beer and cider in the same facility, are compatible?
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David Sáenz
Apr 4, 2016, 1:27:23 PM4/4/16
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I will be very glad to know what profesional and hobbyist cidermakers think about making cider and beer in the same facility.
Is these advisible? at least posible?
Are some real facility working in these multiproduction arrangement? There are double proposit brands of reference that you know?
I see a lot of questions made from beer producers that are starting to make cider too. And sometimes I think that "only cider producers" are a little tired about that kind of "wrong thinking and obtrusive", but it could only be my missinterpretation of the language. I will thank some coments in that topic too.
Best regards, I am learning a lot here
David
Nathan Shackelford
Apr 4, 2016, 2:46:20 PM4/4/16
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Yes, it is possible.
Many home cider makers use the same fermentation vessels for both beer and cider. However, the mindset for making quality cider is much more patient compared to brewing beer. In process and dynamics it's winemaking. Beer lends itself to bulk ingredients yearound, consistency, and faster production. Cider and wine are impacted by nuances of the fruit and other factors that change year to year. For those differences to play out, it takes attention and time.
If a beer brewer wants to use apple juice as a "fruit wort" and crank out a consistent product, it is not the best or most interesting reflection of the fruit that it came from. Early on in my cidermaking I didn't think the time was a big deal, but now I try to hold my cider as long as possible before consuming it. I went from 4 weeks of aging to 6-9 months. When the cider takes up capacity for that long, it becomes expensive to make.
Many home cider makers use the same fermentation vessels for both beer and cider. However, the mindset for making quality cider is much more patient compared to brewing beer. In process and dynamics it's winemaking. Beer lends itself to bulk ingredients yearound, consistency, and faster production. Cider and wine are impacted by nuances of the fruit and other factors that change year to year. For those differences to play out, it takes attention and time.
If a beer brewer wants to use apple juice as a "fruit wort" and crank out a consistent product, it is not the best or most interesting reflection of the fruit that it came from. Early on in my cidermaking I didn't think the time was a big deal, but now I try to hold my cider as long as possible before consuming it. I went from 4 weeks of aging to 6-9 months. When the cider takes up capacity for that long, it becomes expensive to make.
David Sáenz
Apr 7, 2016, 8:55:28 AM4/7/16
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Thank you Nathan,
I think that proper adaptation of beer and cider in the same facility could make better use of all the facility, not just for the fermentors. I am talking about diferent places in the facility (deposit of bottles, packaging, finished product) and some equipment too (pasteurizer, bottle machine, CIP system, stainless steel barrels and others).
Also could be important the already working comercial distribution of gbeer, beeing beer and cider more compatible that beer and wine.
But all that is only an asumption, and if there are no real commercial brands that make beer and cider in the same profesional arrangement, then it could mean something...
My question come for the idea to sell cider dispensed directly from the barrels in the same bars that already are beeing selling beer, at least here in Argentina. I think that making just cider is not commercially recomendable here, starting for poor apple production.
I will be very glad to have more feedback in that topic!
David
Nathan Shackelford
Apr 7, 2016, 11:22:39 AM4/7/16
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David,
I'm not a commercial producer, so I cannot give you all the details on how this works. However, I can say that all the equipment that you mentioned in bottling and pasteurizing are used in cider making by commercial cidermakers. And, yes, there are beer brewing facilities that are making both beer and cider and sending it out to bars in kegs. There is some discussion as to whether they are making cider as good as their beer...
Some large producers may have separate facilities for that, but temperature controlled fermentations, filtering, bottling, pastuerizing are all the same process. The things that are different between the products are probably depend on how it can be inefficient to handle different products differently. In my own beverage making, the cider takes up space a lot longer than beer, and it's only made in the Fall.
A local brewery in my hometown made two batches (hopped and straight) of cider in 2014 and had it on tap in their brewpub for about 6 months till it was gone. I have a feeling that they ordered a tanker truck of juice and fermented it as an experiment. It was nice and dry, crisp with very little character, but I still preferred it to beer. They did not make cider again in 2015, to my disappointment.
I'm not a commercial producer, so I cannot give you all the details on how this works. However, I can say that all the equipment that you mentioned in bottling and pasteurizing are used in cider making by commercial cidermakers. And, yes, there are beer brewing facilities that are making both beer and cider and sending it out to bars in kegs. There is some discussion as to whether they are making cider as good as their beer...
Some large producers may have separate facilities for that, but temperature controlled fermentations, filtering, bottling, pastuerizing are all the same process. The things that are different between the products are probably depend on how it can be inefficient to handle different products differently. In my own beverage making, the cider takes up space a lot longer than beer, and it's only made in the Fall.
