Campden tablets and amount to use

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Steve Tolley

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Oct 19, 2021, 1:06:19 PM10/19/21
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Firstly apologies as I cant seem to get my small Hereford brain around the dosage of Tablets to must.
We are pressing for the first time this weekend, I have Andrew's book in front of me and I can see that 1 tablet will make 50ppm if dissolved in 1 gallon of water. Got that bit.
We will be using 30litre spiedel fermenting vessels.
So for example we have 30 litres of must at ph 3.5 how much of the campden tablet solution should I be adding to kill off the wild yeast etc.
We also want to try a wild yeast barrel so I understand its best to add 50% of that amount to the wild yeast barrel.
Apologies if this has been done to death but I'm sure once it clicks I'll be fine.
Hope this hasn't caused to much sighing or eye rolling
Cheers
Steve

Steve Tolley

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Oct 19, 2021, 4:02:30 PM10/19/21
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Hi think I've sussed it
30litre container so 6.5 gallons
Eg pH of 3.6 to kill everything got to use 2 tablets per gallon so 6.5 x2 = 13 tabs per container

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Subject: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use
 
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Ray Blockley

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Oct 19, 2021, 4:17:14 PM10/19/21
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Steve.

You may find it much easier to make a stock solution as outlined by Andrew Lea on his website? 

"To make a 5% stock solution of sulphur dioxide, dissolve around 10 grams of sodium or potassium metabisulphite in 100 ml of water. (The metabisulphite salts contain around 50 - 60% of available SO2 depending on how they've been stored).  Then 1 ml of this per litre of juice (5 ml per gallon) corresponds to 50 ppm (parts per million) of SO2." 



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Steve Tolley

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Oct 19, 2021, 4:48:34 PM10/19/21
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HI Ray 
Thanks for the reply. I take it I've still got it wrong?
We could buy the sodium metabisulphite if that's easier. We just bought a load of Campden tablets as I thought it would be easier.
Thanks again Ray appreciate it mate
Steve

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Sent: Tuesday, 19 October 2021, 21:17
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Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use

Ray Blockley

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Oct 19, 2021, 5:39:10 PM10/19/21
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Hi Steve.

We find having a stock solution makes life much easier for us? 
You can make a stock solution from Campden Tablets too.
If you have the tablets then do use them first - as a dry tablet dose or crushed & dissolved into water to make a stock solution. 

Either way is fine.

Much depends on the volume of cider you are making too. 

Go with what works best for you.

Cheers, Ray



Steve Tolley

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Oct 19, 2021, 5:56:13 PM10/19/21
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Ray thanks so much hoping to make about 300 litres
So if we just crush the tablets up then are my calculations right.
I don't know why I'm finding it so difficult to get my head around it.
Thanks again
Steve

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Ray Blockley

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Oct 19, 2021, 6:26:14 PM10/19/21
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Hi Steve.

It should be easy to work out how much Campden Tablets to crush up? 
We make up a 2 litre 5% stock solution by dissolving 200g of sodium metabisulphite in 2 litres of water. We actually make up 4 litres of this in 2 litre batches & that covers us for much of our pressing.

So if doing smaller quantities:
100g per litre  or 50g per 500ml or 25g per 250ml.
Once you have used up your tablets, then do consider buying & using sodium metabisulphite powder? Cheaper & easier to use for one.
If you have an accurate measuring jar & pH is measured accurately,  then everything should be straight forward.

Ray

Steve Tolley

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Oct 19, 2021, 7:05:25 PM10/19/21
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Hi Ray
We will definitely be going down that powder route..just initially assumed it would be easier with tablets. Still it's our first attempt so all a big learning curve. Pressing this weekend so fingers crossed
Really appreciate your help
Cheers Steve

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Brian Drake

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Oct 19, 2021, 9:52:31 PM10/19/21
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I mix up a 5% solution in a 200mL reagant bottle.  1mL/L = 50ppm, so it’s a cinch to scale.  Do the calculations up front for making your solution and makes additions super simple.

Good luck!

Brian


On Tuesday, October 19, 2021, Steve Tolley <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:
HI Ray 
Thanks for the reply. I take it I've still got it wrong?
We could buy the sodium metabisulphite if that's easier. We just bought a load of Campden tablets as I thought it would be easier.
Thanks again Ray appreciate it mate
Steve

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Sent: Tuesday, 19 October 2021, 21:17
To: Workshop-Cider
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use

Steve.

You may find it much easier to make a stock solution as outlined by Andrew Lea on his website? 

"To make a 5% stock solution of sulphur dioxide, dissolve around 10 grams of sodium or potassium metabisulphite in 100 ml of water. (The metabisulphite salts contain around 50 - 60% of available SO2 depending on how they've been stored).  Then 1 ml of this per litre of juice (5 ml per gallon) corresponds to 50 ppm (parts per million) of SO2." 



