M27, M9 and M25 apple rootstocks
michael
for about £9 from Scotts of Merriott,but unfortunately they are no
longer trading.
Does anyone know of an alternative UK grower that sell rootstocks?
Michael
Andrew Lea
A simple Google search shows these:
http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/Apple-Rootstock-Pear-Rootstock
http://www.orangepippinshop.com/articles/rootstocks-for-sale
I think most of the leading nurseries would probably sell them if you
asked eg Thornhayes, Bernwode, Keepers, Frank Matthews etc etc. Fire off
a few e-mails ;-)
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
Charlotte Traynor
Charlotte
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Melanie Wilson
I don't think there are any UK growers these days most come from the
Netherlands, but there are a few suppliers, some of which have been listed
Mel
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Andrew Lea
If you've already got one of each of the rootstocks of interest, and you
don't need many every year, couldn't you just keep your own bulk supply
going by 'stooling'?
Andrew
Melanie Wilson
currently.
I tend to use the tops I cut off prior to grafting by sticking them in
compost to make rootstocks for the future, this works really well on MM106,
marginally well on M27, I've not tried M9 (have yet to get my hands on any)
or M25. I'm just setting up a micropropagation home lab & as most of the
academic literature (on apples) is on mp of rootstock apples I'll be trying
those.
Mel
Andrew
--
Andrew Lea
> Personally, I'm too lazy to stool bed ! But I'm typically using 100 a
> year currently.
Right! I was thinking more of Michael who doesn't use so many I think.
>
> I tend to use the tops I cut off prior to grafting by sticking them in
> compost to make rootstocks for the future, this works really well on
> MM106, marginally well on M27, I've not tried M9 (have yet to get my
> hands on any) or M25.
Nothing to lose by doing that anyway!
> I'm just setting up a micropropagation home lab & as most of the academic literature (on apples) is on mp of rootstock
> apples I'll be trying those.
I presume that is how commercial propagation of clonal rootstocks is
nowadays carried out. AFAIR it should also help to keep them virus free,
if the stock is clean to begin with and you select cells just from the
growing tip? [not my field!]
Melanie Wilson
Fair dos,
>Nothing to lose by doing that anyway!
Indeed not, if I wanted to multiply I'd cut in half, the more you put
beneath the soil the better it seems to be.
I also tried cutting growth at the end of the summer from 4 cultivars (4
cuttings), in the hope the sap down push would give me rooting. One looks
successful, 2 still are clinging on, 4 looks dead. But I'll give them a year
off deadness before I give up.
>I presume that is how commercial propagation of clonal rootstocks is
nowadays carried out.
I believe it is going that way, although I would have thought the genetic
drift some report would be a concern (not that I'm an expert !)
> AFAIR it should also help to keep them virus free,
if the stock is clean to begin with and you select cells just from the
growing tip? [not my field!]
Yes there is a lot to suggest that this is a very safe method & another
reason I'm interested in it is there are possibilities for export/import of
clean material. I initially was interested as a way to get heritage/rare
apples back on their own roots.
Mel
Charlotte Traynor
I had no idea most rootstocks from UK nurseries weren't actually grown there. That makes me want to try and propagate my own even more! In all honesty I've not looked into how to do it in much detail but we've saved about 100 or so M26 rootstock tops , slicing off the bottom few buds and soaking them in willow hormone before just sticking them in the ground - we'll se what happens, no great loss if it all goes to pot!
Have just googles "stooling" as I've not heard of this before. Doesn't look like I'm going to be able to graft the whole 1000 stocks we have this year (cutting it fine doing some now I think....) so might try this on a few we end up not grafting with.
Charlotte
Melanie Wilson
Well worth trying
> In all honesty I've not looked into how to do it in much detail but we've
> saved about 100 or so M26 rootstock tops , slicing off the bottom few buds
> and soaking them in willow hormone before just sticking them in the
> ground - we'll se what happens, no great loss if it all goes to pot!
The first year I tried, I tried MM106 4 ways, With & without Clonex (rooting
gel) , with bark as is, with bark stripped for part of the length, they all
took equally well. On MM106 all did equally well, in fact I don't think I've
had any failures. The literature suggest the younger the growth the better
the rooting potential. This is growth from roots. New growth far away from
the roots, won't do as well. Another potential way to increase your stock is
by root cuttings. Own root research suggests this as the best propagation
method once you have the cultivar on its own roots, which of course you do
with rootstocks.
