Possible Setup for Cleaning IBC Totes

[winters...@gmail.com]

I have been planning to use IBC totes for fermentation and some limited storage.  With respect to cleaning and sanitizing the IBC totes I am contemplating the following set up and wanted the benefit of comments from those of you on this site with more experieince.  Many thanks in advance for your comments.

 

The individual IBC tote would be elevated off the ground on blocks sufficient to allow drainage from the lower valve port into a 5 gallon bucket.  Inside this bucket would be a 1/2 horse submersible pump (sump pump) and the cleaning/sanitizing solution (PBW/StarSan).  Attached to the pump is a garden hose which runs out of the bucket to the top of the IBC where it is threaded through a short length of PVC pipe (20 inches), through the top lid to the IBC, and then affixed to a 360 degree CIP spray nozzel.  This end of the hose would suspend inside the IBC with the pvc giving it some rigidity passing through a hole in the 6" top lid.  I presume I will have to hold onto the external portion of the pvc pipe while its in operation or the spray prressure would push it around.  When engaged the system would then recycle the cleaning solution under the power of the pump and spray down the inside of the IBC via the CIP nozzel.

 

Hopefully, I can add enough solution to keep the pump primed and running without going much over 5 gallons.  I can rinse with the set up after cleaning and then sanitize the same way.  I am concerned that the chemcials might damage the pump eventually.  I appreciate your thoughts or comments on anything I am missing or any pitfalls.

[Andrew Lea]

On 25/09/2014 21:25, winters...@gmail.com wrote:

> I am concerned that the
> chemcials might damage the pump eventually.

I think we established that Star San is a solution of phosphoric acid.
Unless your pump is made of 316 stainless steel or is all synthetic
polymer, I suspect it will have poor resistance to phosphoric acid.
Maybe worth checking your pump's chemical resistance directly with the
manufacturer?

Andrew

--
near Oxford, UK
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

[Matt Toomey]

I made this and it works pretty well but doesn't replace a good scrubbing everywhere.

 I got the spray ball from brewershardware.com, the cam and groove barb from Banjo Valves and the other miscellaneous parts from the hardware store. It was a fun puzzle. The pump is stainless 1hp I got new on ebay for $80. It looks exactly like a larger Jet-05 but with a switch. I haven't verified that everything including the spindle are stainless, but it seems like a great deal. I also use PBW and StarSan, though the star san is really really -- disconcertingly -- foamy this way. I'm looking for an alternative and would appreciate recommendations.

I use about 20-25 gallons of water for this. Five may not do it. the pump and the 1" tubing alone hold about a gallon. Tilted or sitting flat, I think you want the valve fully immersed to keep the pump primed and pushing hard enough to spin the ball with force.

So far so good on this knock wood. Give it a try and share your thoughts

[winters...@gmail.com]

Thanks for posting, Matt.  Your set up looks extremely similar to what i came up with for the sprayer end affixed to the lid, but I am also recycling the fluid coming out of the tote's valve via a 5 gal bucket and using a 1/2 sump pump in the bucket to send it back through the sprayer.  It worked to the extent it would spray the liquid around inside the tote, but it did not have enough pressure to really do a good cleaning...I need a bigger pump, I guess.  My set up was able to run continuously on just 5 gal.s and might work for just sanitizing, as it will wet everything inside, but I think I will have to go to the power washer with a 90 degree wand for the cleaning...or try a larger pump (and then maybe more liquid). 

 

I understand "Saniclean" is similar to Star San but Saniclean is supposed to be nonfoaming.  I will report back after I try it.

 

 

[Wes Cherry]

Saniclean is *less* foamy than StarSan.   Still somewhat foamy though.   Contact time with surfaces should be longer with Saniclean.

Peroxyacetic Acid/Peracetic Acid, or PAA is my favorite sanitizer.   It forms a mixture of acetic acid and hydrogen peroxide.   No foaming.   One caveat is the peroxide will oxidize cider, so though you can treat it as no-rinse, you should have vessels and hoses well drained before introducing cider.   The acetic acid will degrade over time (day or so), so make up fresh sanitizer solution every time.     Saniclean/Starsan on the other hand are more stable - up to a week, maybe longer.

