pondering the Franklin apple

[Dick Dunn]

(I'm trying to start a thread on Franklin which isn't hidden under KB.)

I've read and re-read the discussion on the US Franklin apple, and I keep
coming around to the same conclusion: This is not an apple that North
American cidermakers need. At the top, it simply doesn't have the right
set of basic characteristics. (There's at least one other problem.)

It's said to have high tannins, high acidity, and high sugars. But take a
more careful look at the numbers in proportion. Aside from the fortunate
aspect of high sugar (which is not common, yet not rare) it is about what
you'd expect for a wilding, a chance seedling. Johnny Appleseed gave us
millions of these. I can find a dozen different high-tannin, high-acid
wildings within a few miles of where I live, and I'm not even in Chapman's
path of wanderings.

The real problem is the proportions of acidity and tannin: It's so
fiercely acidic (pH 2.8, TA 0.78% per Terry Bradshaw) that you couldn't use
very much of it in a blend, so the tannins aren't that much of a draw.

We (in NA) would do far better to have more apples such as Claude's Douce
de Charlevoix or Banane Amere--bittersweets which provide the tannin without
having to fight the acidity.

OK, but what about the hardiness of Franklin? Isn't that a Good Thing?
Well, of course it is...but any other long-surviving seedling/wilding with
high tannin and acidity should be equally hardy and disease-resistant.
Acidity and tannin both discourage pests and problems, and long survival
is just natural selection at work. Nothing unusual here. And again, just
as example, Claude's couple of bittersweets are quite hardy.

The comparison between Franklin and Kingston Black is particularly
unfortunate, and that's been well opened-up here. They are very different
apples, to different purposes. That could be laid to rest easily enough,
BUT Stark Bros, the licensee/patent owner of Franklin, proclaims through
its overpowering marketing, that Franklin "will likely supplant 'Kingston
Black' (the current bittersharp cider apple benchmark)...<yadda yadda>"
per Stark's president/CEO.

The -reason- that's unfortunate is that Franklin offers absolutely no
competition to KB, so as soon as more naive orchardists discover this fact,
there will be a backlash against Franklin. That will be undeserved, since
it's judging Franklin against criteria it shouldn't be expected to meet.
As discussed here recently, it's a blending apple, one which can bring up
tannin usefully, and really pull up acidity.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 20 février 2017 00:23:18 UTC-5, Dick a écrit :

The real problem is the proportions of acidity and tannin:  It's so
fiercely acidic (pH 2.8, TA 0.78% per Terry Bradshaw) that you couldn't use
very much of it in a blend, so the tannins aren't that much of a draw.

Dick,
On this question of acidity, the Franklin doesn't appear to be worse than a few other highly praised cider apples...
Take for example the Wickson Crab, a variety much liked by a number of cider makers including Steve Wood.
As grown in my orchard, it tests at SG 1.065, TA 13 g/L malic, pH 3.2
Interestingly, both the TA and pH are higher than Franklin, which seems contradictory. But anyway, I guess these 2 varieties are in the same ball park for acidity...

 

We (in NA) would do far better to have more apples such as Claude's Douce
de Charlevoix or Banane Amere--bittersweets which provide the tannin without
having to fight the acidity.

I won't disagree with you on this...
But again, it is not the same usage. If I had an orchard of Red Delicious, and I wanted to make cider, probably the Franklin would be a better variety to blend with the existing apples.
And the Douce de Charlevoix and Banane amère also are far from perfect... The Douce ripens a bit early, and this might be problematic in places with long and hot summers. This is why I mostly recommend it for colder places.

For my part, the biggest potential problem I see with the Franklin is the minimal testing that has been done on it.

Usually, for dessert varieties, organisms that do breeding will test new varieties for years in numerous locations and will collect data on growth, productivity, pest resistance, fruit quality, and more from these different locations BEFORE releasing the variety in large scale. In the case of Franklin, none of this was done. Most of the data and analyses, juice and fermentation tests, (if not all) were done from the fruits produced by a single tree which is the seedling originally discovered. At this time, no one knows what sort of quality of fruit will be produced by grafted trees in a real commercial orchard. There are significant probabilities that the properties won't be the same... The oldest of the propagated trees are now 2 or maybe 3 years old - this is quite young to collect good data.
It surprises me very much that a large company like Starks invested such big money for the patent and large scale propagation without making more testing. I guess they have enough money to take that sort of risk, but for my part, I think this lacks professionalism. If by misfortune the variety doesn't prove as good as what the marketing says, what will happen?
Claude

[darlenehayes]

