal]

Dear Katherine

I'll throw a cat amongst the pigeons ...

I work for a very big eating apple entity with a strong orchard crew.  The second in-charge is particularly knowledgeable and has experience with cider trees.  I will pass on his advice.

As you may have worked out, many cider varieties are quite unruly.  They tend to be basally dominant, which means that all the branches want to become leaders.  If you wish to grow central leader trees, the leader needs some help.  Our bloke suggests not heading the leader and instead, cutting any branches more than 1/3 diameter of the leader back to the trunk with a Dutch cut.  This encourages the tree to get to the desired height as soon as possible with the leader getting little competition from side branches.  Once the leader is up, let the side branches grow out more and select the ones you wish to keep as scaffold branches.  Once I saw what he meant, it made perfect sense and I now have a much better appreciation for the balance of a young tree.

I would like to add an observation of my own.  Beyond overly-strong scaffold branches, don't be in a hurry to prune side branches.  These make for excellent scion harvesting should you want to propagate further trees.  You can tidy the trees up in late winter when you take the scions.

On Friday, March 13, 2015 at 7:24:50 PM UTC+13, KAB wrote:

[Thomas Fehige]

Hi Dougal,

one rather basic question. Around here, all experts seem to believe that pruning something back generally encourages growth in the following season. Such an unanimity is rare. Your expert is the first I hear from that seems to suggest otherwise. Or did I misunderstand? "To help the leader, don't (be-?)head the leader."? (Different among humans, perhaps.)

Oh, and another one, from a non-native speaker: What's a "Dutch cut" in this context? Google mainly shows haircuts on people, poodles and Putin, and some ugly stuff to do with foreskins :( .

Thanks! -- Thomas

[Duncan Hewitt]

That kind of makes sense, the dutch cut, where you cut to a downward facing bud, will force the side shoots to grow down, removing some of their dominant tendency I guess? I have to admit I haven't seen a tree with those characteristics in my collection, but then I haven't been looking for it and most of them are 'normal' eaters or cookers. Now that you've mentioned it, there are some that I've always assumed are just a little 'unruly', that I'll have a closer look at next year. Thanks for pointing it out!

With regards leaving some - whilst my trees aren't that old now, I also tend to leave the occasional side branch that I know I'll eventually remove as it's not needed as a scaffold branch, but only to produce fruit whilst the rest of the tree is still working up its form. One chap who gave me advice said to make as few cuts as possible, to help relieve the stress on the tree. So if, after a typical formative pruning session, I see the odd branch that's doing no harm that might produce fruit the following year, I leave it for the good of the tree and to produce a bit of fruit. Julian Brandram replied once, at my unhealthy attitude towards making the tree look neat and asking him "Should I cut these small branches off that won't be needed eventually?", "Sure, if you don't like fruit."

[vince wakefield]

http://www.treeterms.co.uk/definitions/dutch-cut

 

 

The cut can also be rotated so the new shoot starts growing in the direction you want it which may not be directly in line with the removed branch.

 

Vince

[Dougal]

To reiterate, the goal is to get the trees to close to full height as soon as possible.  Bear in mind that these trees are on wires and start well feathered.

[Richard Reeves]

Lots of good, confusing, and conflicting advice on the internet and perhaps even in this thread as well. You will have to make some management decisions after sifting through the noise and then try to have the courage to stick to those decisions while at the same time learning from the mistakes you make, if any.

 I would like to humbly suggest that any person who suggests new trees can be planted out and "left to it" for three years or so before intervention needs to be gently put out to pasture. It would be pernicious at best to mistreat a young orchard in such a manner. Those three formative years are far and away the most important of the 40-60 productive years you (and your heirs) should expect from a properly trained and managed stand of trees.

Best of luck!

