Why aren't dessert apples sharp cider apples?

[love.client]

Cider apples are usually divided into sweet, sharp, bitter and bittersweet apples. According to standard definitions, most dessert apples would fit into the sharp apple category; they typically have more than 0.45% malic acid and less than 0.2% total phenolic content. Yet, dessert apples don't seem to be called sharp cider apples, but instead... dessert apples. So... is there a clear, measurable difference that distinguishes sharp cider apples from dessert fruit? Or is this nomenclature simply a question of tradition?

[Andrew Lea]

Dessert apples are those which are fit and enjoyable for eating fresh. Sharp cider apples may have the same acid / tannin range as dessert apples, but they will often be very small, have thick tough skins, and fibrous chewy flesh which presses well but is unpleasant to eat. Also some sharp cider apples eg Foxwhelp are so extremely acid that they are unpalatable to eat fresh.

So, you could say that all dessert apples are sharp apples (by analysis), but not all sharp cider apples are dessert apples.

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 6 Oct 2022, at 12:48, love.client <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

Cider apples are usually divided into sweet, sharp, bitter and bittersweet apples. According to standard definitions, most dessert apples would fit into the sharp apple category; they typically have more than 0.45% malic acid and less than 0.2% total phenolic content. Yet, dessert apples don't seem to be called sharp cider apples, but instead... dessert apples. So... is there a clear, measurable difference that distinguishes sharp cider apples from dessert fruit? Or is this nomenclature simply a question of tradition?

--
--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/633ec02a.050a0220.dd1d6.f749%40mx.google.com.

[LL]

Ok, thanks. And the reason dessert apples are typically not favored by cider producers would be that these apples simply are thought to be poor cider apples? Or are there other reasons?

Kind regards 

Love

[Wes Cherry]

Dessert apples tend to press poorly.   Not all varieties though.

There are crossovers that make decent if thin cider.   Macs, newtown pippin, Jonagold, karmijn, for example.    The latter three press well if not overripe.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Oct 6, 2022, at 8:39 AM, LL <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

Ok, thanks. And the reason dessert apples are typically not favored by cider producers would be that these apples simply are thought to be poor cider apples? Or are there other reasons?

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/ba33729d-cb60-477e-80a6-051c0598c658n%40googlegroups.com.

[Ray Blockley]

As a cidermaker who uses predominantly dessert apples - some of which Wes has listed - much depends on your market & styles you are trying to produce? Here in the UK we have "Eastern Counties" style ciders which are mostly a blend of dessert, culinary & dual purpose - the lighter, white-wine like ciders they produce are very popular, especially when sparkling. 

As to pressing, fine mesh cloths are perfect, even when the mixed dessert & culinary are very ripe & soft. 

We use "regular cider apples" too including bittersweets & bittersharps. 

Plus we produce a range of "co-ferments" & blends using various ratios of dessert & culinary v. "true" cider apples.

It enables a broad range of cider styles to be offered to our customer base.

It's also great fun to experiment... 

Ray

Nottingham UK 

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/8F8D9101-D807-4EEF-8EE3-D753EE852CBD%40dragonsheadcider.com.

[Ray Blockley]

Need to add we use a Voran pack press so changing press cloths is fairly straightforward.

Ray

[Dick Dunn]

No, it's also that they don't press well. See Andrew's comment below.
Milling cider apples gives a result that presses well, whereas dessert
fruit often forms a slippery pulp which binds up in the press and doesn't
yield juice well.

On Thu, Oct 06, 2022 at 08:39:16AM -0700, LL wrote:
> Ok, thanks. And the reason dessert apples are typically not favored by
> cider producers would be that these apples simply are thought to be poor
> cider apples? Or are there other reasons?
>
> Kind regards
> Love
> torsdag 6 oktober 2022 kl. 14:28:02 UTC+2 skrev Andrew Lea:
>
> > Dessert apples are those which are fit and enjoyable for eating fresh.
> > Sharp cider apples may have the same acid / tannin range as dessert apples,
> > but they will often be very small, have thick tough skins, and fibrous
> > chewy flesh which presses well but is unpleasant to eat. Also some sharp
> > cider apples eg Foxwhelp are so extremely acid that they are unpalatable to
> > eat fresh.
> >
> > So, you could say that all dessert apples are sharp apples (by analysis),
> > but not all sharp cider apples are dessert apples.
> >
> > Andrew
> >
> > Wittenham Hill Cider Page
> > www.cider.org.uk
> >
> > On 6 Oct 2022, at 12:48, love.client <love....@gmail.com> wrote:
> >

> > ???Cider apples are usually divided into sweet, sharp, bitter and

> > bittersweet apples. According to standard definitions, most dessert apples
> > would fit into the sharp apple category; they typically have more than
> > 0.45% malic acid and less than 0.2% total phenolic content. Yet, dessert
> > apples don't seem to be called sharp cider apples, but instead... dessert
> > apples. So... is there a clear, measurable difference that distinguishes
> > sharp cider apples from dessert fruit? Or is this nomenclature simply a
> > question of tradition?
> >

--

Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[LL]

Thanks Andrew, Wes, Raymond and Dick!