I agree wholeheartedly with Claude that touting an apple's chemistry as measured in one or two sets of growing conditions may tell an orchardist or cider maker very little about what to expect somewhere else. Furthermore, an apple, whether intended for cider or not, is more than just the sum of it's broad strokes chemical parts. One of the things I love about KB, especially those grown in our more arid west, is the distinct and wonderful flavors and aromas it brings to a well made cider - orange peel, cloves, cedar wood. Which is not to say that Franklin doesn't/won't bring something interesting to the flavor party, but the jury is still out and will be for some time. Talk of supplanting any other particular apple seems to me to be more marketing hype than anything else. Meanwhile I have some 40+ named varieties and 6 seedlings to evaluate under my own particular growing conditions to keep me busy.

Darlene

[Dick Dunn]

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 10:55:02PM -0800, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
...

> On this question of acidity, the Franklin doesn't appear to be worse than a
> few other highly praised cider apples...
> Take for example the Wickson Crab, a variety much liked by a number of
> cider makers including Steve Wood.
> As grown in my orchard, it tests at SG 1.065, TA 13 g/L malic, pH 3.2
> Interestingly, both the TA and pH are higher than Franklin, which seems
> contradictory. But anyway, I guess these 2 varieties are in the same ball
> park for acidity...

Claude - I'm very surprised at your Wickson numbers. If I didn't know your
abilities well enough to expect you got the testing right, I'd *really*
question that TA number!

My limited experience with Wickson says your pH sounds right and consistent
with what I've observed here. I don't normally do TA testing, but I do
taste all the juice, and I have a hard time imagining my Wickson being that
high here. I'd have thought it somewhere close to Ashmead's.

Back to Franklin, as you say it lacks testing in a variety of climates/
soils. Who knows how much greater acidity it might produce in your area?!?

[AW]

Dick (and others),

What is your opinion of the potential for screening a pool of wilding trees for individuals with advantageous composition?  If there was a high throughput method for obtaining BRIX, pH, [malic acid], [total polyphenols], and [condensed tannin]...do you think your few dozen wildings would yield at least one varietal worth propagating for cider/perry?

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 20 février 2017 13:36:18 UTC-5, Dick a écrit :

Claude - I'm very surprised at your Wickson numbers.  If I didn't know your
abilities well enough to expect you got the testing right, I'd *really*
question that TA number!

Dick, if you look at the graph on page 185 of my book, you'll see that a TA of 13 g/L as malic is pretty average for a pH of 3.2
In fact it is the numbers for the Franklin which puzzle me, with a pH of 2.83 and malic acid 7.77 g/L as measured by Terry. This gives a point completely below the 95% confidence interval you see on the graph. I don't want to say this is impossible, but it makes me wonder if the malic acid figure given is TA or true malic acid...
 

My limited experience with Wickson says your pH sounds right and consistent
with what I've observed here.  I don't normally do TA testing, but I do
taste all the juice, and I have a hard time imagining my Wickson being that
high here.  I'd have thought it somewhere close to Ashmead's.

Could it be that when you tasted it, the high sugar made you think the acidity wasn't that high?
I know that many (mostly late ripening) varieties get higher acidity as grown in my orchard than when grown in milder climate. I have tasted Wickson at Steve Wood's and definitely it wasn't as acidic as mine.
Ashmead is another one, testing here (3 tests) SG 1.071 to 1.078, TA 11 to 12, and pH 3.25 to 3.38. So yes, Wickson is somewhere close to Ashmead... Belle de Boskoop is also similar.
So as you can see, I have no problem having plenty of acidity in my blends... The opposite is more difficult! Hence for me, Franklin wouldn't be a particularely useful variety.

Claude

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

There seems to be some question of the accuracy on the PH reading for the Franklin Cider. Before a sample was sent to the University of Vermont for analysis of the raw components we had fermented for several seasons and measured a PH of 3.2. I understand  PH and percent% acidity will differ depending on the type of procedure or testing equipment used. I also understand it is a bit more sophisticated application when done in a lab environment. Never-the-less, I feel it is noteworthy to provide you with what was measured at the time we were blending our apples (our base) and adding to it the Franklin to increase potential alcohol and dryness (tannins). Surprisingly when adding the Franklin to our base we have produce a very pleasing and smooth finished product with excellent dryness. ("Crabs" listed is the Franklin). I think before we get too far into this we need to have another shot at another testing of the raw component profile of the Franklin coming from other labs. (testing below was done by Dave Smith who is German born, learned the craft of making fine hard cider in Belgium and Ireland.) I believe Claude is correct the PH numbers and Malic acid numbers do not add up as we have used the Franklin in all of our bases and have repeatedly produced a very nice cider.             