Richard Reeves   Lake County, California

[Thomas Fehige]

Thanks Vince! Another example of n pruning specialists with n+1 contradicting methods. The books I currently follow say that you leave two buds right below the cut, the lower one pointing to where you want the branch to grow -- away from the centre mostly. The shoot from the top bud will grow pretty straight up anyway, but it will push the shoot from the second bud in a more horizontal direction by screening some sunlight away from it. In the following year, you take away the first shoot together with the stub of the branch above the second shoot. Or, if you have second thoughts and the second shoot is growing too low, you can always keep the top one as the continuation of the scaffolding branch and keep the lower one to bear fruit. Here's some pictures with a (German) explanation of this method.

Richard is right of course: We have to live with the conflicting advice here and from the internet and the teaching books and pruning seminars and the neighbours who have done it their way since before we were born. If I had the time and opportunity, I'd try to find someone with trees that I like the look of -- strong branches without the need of crutches when they bear apples, a lot of sunlight to reach inside the crown, etc. -- and when they prune their trees they do so with as little wasted growth = cut away wood as possible. But I should have started looking some thirty years earlier.

Cheers -- Thomas

[Duncan Hewitt]

Interesting method. I've always cut to an outward facing bud for my scaffolds, and in the main have been really pleased with the results. However, I can see the theory that the top branch would 'force' the lower branch out even more as it struggles to get sunlight - it makes sense, and could prove useful for those varieties with a more upright tendency. The one thing I have noticed, growing 40-50 different variety of apple tree is that each has its own way of growing - some have a tendency to die back and you lose that first bud, so you leave two, one up and one down - the one up will die, mostly. Some trees, the branches will decide a straight line is not for them, so I tend to leave a couple of potential scaffolds and let nature do its thing for a year until I can decide which to keep. Some trees reach for the sky as fast as they can and I'm guessing these would be the types that would benefit from that technique you mention - I may try it next year. Some just like going sideways!

Fascinating things!

--

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Let's not forget, friends, that an apple tree is a living organism... It is not a thing that we can mold as we wish. As Duncan wrote, sometimes they do this, othertimes they do that. What this mean for me is there is not one way to train a young tree. No single answer here! And some trees will always refuse to do what we would like them to do!

Lots of factors need to be taken into account also. What sort of tree do you want at the end? Low or medium or high stem? Wide or narrow tree? High stem is the traditional standard and is most useful when cattle graze under the trees. But the more it goes, the more I tend to make my trees high stem even if I don't have cows... it is easier to walk around the trees, deers don't bother them, bears fint it more difficult to climb. Also, here, in mid winter there can be somewhere between 1 and 1.5 meters of snow on the ground - when this melts, it often breaks small side branches.

What I mean here is different orchardists have different situations, hence don't have same needs, and will train different ways.
I think an apple tree is in general very forgiving, so you can make mistakes without too much penalty.

This being said, here is what I do... I like the tree to get its hight as quickly as possible, and I like to see one central stem. Hence I won't cut this central leader, and manage the side branches, sometimes removing one when there are too many, or bending them if well positioned but too vigourous. I always cut growth from a side branch that comes back towards the center. Once the tree has a good height, I then cut the top yearly growth every year - from then on the tree then grows in width.

The original post asked about height of stake... How high do you want your tree to be? I use 8 ft metal posts during the first years. You can tie the tree at different heights, I don't think it matters that much.

Claude

[Dougal]

I hadn't noticed anyone here suggesting to leave the trees to it, Richard.  Everyone has provided good advice, albeit from different strategic points of view.

There are many different growing strategies, too: do you want central leader or goblet (or any of a myriad of other specialist growing shapes)?  Are you going for standard or bush?  What's your root stock, soil type and climate?  What's the vigour of the grafted cultivar like?  What about bienialism?  What's your spacing?  Are your trees self supporting, on wires or stakes (stakes, I see here)?  All these things play a part in deciding how to grow your trees.  And don't forget, we are not growing apples to go on supermarket shelves; we are growing apples to go in a mill.  Don't take all advice from commercial dessert orchards without thinking about its impact on cider production.

[greg l.]