Micropropagation reports rootstock reproduce well by MP, whereas other
cultivars are more reluctant. The suggestion being that rootstock cultivars
need to happily reproduce. I do wonder if it is more a function of youth,
closeness to real roots, eg would an own root golden delicious for example
root better than a grafted one. No data on that !
>Have just googles "stooling" as I've not heard of this before. Doesn't
>look like I'm going to be able to graft the whole 1000 stocks we have this
>year (cutting it fine doing some now I think....) so might try this on a
>few we end up not grafting with.
Good luck :)
Mel
Dave
On Apr 15, 8:12 pm, "Melanie Wilson"
> Micropropagation reports rootstock reproduce well by MP, whereas other
> cultivars are more reluctant. The suggestion being that rootstock cultivars
> need to happily reproduce. I do wonder if it is more a function of youth,
> closeness to real roots, eg would an own root golden delicious for example
> root better than a grafted one. No data on that !
rather than a rootstock?
I would think this would be true in most cases (varieties) with the
possible exception of the most vigorous of rootstocks.
Many years ago we had some very sickly Cox on M9. We mounded up the
earth around the trunks to encourage the Cox to produce its own roots
and get more vigour into the tree.
I'm not suggesting it is good practice, but it did work.
Unfortunately I got marked down for mentioning that in a "What methods
can be used to control vigour of apple trees" question during my time
as a student at Writtle.
Melanie Wilson
Do you mean would a Golden Delicious be more vigorous on its own roots
rather than a rootstock?
No I meant would an own rootstock Golden Delicious (for example) be better
for micropropagation. Generally own root trees seem to have a longer life
>Many years ago we had some very sickly Cox on M9. We mounded up the
earth around the trunks to encourage the Cox to produce its own roots
and get more vigour into the tree.
M9 in the past as a Paradise was used as deliberately small & often root
pruned, So I'm not sure I'd be expecting vigour, health hopefully, so I'm
not sure I'm understanding you ?
>I'm not suggesting it is good practice, but it did work.
It is good practice if you want a tree on its own roots to use one that
isn't vigorous as a nurse system :)
Mel
Dick Dunn
[snip]
> Many years ago we had some very sickly Cox on M9. We mounded up the
> earth around the trunks to encourage the Cox to produce its own roots
> and get more vigour into the tree.
Along the same lines as Mel's reply: M9 is strongly dwarfing, so you're
really throttling what the scion might like to do. It might not "like"
that--it might be somewhat incompatible. When you let the Cox produce
its own roots, you're just taking the M9 out of the picture, so of course
the tree would become more vigorous. It gets to become whatever size a
Cox would be naturally.
> I'm not suggesting it is good practice, but it did work.
> Unfortunately I got marked down for mentioning that in a "What methods
> can be used to control vigour of apple trees" question during my time
> as a student at Writtle.
Well maybe you should have gotten partial credit?
As I said, what you're doing is really taking the original rootstock out
of the picture. That can give the tree greater vigour, but it also changes
other characteristics--such as disease resistance, anchoring, tolerance of
different soil types. You might be paying a lot in other ways for the
increase in vigor.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
Melanie Wilson
such as disease resistance, anchoring, tolerance of
different soil types. You might be paying a lot in other ways for the
increase in vigor.
or you might gain a great deal. The evolutionary strategy of apples seems
to be diversity, which tends to give a chance to swift adaptation to
disease, environment etc, over the species. Might not produce the apples we
want but it protected the species. There is a strong argument that the
traditional rootstocks will be now more disease prone than 50, 100, 150
years ago as said diseases adapt to do their thing on a stable environment
which can't fight back via change. Original tree have survived for very long
periods as they are unique on unique rootstock thus lessening the chance of
adaptation by pathogens, at least to the root system . The real down side of
own root trees is it will allow this negative adaptation of pathogens.
Mel
Nick Bradstock
(Not criticising at all but merely wondering - has science found some
semblance of a logical decision system in plants now?)
All the best
Nick
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Melanie Wilson
Sent: 16 April 2011 7:17 AM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Mel
Andrew Lea
> Can plants have a strategy? Or is it just evolution by accident?