On Tue, 19 Oct 2021, 21:02 Steve Tolley, <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi think I've sussed it
30litre container so 6.5 gallons
Eg pH of 3.6 to kill everything got to use 2 tablets per gallon so 6.5 x2 = 13 tabs per container

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Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 6:06:19 PM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-workshop@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use
Firstly apologies as I cant seem to get my small Hereford brain around the dosage of Tablets to must.
We are pressing for the first time this weekend, I have Andrew's book in front of me and I can see that 1 tablet will make 50ppm if dissolved in 1 gallon of water. Got that bit.
We will be using 30litre spiedel fermenting vessels.
So for example we have 30 litres of must at ph 3.5 how much of the campden tablet solution should I be adding to kill off the wild yeast etc.
We also want to try a wild yeast barrel so I understand its best to add 50% of that amount to the wild yeast barrel.
Apologies if this has been done to death but I'm sure once it clicks I'll be fine.
Hope this hasn't caused to much sighing or eye rolling
Cheers
Steve

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Eric Tyira

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Oct 20, 2021, 5:45:31 AM10/20/21
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Brian

Do you mean 50 mL/L = 50 ppm?

On Tue, Oct 19, 2021 at 9:52 PM Brian Drake <dra...@gmail.com> wrote:
I mix up a 5% solution in a 200mL reagant bottle.  1mL/L = 50ppm, so it’s a cinch to scale.  Do the calculations up front for making your solution and makes additions super simple.

Good luck!

Brian


On Tuesday, October 19, 2021, Steve Tolley <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:
HI Ray 
Thanks for the reply. I take it I've still got it wrong?
We could buy the sodium metabisulphite if that's easier. We just bought a load of Campden tablets as I thought it would be easier.
Thanks again Ray appreciate it mate
Steve

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Sent: Tuesday, 19 October 2021, 21:17
To: Workshop-Cider
Subject: Re: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use

Steve.

You may find it much easier to make a stock solution as outlined by Andrew Lea on his website? 

"To make a 5% stock solution of sulphur dioxide, dissolve around 10 grams of sodium or potassium metabisulphite in 100 ml of water. (The metabisulphite salts contain around 50 - 60% of available SO2 depending on how they've been stored).  Then 1 ml of this per litre of juice (5 ml per gallon) corresponds to 50 ppm (parts per million) of SO2." 



On Tue, 19 Oct 2021, 21:02 Steve Tolley, <stevet...@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi think I've sussed it
30litre container so 6.5 gallons
Eg pH of 3.6 to kill everything got to use 2 tablets per gallon so 6.5 x2 = 13 tabs per container

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Sent: Tuesday, October 19, 2021 6:06:19 PM
To: Cider Workshop <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: [Cider Workshop] Campden tablets and amount to use
Firstly apologies as I cant seem to get my small Hereford brain around the dosage of Tablets to must.
We are pressing for the first time this weekend, I have Andrew's book in front of me and I can see that 1 tablet will make 50ppm if dissolved in 1 gallon of water. Got that bit.
We will be using 30litre spiedel fermenting vessels.
So for example we have 30 litres of must at ph 3.5 how much of the campden tablet solution should I be adding to kill off the wild yeast etc.
We also want to try a wild yeast barrel so I understand its best to add 50% of that amount to the wild yeast barrel.
Apologies if this has been done to death but I'm sure once it clicks I'll be fine.
Hope this hasn't caused to much sighing or eye rolling
Cheers
Steve

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Brian Drake

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Oct 20, 2021, 5:50:02 AM10/20/21
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Yeah, my 5% solution is 50,000ppm to represent it another way, so 1mL/L is 1/1000 of that concentration or 50ppm in must/cider.

Eric Tyira

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Oct 20, 2021, 5:51:23 AM10/20/21
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Ray,

I think Steve’s confusion is two things:

1) is 1 mg of campden tablet the same as 1 mg of sodium metabisulfide?  

2) when folks say “add 50 ppm of SO2” do they mean add 50 mg of campden tablet to one liter of juice or since SO2 is roughly 50% of what comprises sodium metabisulfide, do they have to add 100 mg per liter?

I’ve struggled with this same thing, so this conversation is very helpful. 

Eric

Ray Blockley

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Oct 20, 2021, 5:58:42 AM10/20/21
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Hi Eric, 

Good questions...

My *understanding* is/was that Campden Tablets were a compressed form of sodium (or potassium - check label) metabisulphite. 
So being easier to measure doses for small quantities of juice / must / etc; plus being compressed they are not so rapid to release noxious SO2 fumes & therefore easier to handle...?   

Perhaps we need Andrew Lea to come to our rescue...? 🙂
I am no chemist by any stretch of the imagination. 