Fruit Evaluation
Type	Temp	Sugar	S.G.	pH	Acid %
Sweet 16	60`	15	1.06	3.2	0.65
Snow Sweet	60`	13	1.05	3.2	0.75
Honey Crisp	60`	13	1.046	3.2	0.60
NY Mac	60`	13	1.046	3.2	0.65
Liberty	60`	12	1.04	3.2	0.80
Honey Gold	60`	13	1.046	3.6	0.45
Crabs	60`	19	1.08	3.2	0.65
Fortune	60`	13	1.048	3.2	0.60
Potential

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 20 février 2017 15:08:46 UTC-5, AW a écrit :

What is your opinion of the potential for screening a pool of wilding trees for individuals with advantageous composition?  If there was a high throughput method for obtaining BRIX, pH, [malic acid], [total polyphenols], and [condensed tannin]...do you think your few dozen wildings would yield at least one varietal worth propagating for cider/perry?

For my part, I may have looked at over 100 wild apple trees in the immediate vicinity of my property. I would say about 1 out of 10 is good enough to bring a positive input to a cider blend. Of these, I make a few grafts and evaluate further. In addition of the 4 varieties that I already named, I have about half a dozen that I am currently evaluating. Some are quite promising...
Claude

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le lundi 20 février 2017 20:49:55 UTC-5, sand...@franklinvt.net a écrit :

There seems to be some question of the accuracy on the PH reading for the Franklin Cider. Before a sample was sent to the University of Vermont for analysis of the raw components we had fermented for several seasons and measured a PH of 3.2. 

Yes, I agree there is always the possibility of a measurement or transcription error in the figures you gave for the acidity of Franklin.

I would suggest you straighten this up as soon as possible...

And for the other data you gave in this new table, it looks as if the pH would have been obtained from strips since you only have 2 values there, 3.2 and 3.6. A proper pH-meter would have given 2 numbers after the decimal point, and would have given different results for the different varieties. In consequence, I would be very cautious about those numbers because strips are way too imprecise for this.
Claude

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

We will be doing further testing to more precisely measure Acidity, PH, and other raw components, as I understand these values are important when considering targets when blending to a base. In addition, I will be sending out a bottle of our latest batch blended with the Franklin to document its profile. I am in total agreement with all who have contributed to this forum, the Franklin is not a stand alone cider and will not "supplant" Kingston Black as a varietal cider. Conversely, as grower tested and verified by the nursery team at Stark Bro's expectation are high it will out perform Kingston Black in orchards across the country. This is of paramount importance where there is currently a shortage of spitter apples in a rapidly growing industry. The statement was made "as soon as naïve orchardist" I think this was intended in defense of Kingston Black, a comparison this orchardist does not care to make. An "experience cider maker" will find the right balance or ratio of Franklin juice to base and will realized the value of the Franklin in his/her finished product. We have done this, time and time again, with excellent reviews, and no matter how much others try to analyze the Franklin without first hand having to test and sample is an unfair judgment in my view.       

The statement was made: "I can find a dozen different high-tannin, high-acid wildings within a few miles of where I live, and I'm not even in Chapman's path of wanderings."  Knowing how important that would be to the cider industry, then why has he not done so?   

 I thank you Claude for the professionalism you have shown with our conversation about the Franklin Cider. The only regret I have is you not having a chance to sample our finished product. It all comes down to what's in the bottle that really counts.    

[AW]

I think I understand your frustration.  You have had a positive experience with the Franklin apple and some of the finished products which include Franklin in the blend, but the enthusiasm you expected from other experienced cidermakers has not been forthcoming.   

I think the resistance you are getting is coming from a intellectually honest place.  There are a couple key issues/assumptions that are fueling this disagreement.

(1) - The assumption that bittersharps are particularly rare might not be accurate depending on region and available populations of wild trees.  Dick and Claude have both pointed out that the rate of success in going out into nature and plucking a novel bittersharp off a seedling tree is relatively high.  You mention a "shortage of spitter apples"...while this is true for apples currently under cultivation it may not be true of the populations of wild apples in any given region.  In other words - rather than adopting the Franklin, cidermakers might be better served to go out and discover their own version in their own backyard.    

