ebulliometer thermometer

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David Llewellyn

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May 20, 2013, 5:10:36 PM5/20/13
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My question is a long shot, but does anyone have experience of the mercury thermometer in an ebulliometer having an apparently broken column of mercury? Mine is acting up for the last while. When in use, the column always reads up to ‘maximum’ (less than zero percent alcohol), even when wine is being tested, where it should read in the 12 or 13% region. I can’t actually see a break in the mercury column, but the view of the column is partly obstructed by metal, so maybe there is a break which is not visible because of this. Any ideas? Andrew? Anyone?

 

Thanks,

 

David Llewellyn

Tel: + 353 87 2843879

www.llewellynsorchard.ie

(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

 

Andrew Lea

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May 21, 2013, 1:21:55 PM5/21/13
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On 20/05/2013 22:10, David Llewellyn wrote:
> My question is a long shot, but does anyone have experience of the
> mercury thermometer in an ebulliometer having an apparently broken
> column of mercury? Mine is acting up for the last while. When in use,
> the column always reads up to �maximum� (less than zero percent
> alcohol), even when wine is being tested, where it should read in the 12
> or 13% region. I can�t actually see a break in the mercury column, but
> the view of the column is partly obstructed by metal, so maybe there is
> a break which is not visible because of this. Any ideas? Andrew? Anyone?


No experience in this particular context I'm afraid. Can you detach the
thermometer from its housing? Sometimes you can shake the column down or
put it in a fridge or freezer to get the detached bit to coalesce with
the bulk, though in my experience this often isn't a permanent solution.
Is it a current production model of ebulliometer so could you get a
replacement thermometer?

Andrew


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Claude Jolicoeur

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May 21, 2013, 2:07:51 PM5/21/13
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"David Llewellyn" wrote:
> My question is a long shot, but does anyone have experience of the mercury
> thermometer in an ebulliometer having an apparently broken column of
> mercury? Mine is acting up for the last while. When in use, the column
> always reads up to 'maximum' (less than zero percent alcohol), even when
> wine is being tested, where it should read in the 12 or 13% region. I can't
> actually see a break in the mercury column, but the view of the column is
> partly obstructed by metal, so maybe there is a break which is not visible
> because of this. Any ideas? Andrew? Anyone?

I have succeeded by putting a thermometer in the freezer to rejoin
split parts of the mercury column - as Andrew suggests.

Once you have done this successflly, the rule is to always store the
thermometer in a vertical position.

Maybe there is some other problem with it... Is it a Dujardin-Salleron
ebulliometer that you have? In that case, replacement thermometers are
available for a cost of about 100$ (here in Canada). If you have
another type, then I don't know....

Claude

David Llewellyn

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May 21, 2013, 2:17:03 PM5/21/13
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Thanks Claude, thanks Andrew.

I will try the suggestions. It is nearly a hundred years old, made in
Austria, so replacement thermometer unlikely! It is calibrated along the
%alcohol scale, so I wouldn't want to disturb that, and seems to be locked
within its housing anyway. It is one of those with a right-angle bend, not a
straight one.

David
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Claude Jolicoeur

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May 21, 2013, 2:41:46 PM5/21/13
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"David Llewellyn" wrote:
> Thanks Claude, thanks Andrew.
>
> I will try the suggestions. It is nearly a hundred years old, made in
> Austria, so replacement thermometer unlikely! It is calibrated along the
> %alcohol scale, so I wouldn't want to disturb that, and seems to be locked
> within its housing anyway. It is one of those with a right-angle bend, not a
> straight one.

With the right angle bend, this is probably a Malligan or Levesque
type. See:
http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/vintage-20-30-malligand-ebullioscope-102227021

I have seen (but I don't remember where - sorry) that copies of these
are still made - I think it was on an Italian site of oenology
supplies. So possibly those bent thermometers might still be
available...

Claude

David Llewellyn

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Jun 4, 2013, 3:11:33 PM6/4/13
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Hello Claude, I have just broken my ebulliometer thermometer while trying to
fix the air bubble in the mercury. So if you have any idea where you think
you might have seen a source for this type of thermometer (and yes, it is a
Malligand type ebulliometer), please let me know. I will be a bit lost
without it, as I use it constantly in the process of my vinegar making.

Thanks,
David

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

David Llewellyn

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Jun 4, 2013, 4:45:47 PM6/4/13
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Hi Claude/Andrew, I've just had a thought about the ebulliometer: If I was
able to rig up a digital thermometer with a suitable probe, and incorporate
it into the ebulliometer where the mercury thermometer was, I could then get
good results by reading the temperatures off a chart with a scale of boiling
points of various ABV solutions. This should work, no??


David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 21 May 2013 19:42
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: ebulliometer thermometer

Andrew Lea

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Jun 4, 2013, 6:01:43 PM6/4/13
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I think that should work. Modern ebulliometers seem to use digital thermometers anyway. Can't see that the means of measurement makes any difference to the final result.

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 4, 2013, 6:15:49 PM6/4/13
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David Llewellyn wrote:
> Hello Claude, I have just broken my ebulliometer thermometer while trying to
> fix the air bubble in the mercury. So if you have any idea where you think
> you might have seen a source for this type of thermometer (and yes, it is a
> Malligand type ebulliometer), please let me know.

I agree with Andrew that you could manage with a good precision
digital thermometer.

See also:
http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/215999123/Malligand_ebulliometers.html
http://www.exactaoptech.it/portale/div-enologia/2-non-categorizzato/38-ebulliometri

These seem to be new Malligand-type ebullioscopes, so by contacting
them you might be able to get the right thermometer. Can you write
Italian? Maybe they can read English...