It makes sense that cider apples are selected for being easy to press. But how do producers of apple juice/soft cider go about this issue? Do they  select sharp cider apples for their juice production, if these are easier to press than dessert apples? And could dessert apples/eating apples be made more friendly to press by some appropriate enzyme treatment of the mash before pressing? 

I am glad to hear you say that dessert apples can give good results for white wine style cider. This is basically what I am currently trying to do. I have started a nano-scale cider production with my girlfriend at her family's orchard in southern Sweden. They grow ~60 varieties of dessert apples, but no cider apples. (We have introduced a few French cider trees, but they are still too young to give fruit.)

Best

Love

[Andrew Lea]

If you are making apple juice from dessert apples for drinking straight, there are several approaches. Amongst which are …..

Choose cultivars carefully and use fruit which is not over-ripe.  Use fine mesh cloths as Ray said.  Use less than maximum pressure on the fruit - a slow gentle squeeze gets best results. Add press-aids eg rice-hulls or wood chips. Incubate the apple mash with pectolytic enzymes before pressing. 

It’s only high-end producers that need to worry about these things.  The majority of apple juice on the market is actually made from re-diluted (usually Chinese) concentrate which is mash-depectinised before pressing using enzyme technology, which is also necessary to stop the 70 Brix concentrate from becoming apple jam ;-)

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 6 Oct 2022, at 22:00, LL <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Andrew, Wes, Raymond and Dick!

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/26ce8aa2-00bb-41c2-acac-82b301cfe36bn%40googlegroups.com.

[Claude Jolicoeur]

I am really surprised by this discussion on market/eating apple varieties not pressing well. This is not my experience... Most of my apples are still standard varieties (although my cider apples produce a larger fraction of the total crop every year). I haven't seen much difference - if any - in the yield from eating apples vs cider apples. And there are many commercial orchards around that grow McIntosh, Spartan, Cortland and other market apples, and press and sell fresh juice. I never heard about any problem pressing these. Plus most cideries in Quebec use these same varieties for making cider and have no issues pressing the apples.

[LL]

We use a small press with a hydraulic jack and we have pressed a number of eating apples - among which are Cox's Orange, Cox's Pomona, Belle de Boskoop, Spartan, Cortland - without too much trouble. (We now usually treat the mash with pectolase before pressing.) We have, however, had troubles when pressing pears; they sometimes seem to jellify under pressure and retain the juice.

[Andrew Lea]

Maybe it’s not the case for you Claude, but here in the south of England it’s much more of a problem to press dessert varieties than cider varieties, especially if they are fully ripe and all the starch is gone. The attached picture with pulp oozing through the cloths is all too familiar to me when juicing dessert apples!

Andrew

Wittenham Hill Cider Page

www.cider.org.uk

On 6 Oct 2022, at 22:26, Claude Jolicoeur <cjol...@gmail.com> wrote:

I am really surprised by this discussion on market/eating apple varieties not pressing well. This is not my experience... Most of my apples are still standard varieties (although my cider apples produce a larger fraction of the total crop every year). I haven't seen much difference - if any - in the yield from eating apples vs cider apples. And there are many commercial orchards around that grow McIntosh, Spartan, Cortland and other market apples, and press and sell fresh juice. I never heard about any problem pressing these. Plus most cideries in Quebec use these same varieties for making cider and have no issues pressing the apples.

--

--
Visit our website: http://www.ciderworkshop.com
 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the "Cider Workshop" Google Group.
By joining the Cider Workshop, you agree to abide by our principles. Please see http://www.ciderworkshop.com/resources_principles.html
---
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Cider Workshop" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to cider-worksho...@googlegroups.com.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/beee320f-d24c-4cf5-b7da-86164ae09d22n%40googlegroups.com.

[LL]

Thanks Andrew! I assume that the solution with not too ripe fruit can yield a nice, fresh juice but that with cider, ripe fruit is preferred. Is there less pectin in cider apple varieties than in eating apples, or what causes the differences?