> (Not criticising at all but merely wondering - has science found some
> semblance of a logical decision system in plants now?)
> All the best
> Nick
Not sure if this is what you mean, and it *is* off topic, but when I
was at school we were taught about something that was then totally
discredited called Lamarckian inheritance aka the "inheritance of
acquired characteristics" that organisms were able to pass on to their
offspring. At the time (1960's) this was a VERY NAUGHTY thing to believe
and our knuckles were severely rapped with a ruler if we even thought
about it ;-) [Old fashioned education, complete with inkwells and wooden
desks!]
Now it is mainstream biological thinking again but it goes by the fancy
name of 'epigenetic inheritance' and if I understand it right is
associated with switching on or off sections of DNA by the parent
organism due to environmental pressures which can indeed have an effect
on the behaviour of their offspring, and is believed to be one reason
that evolution seems to happen quite quickly in many cases (Correct me
if I'm wrong, any biologists out there!)
It is not exactly strategic or conscious, but it is much more 'directed'
and responsive than simple Darwinian evolution by selection of random
mutations. Maybe this is what you are thinking of, Nick?
Mel
living organism to accomplish some important goal." Apples tend to be
diverse, bats then to use niche evolution stratergies and so on.
Strategy in this case not being planned/thought out, but a way of
being, derived from underlying biological facors and sucesses. To go
much deeper than that goes way too far off topic so I hope thatb will
do :)
Mel
>
> - Show quoted text -
MikeB...@aol.com
Nick Bradstock
I betray myself by my orthodox 60s thinking - but strategy to me demands conscious thought (as we know it - and that introduces another philosophical concept) while DNA being switched on or off by environmental pressures seems merely to be an explanation of evolution by natural selection....
Ah for the simple certainties (and inkwells and wooden desks) of the 60s - and music, etc, ( though that certainly is a step off-topic too far).
Best
Nick
MikeB...@aol.com
greg l.
provide vigour but you lose the precocious fruiting from dwarfing
rootstocks.
I think you underestimate the genetic diversity of apples. Even with
known pollen and seed parents you will get very considerable
diversity, often to the point you will doubt the parentage.
I think you are right about the need to control, even if the degree of
control is sometimes imaginary. People find the chaos of nature
threatening, and need to feel that we are not at the mercy of forces
beyond our control, even if the control is imaginary or detrimental.
Of course the profit motive needs predictability and efficiency, but
what profit a man if he loses his soul? (to paraphrase someone or
other).
Greg
MikeB...@aol.com
Tim
Like these Mike? All saved from a dumpy bag of pummy that was left behind the shed 2009/2010 season, growing away nicely now.
Tim in Dorset
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of MikeB...@aol.com
Sent: 17 April 2011 10:29
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: M27, M9 and M25 apple rootstocks
I've read that the source of new rootstocks used to be seedlings orginating from the cider makers. While their qualities would be unknown, from a large crop of seedlings it should be possible to see which are growing well, and there would be the advantage of 'seedling vigour'. And there is always the possibility of new worthwhile varieties turning up (if you leave part of the tree ungrafted to find out).
--
MikeB...@aol.com
Melanie Wilson
> things in our rush to control our plants to the nth degree, and the loss
> of
> continuing emerging genetic diversity from sexual reproduction in apples
> might
> be a good example.
I think you are right and in by narrowing the genetic range we could lose
something that would be a gain further along in time. But humans think very
narrowly in terms of what suits them, for the apple species the priorities
differ
Glad to hear people are using seedling rootstocks.
Mel
MikeB...@aol.com
provide vigour but you lose the precocious fruiting from dwarfing
rootstocks.
I think you underestimate the genetic diversity of apples. Even with
known pollen and seed parents you will get very considerable
diversity, often to the point you will doubt the parentage.
I think you are right about the need to control, even if the degree of
control is sometimes imaginary. People find the chaos of nature
threatening, and need to feel that we are not at the mercy of forces
beyond our control, even if the control is imaginary or detrimental.
Of course the profit motive needs predictability and efficiency, but
what profit a man if he loses his soul? (to paraphrase someone or
other).