(2) - The utility of bittersharps is limited if the acid content gets too high.  Reading through the comments, it seems that most cidermakers in North America are seeking bittersweets rather than bittersharps due to the fact that sharp culinary/cooking apples are cheap and abundant for blending purposes.  Regarding discovery of novel bittersharps you asked "Knowing how important that would be to the cider industry, then why has he not done so?"...it seems that the importance/demand for bittersharps might not be as strong as you think it is. 

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 21 février 2017 11:50:00 UTC-5, AW a écrit :

I think the resistance you are getting is coming from a intellectually honest place.  There are a couple key issues/assumptions that are fueling this disagreement.

These are 2 very valuable points/thoughts.
I would add a third one: the fact that it has been patented and that it is in the hands of Stark Bros. I have discussed this privately with Bill some time ago, and while I don't do my thing the same way he has chosen, I nevertheless respect his decision because he firmly believes this is the most efficient way to promote the variety and have the maximum number of trees in orchards, and that this is the best that may happen to the US cider industry.
We may or may not agree...
However it should be understood that most people in this community/forum believe in sharing experience, in generosity for helping other cider makers, many will send for free scion wood of their discoveries to other cider makers. All of this sort of clashes with an approach of patented, protected variety, royalty payments, non-propagating agreements, and all that goes with the approach that Bill has chosen to take. Hence some natural resistance...
Claude

[Steve Carol]

Regarding the conversation on the Franklin Cider Apple. Given the limited amount of fruit there is a corresponding limited use of the apple in anyone’s cider. There needs to be a large amount of research that can only happen with a large amount of apples. That can happen only when enough trees have been planted to yield enough apples.

I agree that only time will tell if the tree stands up to expectations. Unless it gets planted we’ll never know how it fits into a commercial operation.

What is wrong with having alternative fruit in North America that may help reduce our (the cider industry on this side of the pond) reliance of the none-cider fruit that is primarily available now?

I think I am the only cider maker that has used the Franklin in any commercial product. Perhaps the only commercial cider maker who has done any serious evaluation of the fruit. The ciders we have made use a small percentage of the Franklin in the blends. It certainly is not an apple that stands on its’ own, but as a factor in enhancement, which the public likes, it gets my attention. Enough attention that I have 75 trees coming in this spring (thanks Bill for your help getting em). This will be enough trees for us to expand our research (it is hard to do more with only the fruit from Bill’s one tree, even if I do get just about all of it) and maybe have fruit for others to start their own evaluations.

Steve Stata (Hall Home Place Ciders)

[Dick Dunn]

Responding to "sandybay"'s note a bit out of order, let me first answer:

> The statement was made: "I can find a dozen different high-tannin,
> high-acid wildings within a few miles of where I live, and I'm not even in
> Chapman's path of wanderings." Knowing how important that would be to the
> cider industry, then why has he not done so?

taking it out of the passive voice, I said that.
It would NOT be important to the cider industry to find high-tannin, high-
acid wildings! They're everywhere. That's my point.

before that, "sandybay" said:
> ....I am in total agreement with all who have contributed to

> this forum, the Franklin is not a stand alone cider and will not "supplant"

> Kingston Black as a varietal cider...

OK, we're all on the right page there. But then why do you say:

>...Conversely, as grower tested and

> verified by the nursery team at Stark Bro's expectation are high it

> will out perform Kingston Black in orchards across the country...

How can it "out perform" an apple with which it is not comparable??
When you keep repeating a comparison with Kingston Black, people will
call you on it.

and the next sentence...
>...This is of

> paramount importance where there is currently a shortage of spitter

> apples in a rapidly growing industry...

That's a curious statement. (Aside, Kingston Black isn't a "spitter".)
But mainly, the shortage of cider fruit is because the industry is trying
to grow faster than cider trees can be planted and come up to bearing.
Franklin can't offer a lot of help there since it's a bittersharp, not a
bittersweet. That restricts its usefulness.

> ...and no matter

> how much others try to analyze the Franklin without first hand having to
> test and sample is an unfair judgment in my view.

I think some of this is a side problem that people are judging the
marketing hype. Franklin may be a very good niche cider apple if judged
on its own merits instead of on the hype.
But we CAN make certain judgments, let's say about "usefulness" rather than
merit, based on the numbers.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mardi 21 février 2017 19:06:07 UTC-5, Dick a écrit :

>...Conversely, as grower tested and
> verified by the nursery team at Stark Bro's expectation are high it
> will out perform Kingston Black in orchards across the country...

How can it "out perform" an apple with which it is not comparable??
When you keep repeating a comparison with Kingston Black, people will
call you on it.