Ray

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Eric Tyira

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Oct 20, 2021, 5:59:47 AM10/20/21
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Thanks Brian

I think what Steve is looking for is clear instructions for a non-chemist (no offense Steve). 

1) mix XX mg of campden tablet into one liter of water

2) use YY mL of solution in ZZ L of juice to achieve a specific PPM of SO2, in this case, say we want 50 PPM

Can someone please help fill in the missing variables?

Ray Blockley

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Oct 20, 2021, 6:10:31 AM10/20/21
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I've no idea if this is of any use to anyone else, but I have this laminated & keep it in my fermenting shed so I can quickly work out the SO2 solution to be added after checking pH.
See attached) 
I know other UK makers have similar, some with columns for 30% / 50% and higher for when dealing with perry pears. 

Ray.    

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAKZkS6AusP7jHkFfdy%2BJKSZp%2BtP6G%2Be7is8yabkaGO0UdZzWuQ%40mail.gmail.com.
SG + ABV + SO2_B.jpg

Ray Blockley

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Oct 20, 2021, 6:13:47 AM10/20/21
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Should add, all my fermenters are in 60L, 120L & 220L sizes so the basic 60L columns are my go to start point. 

Ray.

 

Brian Drake

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Oct 20, 2021, 6:13:52 AM10/20/21
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Campden tablets were intended for hobbyists - easy dosage.  Problem is that there’s a bit of uncertainty between manufacturers on weight of tablet (standard is supposed to be 0.44g per tablet), fillers (??).  Brew supply store I buy from occasionally says 75ppm is achieved at 1 tablet per gallon (3.8L).  Wikipedia says 67ppm @ 1 tablet per gallon.  


Crushing the tablets seemed like a pain in the butt to me, so I found the % of SO2/KMBS as 57.6% by weight.  Here’s a quick site that walks through the math: https://www.drinksplanet.com/so2-potassium-metabisulfite-566257.html 

Highly recommend if you are looking to make fine additions of SO2 post-primary (arrest MLF, provide protection from oxygen, film yeast, acetobacter, etc).

Brian

Andrew Lea

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Oct 20, 2021, 3:14:56 PM10/20/21
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I’m not sure that I can “come to the rescue” as requested ;-) The questions originally raised were all about arithmetic, not chemistry, and both Ray and Steve have answered them totally satisfactorily.  Dosage details are in my book or on my website http://www.cider.org.uk/sulphite.html  and I’m not sure how I can make them any clearer. 

There is obviously some misunderstanding though about the history and nature of the Campden tablet. I wrote an essay on this a while back which you can find here http://www.cider.org.uk/campden.html.  

Just to be clear, a Campden tablet is not pure metabisulphite - it is bulked out with fillers and excipients to make it handleable, so that the actual weight of the tablet is irrelevant. The important thing to know is that 1 Campden tablet dissolved in an Imperial Gallon (or 4.5 litres) of liquid gives near enough 50 ppm of SO2 in solution. 

I hope this helps. 

Andrew 

Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

On 20 Oct 2021, at 10:57, Ray Blockley <raymond...@gmail.com> wrote:



dave pert

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Oct 21, 2021, 2:55:59 AM10/21/21
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Found this recently which is useful for containers over 50litres or so:


With a set of gram-accurate kitchen scales you can just weigh out how much sodium metabisulphite you need per vessel, then dilute with the minimum water. Calculator is for potassium  metabisulphite, but from what I gather there isn't enough difference to worry about.



Eric Tyira

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Oct 21, 2021, 6:54:35 AM10/21/21
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Thanks Dave

Very useful!   My personal difficulty was understanding how much KMBS was in a campden tablet.  

The other piece of confusion for me was when peeps say to add 50 ppm, my assumption was they add enough KMBS to achieve an effective 50 ppm.  This means for one liter, we’d add about 90 mg of KMBS per the calculator.  Is this assumption correct?

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Andrew Lea

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Oct 21, 2021, 7:55:15 AM10/21/21
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You really don’t need to know how much KMBS or NaMBS or how much filler is in a Campden Tablet. All you need to know is that each tablet is formulated to contain 260 mg of SO2 equivalent. Or should be. 

Again, when people talk about adding 50 ppm SO2, they mean just that. It could come from a solid salt, from a stock solution or even direct from a gas cylinder. That’s why we talk about the SO2 level you actually need rather than the method of getting to it. 

As it happens, 50 ppm SO2 should be provided by a dose of 90 mg KMS per litre because (fresh) KMS contains about 57% SO2. But the metabisulphites are not stoichiometric salts and there is no exact conversion. If you want an accurate measurement you have to make a stock solution and measure the SO2 level by iodine titration. Frankly this is rarely required except in large commercial operations. 

Andrew 

——————————
Wittenham Hill Cider Page

On 21 Oct 2021, at 11:53, Eric Tyira <secretc...@lostruinswinery.com> wrote:


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