Greg
On Apr 17, 7:28 pm, MikeBisp...@aol.com wrote:
> from the cider makers. While their qualities would be unknown, from a
> large crop of seedlings it should be possible to see which are growing well,
> and there would be the advantage of 'seedling vigour'. And there is always
> the possibility of new worthwhile varieties turning up (if you leave part
> of the tree ungrafted to find out).
>
> things in our rush to control our plants to the nth degree, and the loss of
> continuing emerging genetic diversity from sexual reproduction in apples might
> be a good example.
>
Alan Stone
| I suspect that in this contect Tim is referring to a half tonne fertiliser bag reused to collect apples. These are top slung to be lifted by a tractor foreloader on a spike. A Dumpy bag was actually a fertiliser bag system from ICI which held 750kg and was lifted from underneath by forks via a disposable pallet construction - a rather expensive and relatively short lived brand --- On Sun, 17/4/11, MikeB...@aol.com <MikeB...@aol.com> wrote: |
|
|
greg l.
outside over winter is enough, but at this time of year you can put
the seeds in a bag of damp coarse sand and leave in the fridge (not
freezer). They take 4-6 weeks to germinate, keep an eye on them and
plant them in pots when you see the white roots inside the plastic
bag. Trees on seedling stock will take a couple of years longer to
bear, but will be more vigourous, drought tolerant and longer lived.
Greg
greg l.
diversity, eg humans, dogs, apples, while others have very little. The
wollomi pine discovered near Sydney in the 90s seems to have no
genetic diversity at all, seedlings raised are identical to their
parents in the same way as cuttings. Diversity means that for a gene
there are a variety of alleles that can exist. Many of these alleles
will be recessive but when the genes are sorted via meiosis they may
be expressed in the next generation. Because of the diversity in
apples most of the cultivars existing have been the result of chance
seedlings rather than breeding. I have read that with peaches
seedlings will be quite similar to their parents.
Greg
Tim
Large bag that is normally used to deliver sand or aggregate, usually a capacity of 800kgs.
Tim in Dorset
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of MikeB...@aol.com
Sent: 17 April 2011 17:21
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Re: M27, M9 and M25 apple rootstocks
Lovely! What is a 'dumpy bag'?
--
Melanie Wilson
diversity
But also remembering that species & population diversity may differ. Whilst
an apple species may have great diversity, reduction of that diversity to a
few cultivars with reduce the population diversity. Any one cultivar can
only "hold" a limited number of alleles and they will be the same within a
cultivar population (barring mutations) , an interesting factor of apples
seems to be this need for cross cultivar pollination which encourages
diversity. If we think about Malus niedzwetskyana (if one is happy to accept
that as a species) then the diversity of that species has been drastically
reduced, via habitat loss.
So species diversity can only exist if many individuals can hold many
different varieties of alleles, remove the diversity of the individuals and
the diversity of the species is not going to return , until at least
mutation sets it.
There has been some interesting work suggesting evolution as a back & forth
rapid change within a species (using the diversity within a population) and
also speciation happening & then reversing. But mostly that has been on
animals not apples.
Mel
Stephen Hayes
I have a lot of unwanted MM106 suckers coming up from previous orchard work, recently posted a video on my youtube channell showing this, if anyone is interested could let these go for a pund each next season
Stephen hayes
-----Original Message-----
From: Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk>
Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 12:57 PM
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] M27, M9 and M25 apple rootstocks
On 15/04/2011 11:57, michael wrote:
> I used to obtain my M27, M9 and M25 apple rootstocks in bundles of 5
> for about £9 from Scotts of Merriott,but unfortunately they are no
> longer trading.
> Does anyone know of an alternative UK grower that sell rootstocks?
> Michael
>
A simple Google search shows these:
http://www.ashridgetrees.co.uk/Apple-Rootstock-Pear-Rootstock
http://www.orangepippinshop.com/articles/rootstocks-for-sale
I think most of the leading nurseries would probably sell them if you
asked eg Thornhayes, Bernwode, Keepers, Frank Matthews etc etc. Fire off
a few e-mails ;-)
Andrew
--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk
greg l.
Of course I meant genus not species. apples seem to hybridise very
easily which can be a problem for conservation buy good for breeding
new cultivars or chance seedlings
Greg
On Apr 18, 9:35 am, "Melanie Wilson"