Dick, I gather what was meant here is performance of tree in orchard, i.e. vigor, productivity, resistance.
And in effect, it is not difficult to outperform Kingston Black on these traits, as it is well known KB is particularely capricious and will not perform well in many locations.
KB is not particularely hardy either, as I grafted it twice and it died both times during the winter!
However, this statement is still quite premature since yet there are no adult trees in orchards anywhere across the country... In effect it is based only on the observation of very young trees at Stark's nursery. Again, time will tell if adult trees will retain the same qualities.
Claude

[Dick Dunn]

Claude has brought up an important point in the matter of the plant patent
on the Franklin apple. I agree strongly with what Claude said; I'd wanted
to say something myself but couldn't find a tactful way to come around to
it.

Like Claude, I find the idea of a patented and restricted cider variety at
odds with how the cider community has operated up until now. Personally,
I won't plant patented apple varieties here at our farm--it's not worth the
hassle, the limited availability, and the restrictions. Fortunately, my
attitude is tenable because there are so many good cider varieties available
without restrictions. (Patented rootstock has been a different matter.)

Plus, the idea of patenting a variety like Franklin--a chance seedling--
bothers me even more than a deliberate cross. I can see that the effort in
making and evaluating many crosses is an amount of effort and intellect
that could be compared to "inventing". Yet I can't grasp how finding a
naturally occurring tree should grant intellectual property rights. It
doesn't matter; the law allows and upholds it. But I don't have to like
it.

On Tue, Feb 21, 2017 at 09:25:56AM -0800, Claude Jolicoeur wrote:
...snip...

> These are 2 very valuable points/thoughts.
> I would add a third one: the fact that it has been patented and that it is
> in the hands of Stark Bros. I have discussed this privately with Bill some
> time ago, and while I don't do my thing the same way he has chosen, I
> nevertheless respect his decision because he firmly believes this is the
> most efficient way to promote the variety and have the maximum number of
> trees in orchards, and that this is the best that may happen to the US
> cider industry.
> We may or may not agree...
> However it should be understood that most people in this community/forum
> believe in sharing experience, in generosity for helping other cider
> makers, many will send for free scion wood of their discoveries to other
> cider makers. All of this sort of clashes with an approach of patented,
> protected variety, royalty payments, non-propagating agreements, and all
> that goes with the approach that Bill has chosen to take. Hence some
> natural resistance...
> Claude

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

 .

Dick stated: "OK, we're all on the right page there.  But then why do you say:"

Bill stated: >...Conversely, as grower tested and

> verified by the nursery team at Stark Bro's expectation are high it
> will out perform Kingston Black in orchards across the country...

Dick stated: How can it "out perform" an apple with which it is not comparable??

When you keep repeating a comparison with Kingston Black, people will
call you on it.

Please allow me to explain: I'm addressing this as an experienced orchardist, because an experienced cider maker, I am not. The Franklin can "out perform" as a tree to grow, as was pointed out in my statement "as grower tested". The Kingston Black is harder to grow and is a modest yielding variety. The apples are quite little, and need thinning. It has a pronounced biannual habit and low resistance to scab and canker. It is said to not be very winter-hardy. For that reason, there are more reliable vintage apples one could grow. This is what I have been repeating,  the Franklin has demonstrated to be a better choice for growers looking to produce a reliable crop to turn a buck. As a commercial grower, I would not consider growing a variety with such poor growing qualities, well knowing I can grow fruiting apples that turn over a much greater profit. This is what I meant by "out performed" and any further discussion other than "growing" would be missing the point.

 For the reader that doesn't know about the Franklin, let me tell you of its attributes: The Franklin has proven to be a reliable annual producer as monitored over a ten year period. The Franklin is scab and CAR resistant as studied and observed at Stark Bros Nursery. The Franklin Cider apple hangs well on the tree and is very suited for mechanical harvesting. Harvest yields have varied from 22 bushels to 30 bushels from the parent tree as witnessed by Dr Terry Bradshaw of UVM and Steve Stata of Halls Homeplace Cider. The Franklin Cider can be maintained with minimal sprays. Bloom time is mid-bloom and thought to be an excellent pollinator for honeycrisp. The Franklin is proven winter-hardy for zone 3a. The Franklin has demonstrated at the nursery to be vigorous and stated to be one of the best growers they have seen.   

I agree with you if I keep making a comparison of Kingston Black vs Franklin Cider, growing qualities that is, "people will call me on it", but they will be calling to learn more. I fully understand there is much to learn about how the Franklin will do in regions across the country, but I feel it is worth given a chance.                   