[Stephen Buffington]

I’m glad ripeness was brought into the conversation. It is one of many cultural elements that often leads to our opinion and use of dessert versus cider apples. All varieties have inherent differences but how they are cultivated is often starkly different. Dessert apples are usually pruned heavy for color, chemically thinned for size, picked early for storage and are usually only affordable to cidermakers after they have been picked over, a year old in cold storage or left on the trees to long because of labor or low demand. In other words we cidermakers often get not great dessert fruit. 

At my place (Western WA,USA) 60-70 trees are dessert fruit (many “dual purpose”) and 30-40 are only for cider. All that are not eaten or sold are turned into cider and they all press fine with a bladder press if you don’t let them go too long. Cider varieties definitely come out dryer but the dessert ones are ok. 

In the orchard they are mostly treated the same, since I don’t do as much thinning as I should for the valuable varieties. The main way to tell them apart is size (genetics) but also pest damage, which is severe in dessert fruit. 

I think the biggest challenge with heavy percentages of dessert come in the cidery. As has been mentioned these apples lend themselves to champagne style ciders. I would pick yeast varieties that maximize mouthfeel and minimize acidity unless you want really bright, thin ciders. Adding some bittersweet’s will definitely give you more options. 

I think your orchard mix will probably make a good cider. Just be sure your expectations match what you have and plan accordingly. Good luck,

Stephen Buffington

Shawnee Hill Farm

206.941.6353

On Oct 6, 2022, at 3:43 PM, LL <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

Thanks Andrew! I assume that the solution with not too ripe fruit can yield a nice, fresh juice but that with cider, ripe fruit is preferred. Is there less pectin in cider apple varieties than in eating apples, or what causes the differences?

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/a445c2a6-a2ea-4d48-997f-ba5137e8a12en%40googlegroups.com.

[LL]

This is very interesting Stephen!

They thin the apples by hand where I get apples for my cider experiments. But would you do thinning also to get better quality in terms of flavour, or is it rather something that gives fewer but larger fruits, without affecting the flavour much?

I totally agree about what you say about mouthfeel and acidity. I have two yeast strains from Lallemand that are capable of metabolizing some malic acid - Lalvin C and 71B, and I will try those. Do you have a yeast to suggest that will contribute to the mouthfeel? (This concept seems more difficult to pinpoint than the acidity.)

Best
Love

[David Lemieux]

Hey there,

Thinning also helps manage the biannual tendency on trees and reduce stress on fragile branches. It can encourage earlier ripening as well.

I usually to to go heavy in the thiol or ester development with dessert apples, but for pushing mouthfeel I usually go with Rhone 4600 with extended lees contact/battonage.

Best,

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/72f782ad-7e1e-4c13-b608-65185470daabn%40googlegroups.com.

[David Lemieux]

Also, if you can score Renaissance or Anchor yeasts, they have really nice options for handling nutrient deficient ferments with minimal H2S development.

[LL]

Cool! Thanks for the info about thinning. And about the yeast. Regarding thiol and esters, would this be something you try to achieve by your choice of yeast? Or by other means? I will check out Rhone 4600.

[David Lemieux]

I'd heavily weight the importance of temperature in the fermentation management, followed by apple cultivar, yeast, nutrition and turbidity, but everything has a part to play.

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/ea2a5610-52cd-407b-a82c-3743e552efb7n%40googlegroups.com.

[Stephen Buffington]

Yeah Love, I do. 58W3 is my go to for mouthfeel and it also seems to lower acidity. It’s so effective that I use it sparingly on a hot year (lower acid) and if I want a brighter base for Method Champenoise. For that I use QA23, a very nice yeast for aromatics and freshness. I have tried 71B a few times but didn’t care for thinness and fruit salad character. I never use Champagne yeast because it doesn’t give you mouthfeel, aromatics or lower acidity. Wild ferments can also give you good mouthfeel, or not, depending on your luck. 

Having your ciders go through Malolactic helps with acidity too. Having this option and a few yeasts in your toolbox allow you to create different styles with dessert fruit  I usually will do 50% 58W3 / 25% QA23 / 25% BA11 (or some new variety I’m trying) or wild with Malo for a force carbonated cider. I would likely do 50- 75% QA23 and with more sharp apples and try to limit Malo, for a Method Champenoise cider. 