A local brewery in my hometown made two batches (hopped and straight) of cider in 2014 and had it on tap in their brewpub for about 6 months till it was gone. I have a feeling that they ordered a tanker truck of juice and fermented it as an experiment. It was nice and dry, crisp with very little character, but I still preferred it to beer. They did not make cider again in 2015, to my disappointment.
Ray Blockley
Apr 7, 2016, 12:47:12 PM4/7/16
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One point to remember is that some breweries pay a great deal of money for specific beer yeast strains and the right to use them - if contaminated by some other yeast strain, ie one brought in on apples &/or juice, there could be problems...
Ray.
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Alex
Apr 7, 2016, 1:37:47 PM4/7/16
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Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you should be wary of making cider in fermentation ranks used for beer as these are likely to be made using a grade of steel, 304, than is not suitable for fermenting cider due to the acidity of the cider, which could, over time apparently cause micro-pitting.
David Sáenz
Apr 7, 2016, 1:38:16 PM4/7/16
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Nathan, you are helping me a lot. Do you make cider for yourself? Dont thinking about reaching a commercial scale?
The example of you and your local brewery is very clear to me, an also the asumption that in big facilities could be very diferent.
Here is not usual to find someone who likes more cider than beer, but consumers will be glad to taste an option to the beer in his local brewpub. I think that good quality cider could have a chance in that niche, but I am not shure about what kind of comercial proyect is the best to take advantage of that oportunity.
For the moment I am playing with the idea. And a proyect exclusively dedicated to the cider production is not advisible because apple trees are to old and scarse here, and to reach a propper production scale will take a lot of time and effort. The opportunity should be confirmed for the potential consumers (buying increasingly bigger cider batches year to year) at the same time that the proyects grows, I think...And taking a brewery as a model to start, it seems like including a press and mill and some special places for fruit handling could be enough to make a integrated proyect with commercial chances.
But the question is still not solved to me. Is that a good idea?
David Sáenz
Apr 7, 2016, 1:52:37 PM4/7/16
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Thanks Ray, thats a very good point. Not only for the big money put in the yeast, but also for the product itself. Beer could easily be spoiled by wild yeasts and bacteria. And that chance will increase with cider production in the same place.
But in the other hand, beer and cider should be produced avoiding crosscontamination. Then, my question is about how is the best arrangement to have a chance of good quality beer and cider in the same facility.
I am a biotechnologist with some experience in local breweries, and my central interest is about yeasts. In my ideal "brewery-cider facility" I asume a speciall space to yeast handling and quality control.
David
David Sáenz
Apr 7, 2016, 2:05:54 PM4/7/16
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Good point too. I see a lot of cider proyects in internet using plastic vessels (thasts what I am using right now for my small batch cider) and even Big Bag in Box to avoid oxigen permeability.
However, in an ideal proyect of beer and cider in tghe same facility, compatible stainless steel should be used...
What kind of steel should be used in cider fermentation?
David
Dick Dunn
Apr 7, 2016, 3:33:37 PM4/7/16
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We've been round this before, perhaps that's why nobody has mentioned it
this time. 304 is OK for fermentation. Wineries use it all the time (as
do many cideries in the US at least). Pitting can occur where the surface
of the cider contacts the inside of the tank, if the cider is in contact
for a -long- time. If you intend aging in SS, then it's worth considering
316.
A much greater risk of metallic contamination for cider, if using brewing
equipment, is the presence of brass, copper, or plated fittings, valves,
etc. These are definitely not for use with cider as they can taint it in
short order.
On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:37:47AM -0700, Alex wrote:
> Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you should be wary of making cider in fermentation ranks used for beer as these are likely to be made using a grade of steel, 304, than is not suitable for fermenting cider due to the acidity of the cider, which could, over time apparently cause micro-pitting.
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Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
this time. 304 is OK for fermentation. Wineries use it all the time (as
do many cideries in the US at least). Pitting can occur where the surface
of the cider contacts the inside of the tank, if the cider is in contact
for a -long- time. If you intend aging in SS, then it's worth considering
316.
A much greater risk of metallic contamination for cider, if using brewing
equipment, is the presence of brass, copper, or plated fittings, valves,
etc. These are definitely not for use with cider as they can taint it in
short order.
On Thu, Apr 07, 2016 at 10:37:47AM -0700, Alex wrote:
> Since nobody else has mentioned it yet, you should be wary of making cider in fermentation ranks used for beer as these are likely to be made using a grade of steel, 304, than is not suitable for fermenting cider due to the acidity of the cider, which could, over time apparently cause micro-pitting.
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA
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