 

 

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

Dick, I would like to stay on point "pondering the Franklin Apple". There appears to be a clear dichotomy between me trying to open up a conversation to what I have learned about the Franklin and your personal views on how a cider community you support  works. You seem to be hold to a set of tenets or beliefs that are in sharp contrast to the larger cider makers I have either worked with or are looking for a highly productive varieties to enhance their ciders. I no less discount your accomplishment for having made a prize winning ice cider, which takes less intellect to produce then a more sophisticated dry cider, then you should for all the hard work I have put into this project. If you only knew the pressings, fermentations, taste samplings, cataloging and profiling plant information to patent, you would would think otherwise. And please don't post false information about restrictions or availability of a patented variety. Stark will produce and make available far more trees then your jester of generosity of passing out a few scion as a good-will thing. Quite frankly, I am bewildered by some of the statements you have made. I understand your passion for making traditional ciders, the kind that explores old world vintage varieties. They are no doubt the best apples in the world to use and I honor the British for making most of this possible. But this is North America, and I feel the Franklin Cider with its unique growing features and proven use as a blend will establish its place once tried.           

[Alan stone]

Administrators - is this thread about cider or is it advertising?

Sent from my iPhone

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To post to this group, send email to cider-w...@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.

[Jez Howat (BT)]

Alan,

 

I have been pondering this and will be discussing with the admins… ‘SandyBay’ does seem to border on pushing this one particular apple rather too hard, although it has been a healthy discussion. We have to bear in mind this is an international forum and there is room for all styles of discussion.

 

However, I may impose a TL:DR on it… for those that don’t know it is one of the few facebook’isms’ that I quite like. It stands for ‘Too Long: Didn’t Read’. If you are going to write a wall of text then summarise it in a sentence at the top under ‘TL:DR’. I am not in GOM mode today or else I would be asking posters to just go with the summary and leave the wall of text out.

 

The other thing is the non-signing off. I don’t like that personally and wish I knew Sandywotsits real name… and a few others too. But there you go.

 

For what it is worth, Sandy, please try not to make it like an advert… I think we realise you are invested in this apple, but perhaps have not appreciated that there is more to a cider apple than just abundance. Google Bramley if you want an equivalent.

 

Also, while I am at it Sandy, please refrain from taking shots at those who disagree with you. We do react badly to personal comments and you should know that Dick is a hugely respected member of this community with a wealth of experience – and I would belittle his opinion at your peril.

 

Finally, Alan, you cannot compare what grows in the USA to what grows in the UK unless you have some direct knowledge of the differences.

 

My own comment is this: people like Liz Copas have spent a lifetime researching and working with apple cultivars, and I have to ask myself why they bred the new UK cider varieties instead of finding them from wildings. I think the answer is that wildings are not as good. Most of the great British and French cider varieties (well, varieties full stop) have been bred and not ‘found at the side of a road’, and I think that this has to count against the odds of the new ‘best’ cider apple coming by chance from a wilding. Not saying it couldn’t/doesn’t happen, but it’s a pretty safe bet that the best varieties will have been made that way on purpose.

 

Anyway, I will consult with the other admins to see if they concur.

 

All the best

 

Jez

[Tim]

Jez,

 

Yarlington Mill. J

 

Tim in Dorset

---

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

Jez,

       I came to this thread to have an interesting conversation about the Franklin Cider and I felt there were things said to me that were inflammatory and counter-productive. I am well prepared to take negative feedback provided it is given in a kind and considerate manner. I ask the "Administrators" to allow me to continue a conversation about the Franklin. I think we have philosophical difference in how a cultivar should be offered to the cider world, but in the end what is important is uncovering the real value of a variety, like the Franklin Cider. In the interest of this group, I will reframe from responding to any post with opposing views. Rather, if the Administrators would allow me to, I will provide reviews (testimony) from Cideries that have or currently testing cider blended with the Franklin. It would be sad to think the Franklin Cider was not given a fair chance for all who read this thread to hear the opinions of those who have actually experienced testing it and to leave this thread with only the opinions of those who have not worked with it at all.

If it were not for the testimonies repeating over and over again about how "unique and excellent" hard cider is when blended to the Franklin, I would have ran off the stage a long time ago. I just got off the phone with a  well known cider maker who just sampled a bottle, and he has a very interesting story to tell about his experience with the Franklin Cider. He said he would E-Mail his story over the weekend.                    

 

I apologize to Dick if I offended him in anyway. 

thanks,

Bill Mayo

For those of you who don't know me.