Hope this helps. I would recommend doing yeast trials every year to increase your knowledge. Rotating a few news ones is not that hard and you might need to give them a few seasons to see how they work with your fruit and tastes. Good luck,

Stephen Buffington

Shawnee Hill Farm

206.941.6353

On Oct 6, 2022, at 5:12 PM, LL <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

This is very interesting Stephen!

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/72f782ad-7e1e-4c13-b608-65185470daabn%40googlegroups.com.

[LL]

Thanks for sharing, Stephen. We fermented with a few different Lallemand yeasts last season, but we have not yet evaluated the results. The strains were mostly selected for being cold tolerant, since it gets cold in the winter where we do the cider. So we used DV10, Cross Evolution, R2, S6U, QA23, 71B (which is not too happy in low temperatures) and Flavia (which is a Metschnikowia yeast, used in the beginning of a fermentation). I suspect that control of the acidity is in a way the primary factor to work with, so we will focus more on that this year, including attempts with malolactic fermentation.

How do you control your malolactic fermentation? Sterile filtering plus adding sulfites if you want to stop the process?

[Stephen Buffington]

Stopping malo is definitely a challenge. I don't sterile filter but am considering getting a setup for it since I also make wine and would like that flexibility. Without it you can do pretty well with keeping SO2 levels med-high and temperatures low. I am not always successful on inhibiting it, which is why I like to start off with more acid and use a bright yeast like QA23. I usually don't make final blends until the end of spring so I can find the batches that match the profile I'm looking for  

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/cb0aba0e-d7b0-46bf-81b1-425baf0d903en%40googlegroups.com.

[Wes Cherry]

I have found these low h2s yeasts from both anchor and rennaissanxe  yield a relatively characterless cider.

Much better to feed your yeast with goferm and Fermaid O.  Happy yeasts make better cider with more aromatics and mouthfeel.   Ferment at low temps to keep the fermentation speed under control.  Fermaid O takes a long time to be avaialble to yeast so you don’t get wild population booms and crashes like you do with Fermaid K or DAP.  It’s like healthy whole real food vs junk food.

Imo wild malo is just asking for trouble so I suppress it.     Have found some that battonage will mellow acidic ciders.   We have pasteurization so a light dose of sugar to balance is preferable to a flabby dry off flavor malo cider.

I agree with Stephen’s choices of yeasts also posted in this thread.  

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Oct 6, 2022, at 5:41 PM, David Lemieux <djmle...@gmail.com> wrote:



To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/CAHjVFyjybrDH_V365-M-cT6uSkds41_4pqeifBcEkcmMh1Qesg%40mail.gmail.com.

[LL]

I like the look of your ciders, Wes. It's a pitty I can't taste them. The colors are nice. I assume you add sulfites quite early at pressing?

[LL]

Is it just the acidity reduction you are after with your malolactic fermentation, or something else as well?

[Wes Cherry]

Thanks.  

Yes we sulfite and use pectic/hemicellulose enzymes at press.   As long as the apples are clean we sulfite as low as 25% of recommended dosage and do most ferments as wild ferments.    Almost universally wild ferments have more character than pitched yeasts.   With a partial sulfite dose it seems to kill the bacteria which can cause off flavor yet allow the apiculate yeasts to flourish before sacch takes over.

Wild ferments tend to have less eatery aromatics so for apples we want to hilight we use 58w3 or qa23.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

On Oct 7, 2022, at 5:51 PM, LL <love....@gmail.com> wrote:

I like the look of your ciders, Wes. It's a pitty I can't taste them. The colors are nice. I assume you add sulfites quite early at pressing?

To view this discussion on the web, visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/cider-workshop/24d90bf4-ef5a-4974-b608-ec96b355a6a6n%40googlegroups.com.

[LL]

Cool. So in numbers, does that mean something like 10-20 ppm of sulfites? And do you have a preferred temperature range for wild fermentation? 

In our few attempts at wild fermentation, we have often had noticeable ethyl acetate in the cider. From my understanding, this is often produced by wild yeasts. But I don't know if certain conditions can reduce its production. 

[AW]

ALL apples (for cidermaking purposes) are divided into the four categories you mentioned.  Many dessert apples are "sharps", and are referred to as such quite commonly.  Dessert apples are commonly used for cider and might make up 20-40% of the blend even in the more traditional categories here in the US.  

The category "dessert apple" is fuzzy around the edges but includes any apple that is particularly pleasant for fresh eating.  Aspects like skin thickness, flesh texture, fruit size and appearance may factor into this categorization.  It also can include some sweets (Red Delicious perhaps depending on the climate) and even mild bittersweets or mild bittersharps (Golden Russet depending on the climate).