-Wes

On Oct 23, 2014, at 8:14 AM, winters...@gmail.com wrote:

Thanks for posting, Matt.  Your set up looks extremely similar to what i came up with for the sprayer end affixed to the lid, but I am also recycling the fluid coming out of the tote's valve via a 5 gal bucket and using a 1/2 sump pump in the bucket to send it back through the sprayer.  It worked to the extent it would spray the liquid around inside the tote, but it did not have enough pressure to really do a good cleaning...I need a bigger pump, I guess.  My set up was able to run continuously on just 5 gal.s and might work for just sanitizing, as it will wet everything inside, but I think I will have to go to the power washer with a 90 degree wand for the cleaning...or try a larger pump (and then maybe more liquid). 

 

I understand "Saniclean" is similar to Star San but Saniclean is supposed to be nonfoaming.  I will report back after I try it.

 

 

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[Matt Toomey]

Thanks Wes! I've been in touch with Enviro Tech about their Perasan A; I may give that a try.

Many thanks.

[Dick Dunn]

On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 09:34:59AM -0700, Wes Cherry wrote:
> Saniclean is *less* foamy than StarSan. Still somewhat foamy though. Contact time with surfaces should be longer with Saniclean.

What he said. Saniclean is a solution of phosphoric acid. StarSan adds a
surfactant to try to ensure that it wets surfaces well. But StarSan is not
intended for situations where you're really agitating the sanitizer...like
a spray-ball. And yes, w/o the surfactant you need longer contact time.

Wes added...
>...Saniclean/Starsan on the other hand are more stable - up to a week, maybe longer.

I find that StarSan will remain usable for a couple months in a spray
bottle. I like it, although I haven't tried the peroxyacetic acid that Wes
likes better.

--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Wes Cherry]

You can use cider range ph strips to test starsan/saniclean solutions. Anything < ph 3.0 is still good. Even though the strips lower range is 3.0, the test pad turns an even lighter yellow/green below ph 3.0.

There are special strips for testing paa solutions. I don't bother and just make up new paa solution each day.

Sent from my iPad

[Alex]

I'm needing to clean some IBCs tomorrow for first use. Unfortunately the sprayball system I ordered hasn't arrived, nor has my pump for that matter either. 

I'm planning to pour two or three litres of 180ppm peracetic acid solution in the tank, close the lid and tap and do my best, with a friend, to ensure it makes good contact with all surfaces. This would be for the purpose of rinse-free santisation. Since calling my chemical supplier a nincompoop would be putting things extremely mildly, they have been unable to provide any advice at all. I've been Googling for the last hour or so, but can't seem to find the information to answer my specific questions: 

The IBCs are supposedly food-grade plastic composite, I am assuming that peracetic acid in a solution diluted to this extent should not be harmful to the IBC. The supplier has no idea and the manufacturer in China has not responded to my emails.

What about using it in a sprayer to sanitise other items?

How long should I leave the IBC after emptying out the solution before any juice or cider can go into it?

[Wes Cherry]

We use 5 gal and just rotate the ibc so each side gets a 2 minute contact.  Make sure you work the valve when draining as there are pockets in the ball valves where old cider can lurk.  I think the butterfly style valves have less problem with this.   We don't use the valves and rack from the top.

PAA won't hurt the plastic.   

Just empty the ibc of PAA and fill.  any slight wet residue won't be a problem.

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com

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[Vince Wakefield]

This may be obvious but take the ibc out of the cage for the cleaning, then it is easy to rotate and move around with one person.

 

Vince

[Alex]

Thanks Wes and Vince,

I needed a bit of reassurance I was doing the right thing having been scared by all the safety advice on the use of peracetic acid!

[Wes Cherry]

Dilute, PAA is quite safe.  No worry about chemical burns from skin contact.   Keep it out of your eyes and mouth though!   I accidentally got a slug when starting a siphon.   One of the more unpleasant experiences I have had...

-'//es Cherry

Dragon's Head Cider

Vashon Island, Wa US

www.dragonsheadcider.com