(My name is Bill Mayo and my wife Susan and I are owners of the Franklin General Store and Sandy Bay Orchards in Franklin, Vermont). I posted as "ME" because I have tried to download my name to my Goggle account and still have not figured it out. I have been logged on in the past on my cell phone without realizing it, so will try to better about logging off. I did not have a Google account in the beginning and was set up

by my future son-in-law "Hector Lopez" who's name came up in the beginning because things were sent in his name and E-Mail address by mistake. I will get my sign-in straightened out.

:

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Le mercredi 22 février 2017 15:28:07 UTC-5, sand...@franklinvt.net a écrit :

       I came to this thread to have an interesting conversation about the Franklin Cider and I felt there were things said to me that were inflammatory and counter-productive. I am well prepared to take negative feedback provided it is given in a kind and considerate manner. I ask the "Administrators" to allow me to continue a conversation about the Franklin. I think we have philosophical difference in how a cultivar should be offered to the cider world, but in the end what is important is uncovering the real value of a variety, like the Franklin Cider. In the interest of this group, I will reframe from responding to any post with opposing views. Rather, if the Administrators would allow me to, I will provide reviews (testimony) from Cideries that have or currently testing cider blended with the Franklin. It would be sad to think the Franklin Cider was not given a fair chance for all who read this thread to hear the opinions of those who have actually experienced testing it and to leave this thread with only the opinions of those who have not worked with it at all.

Bill,
All this is fine, but you also need to be fair and honest.

For the interest of the whole group and to clarify things, please answer these 2 questions:
1- How many trees of the Franklin variety are currently bearing fruit?
Or, as a corrolary of the same question, the data you gave about the productivity and about the qualities of the juice from Franklin come from the average of how many trees? And in how many locations?
2- How old are the oldest grafted trees of Franklin (excluding your original seedling which you already said is about 60 years old).
Thanks,
Claude

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

1- How many trees of the Franklin variety are currently bearing fruit? Answer: Only the parent tree on our property. The parent tree crops annually producing between 22 to 30 bushels per year. .   

 And in how many locations? Answer: There are no other locations at this time where Franklin Cider Apple trees are planted.   

 2- How old are the oldest grafted trees of Franklin : Answer: There are currently 3,500 Franklin Cider Apples budded in 2015 and sold out for 2017. There are approximately 13,000 budded in 2016 and all but sold out for 2018. Pre-bud orders are now being accepted and will not have a firm number until September. Dr Terry Bradshaw informed me he will be planting 25 Franklin Cider in the spring at the University of Vermont Horticultural Farm site.   

Bill   

[Andrew Lea]

Bill,

You came on this list, without giving us your name or back story, solely
to promote the orchard performance and vintage value of a new cider
apple called the Franklin, in which you have a commercial interest. It
sounded interesting. You implied there was good data to support your
assertions.

Now we learn there is just one fruit bearing tree, many years old, in
just one location on your property. There is no data on its orchard
performance when young on dwarf rootstocks, in different soils and
climates, or indeed in any other locations at all. There is no data on
the cider made from any tree but this single one of yours. Is that what
you are now telling us?

I am grateful for your honesty but how do you expect us to take you and
your assertions seriously? I suggest you go away, do the work needed,
and come back in ten years time to tell us what you have learnt. If the
Franklin still stacks up by then, people might begin to take you seriously.


Andrew Lea

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

Andrew please allow me to give you a little history: Since 2008 we have been using the Franklin Apple in Sweet Cider blends sold at our store. Recognized for having high sugar, high acid, high tannins we started to use it as in a blend making hard cider. We continued to process hard cider yearly and were convinced by the excellent feedback we have something special. By 2015 we had received reviews from Eden Ice, Boyden Valley, Eve's Cidery w/ Steve Cummins Nursery, Vermont Hard Cider, Stowe Cidery, and Halls Home Place Cider. Many identified the Franklin enhancement to a base as "excellent",  and all were interested in one way or another to work with it. In 2016 a Franklin blend was showcased at several shows by Halls Home Place Cidery and the feedback again has been very positive. As recent as early January 2017, we set out sample bottles of our 2015 blend and currently awaiting the reviews. The Franklin cider tree grafts have been grown and tested at the Stark Bros site in Louisiana, Missouri for 2 years. It was reported back to us the Franklin to be one of the best growing trees for at the Nursery. .  