I would suggest that people leave the trees to it, though I'm certain no-one would take the advice. Trees seem to actually know how to grow by themselves, amazing as it may seem. I have seen whole forests growing with hardly any help at all. The notion that it may not be necessary to guide trees is not a very popular one.

Greg

[Terry Birkbeck]

Hi
 
Im am trying to unsubscribe to this group as I'm getting about 50 messages a day which is just to much. I have tried the unsubscribe link but just comes back saying I'm not a member (worrying that)
 
cant seem to email cider workshop direct, any ideas anybody
 
Thanks
 
Terry
 

---

Date: Tue, 17 Mar 2015 05:03:53 -0700
From: cjol...@gmail.com
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: Advice about pruning/staking cider 1 year maiden whips as standard central leader tree - new vs old ways?

[Thomas Fehige]

There are certain differences between forests of wild trees and orchards of cultivated apple trees. The latter have been selected over millenia for certain properties -- not having to prune them has never been high on that list. Most fruit trees aren't grown from seed but grafted and replanted several times. Not very natural either, doesn't happen much in primeval forests. Trees there are selected to compete with their neighbours for sunlight, water and nutrients. Not applicable in a well-planned orchard.

While fruit trees won't necessarily die from not being pruned, they'll hardly reach their maximum whatchacallit -- utility? usefulness? for those who, e.g. want the cider. Fruit with less sugar, branches that grow in a way so they'll break off in a storm or under a load of snow or apples, dense crowns without air circulation or sunlight, where all kinds of fungi feel right at home ... Not a very popular outlook, at least for me. Woodpeckers, little owls and many insects may take a different view ;) .

Cheers -- Thomas

[KAB]

Wow, lots of suggestions. Thanks for all the thought.  Given we have a lot of trees, we decided to experiment with our pruning, leaving some of the whips to grow even higher for a standard tree and making the first cut when the potential trunk reaches 6m. Another we cut at 4m for a 1/2 standard and yet another m26 we have tried our hand at pruning to a bush shape.

Basically after discovering that 'the worse you can do' is lose some productivity I feel a bit safe and trying some different techniques - and looking around my area for so local knowledge.

Again - thanks

[Thomas Fehige]

I'm afraid it won't work like that.

I've attended a couple of pruning seminars and one thing the experts were pretty clear on was this: Where you cut, you encourage growth, where you don't, you encourage fruit. If you start pruning as late and in the way you suggest (beheading the tree), you'll encourage growth at the moment when and in a place where you want to stop it.

Pruning is more important for a young tree than for an old one. In a young tree, you want growth and vigorous shoots in the right places to build the scaffold, and year after year you shift over a bit more towards encouraging more horizontal fruit branches. In an adult tree you just make sure there's enough air and sunlight inside the crown.

I try to see pruning not so much as cutting away unwanted wood but as a way to encourage growth towards a healthy, i.e. productive, crown that gives me as little work and as much and as good fruit as possible. I don't want a tree that rockets into the sky, so I try to encourage growth in the outer scaffolding and fruit-bearing branches and also the fruit bearing branches of the centre. Were I to cut off the centre and all the shoots that spring up around the cut in the following years to keep the tree at a certain height, I'd ultimately get the shape of a basket weaver's pollard willow and I'd cut out much of the tree's life and energy every year. Unlike the basket weaver, I want to harvest fruit, not wood. Energy the tree needs for growing wood it can't use for growing fruit.

Actually, those are ideas I aim to follow. My results in practice are still far from 100 percent satisfaction. But I hope to keep learning.

Caveat: I have 26 rather young standard and almost-standard trees, mostly on very vigorous seedling rootstock (some only on M25), planted on a 12m grid. Not everything I say will apply to hundreds of modern trees on dwarfing rootstock planted close together.

Cheers -- Thomas

BTW: "standard" and "half standard" mean the height where the lowest branches start out (>1.80m and >1m, respectively), the height of the whole tree is mainly determined by the rootstock's vigour, the tree's growing habit, conditions and age and by the pruning style. You choose between standard and half standard depending on the size of your tractor and livestock.