I think the collection of experienced Cider Makers and Growers listed who support my claim the Franklin being an excellent apple for blending and good growing features should be seriously taken. I started my journey in 2008, Nine years ago, and having paid my dues feeling no need to go away. I know many watching this thread will tell me "more data is needed", "how can you judge this coming off a single tree", How will it perform in other regions", I get this. I only ask for your patience and allow me to report in when a review comes available and report how well the trees are performing regionally. If you feel it necessary, for what ever reason to not want to hear what I or other cider makers have to say about the Franklin, then fine. I will recuse myself from this thread. But I feel it is worth listening. You folks have really helped me keep centered on what needs to be done for the future of the Franklin Cider, be it good or bad. I need a watchful eye of experts like Claude, Dick, and you to help see me through.                                  

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Thank you Bill for these factual answers.
I admit that I already knew these answers, but I thought it was important to have a confirmation from you.
No doubt that you have an exceptional tree there, no one will argue on this. The productivity is simply amazing - my own best tree gives between 7 and 9 bu per year, and I think this is very good. I wish I had a few that give me 20! Plus it seems the quality is also good.

But, you need to understand there is a huge difference between a single tree, and a variety at large... You should know, as you have some 400 Honeycrisp trees in your orchard. I am sure a few of those trees are much better than the average, healthier, more productive year after year. And also you probably have some that don't do as well as the average. That is the way it goes, you can't draw conclusions from just one exceptionnally good tree.
You also have to be ready for the fact grafted orchard trees probably will not give fruit of the same quality. Expect a reduction of 20 to 30% of sugar content. Also no doubt a reduction of the tannins and of the acidity. Grafted trees may not be as productive and pest resistant as your seedling.
This is why we need data from real field tests before being able to draw reasonable conclusions.
At this time, the only assertion you should make is that the Franklin is showing good potential, it is a promising new variety that needs a lot more testing to validate its qualities.
Growers who plant it should be warned that the variety hasn't been tested and is still experimental.

It will be interesting to follow the 1000's of trees already sold out. When these start producing, you will be able to evaluate the Franklin properly. Only then, you will have solid data to back your claims.

Claude

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

The potential is there even with a 20% to 30% reduction of sugar, acid, and tannins since all three values are high to begin with. I will hold back further comments until the trees have a chance to speak for themselves growing at different locations. There will be close to 700 trees growing across Vermont which I will monitor in 3 different Zones and will keep you up to date on their progress.

[Jeff Hanson]

Bill, As a FYI - I am planting 26 of your Franklins this spring in north central Wisconsin (zone 4a) purchased from Cummins Nursery.
Jeff

[sand...@franklinvt.net]

I have always thought of Wisconsin as the "Sister State to Vermont " with its rich soils and similar growing climate. Expectations are great the Franklin will grow well in most parts of the country, based on information coming out of the nursery. Since I am under they watchful look of those who have fairly questioned how well it will preform in parts unknown and regions not aligned to our climate zones we will need to wait and see how well it will do on a broader scale.The professionals at Stark's Nursery recognizes the excellent disease resistance and growth habits of the Franklin which should get you off to a good start.

[Frozen North Fruit]

So, anyone have any updates on the famous Franklin Cider apple?  Juice characteristics.  Post fermentation blends?   2023 would have been 6 years from release so I would have expected to have more news by now.

I got a small first crop last year. Grown USDA 3b.  Winter thaw usually 1st to second week april.  First frost usually late sept or early oct.  Minimum temps -30-34C.

These are CRAB APPLES, mine were averaging 50-60g. Yellow-green with slight pink/red blush on sunny side and 30%+ russeting.  No huge disease as yet though a fair amount of sooty blotch.   On my refractometer they were 19-20 brix! Very acidic and quite tannic BUT not crazy so. Way less than a Frequin Rouge I had grown in the past. Franklin I could tolerate in my mouth. Frequin Rouge was impossibly puckering.

I actually paid to have them tested by a lab.

SG 1,0844

Malic acid 27,23 g/L

Total Polyphenols by colorimetry 11459 mg/L

I do not know if this is a true tannin level. As from data from:

https://www.mdpi.com/2306-5710/6/3/55#app1-beverages-06-00055

Has Frequin Rouge as 0.42mg/ml = which is 420mg/L or 25x less but that number does not make sense either compared to other data I have seen from the Quebec RECUPOM trials (https://www.agrireseau.net/agriculturebiologique/documents?a=1&r=recupom).

So while I am not certain about the laboratory testing, the apples ripened in 3b, were very small, were very sweet, had to my taste moderate, sharp tannins. The tannins were NOT as interesting as the only cider apple I have tasted previously which was Frequin Rouge which had more flavor and seemed "rounder, smoother". I will post back in future years but am very interested to hear others experiences, especially if you have some tannin numbers and can compare to traditional cider varieties.