By the way, how do you use it for vinegar? Can it tell you if all the
alcohol has been transformed into acetic acid?

Claude

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 4, 2013, 6:25:01 PM6/4/13
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Here is another one:
http://www.holzeis.com/beverage-accessory-measuring-devices-measuring-alcohol-ebullioskop-according-malligand-chromium-plate-p-443.html

http://www.exactaoptech.it/portale/phocadownloadpap/catalogue%20malligand%20ebulliometer.pdf

Another possibility is to look for "Malligand ebuilloscope" on eBay -
there are quite a few and you may be able to find one for the price of
a new thermometer. For example, this one for 70€ is incomplete, but
the thermometer might be functional...
http://en.todocoleccion.net/perfectionne-ebulliometer-ebullioscope-wines-enology-e-malligand-fils-instrument~x27786287

Claude

On 4 juin, 18:15, Claude Jolicoeur <cjolip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Llewellyn wrote:
> > Hello Claude, I have just broken my ebulliometer thermometer while trying to
> > fix the air bubble in the mercury. So if you have any idea where you think
> > you might have seen a source for this type of thermometer (and yes, it is a
> > Malligand type ebulliometer), please let me know.
>
> I agree with Andrew that you could manage with a good precision
> digital thermometer.
>
> See also:http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/215999123/Malligand_ebulliometers...http://www.exactaoptech.it/portale/div-enologia/2-non-categorizzato/3...

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 4, 2013, 6:25:02 PM6/4/13
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Here is another one:
http://www.holzeis.com/beverage-accessory-measuring-devices-measuring-alcohol-ebullioskop-according-malligand-chromium-plate-p-443.html

http://www.exactaoptech.it/portale/phocadownloadpap/catalogue%20malligand%20ebulliometer.pdf

Another possibility is to look for "Malligand ebuilloscope" on eBay -
there are quite a few and you may be able to find one for the price of
a new thermometer. For example, this one for 70€ is incomplete, but
the thermometer might be functional...
http://en.todocoleccion.net/perfectionne-ebulliometer-ebullioscope-wines-enology-e-malligand-fils-instrument~x27786287

Claude

On 4 juin, 18:15, Claude Jolicoeur <cjolip...@gmail.com> wrote:
> David Llewellyn wrote:
> > Hello Claude, I have just broken my ebulliometer thermometer while trying to
> > fix the air bubble in the mercury. So if you have any idea where you think
> > you might have seen a source for this type of thermometer (and yes, it is a
> > Malligand type ebulliometer), please let me know.
>
> I agree with Andrew that you could manage with a good precision
> digital thermometer.
>
> See also:http://www.alibaba.com/product-free/215999123/Malligand_ebulliometers...http://www.exactaoptech.it/portale/div-enologia/2-non-categorizzato/3...

David Llewellyn

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Jun 4, 2013, 6:35:24 PM6/4/13
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Thanks Andrew And Claude. I will try with the digital thermometer.

I use the ebulliometer to measure the alcohol in each starting batch of
cider, so that I have an idea of the expected acetic acid level when
converted to vinegar, so that I know when the process is complete. I also
use it to test unfinished vinegar if I think there might still be alcohol in
there over and above a tolerance of around 0.2%. The ebulliometer is
indispensable really, given the unpredictable and cantankerous nature of the
vinegar bacteria!

David

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 04 June 2013 23:16
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: ebulliometer thermometer

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 4, 2013, 8:59:19 PM6/4/13
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David Llewellyn wrote:
> I also
> use it to test unfinished vinegar if I think there might still be alcohol in
> there over and above a tolerance of around 0.2%. The ebulliometer is
> indispensable really, given the unpredictable and cantankerous nature of the
> vinegar bacteria!

So, when the transformation to vinegar is complete, does the
ebulliometer indicate 0% ABV? This would mean that the acetic acid has
no influence on the boiling temperature. Or is it something else?
Claude

David Llewellyn

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Jun 5, 2013, 4:00:53 AM6/5/13
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Interesting question Claude! I didn't know the answer to this, but I've just
checked now, and I've read that the boiling point of a normal 5% acetic acid
cider vinegar would be about 100.5 C. So for all intents and purposes, I
suppose the ebulliometer would more or less tell you when the vinegar
conversion is complete.

At completion strength of around 5% acetic acid, I presume the effect of the
acetic acid on slightly raising the boiling point of water could cancel out
the effect that traces of alcohol would have in lowering the boiling point.
For example, the boiling point of 0.5% ABV solution is 99.5 C, so I presume
that if you had a cider vinegar sample of about 5% acetic acid, and if the
ebulliometer told you there was 0% ABV, then I guess it could in fact still
contain 0.5% ABV or thereabouts. I'm not exactly sure how precise one has to
be with this process, or what the legal maximum residual alcohol is, but it
appears to me to be close enough for practical purposes.

David

David Llewellyn

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Jun 6, 2013, 10:34:02 AM6/6/13
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Claude, Andrew,
So, I have McGyvered a digital thermometer into my ebulliometer, and done
some measurements.
https://twitter.com/DavidsOrchard/status/342648075594125313/photo/1
To my joy and excitement, it seems to work! Once I know the boiling point of
the sample, I read it off the wheel-chart to determine the ABV. So far so
good. I felt really sick when I broke the thermometer on that antique
ebulliometer, but now it seems I have a very useful functioning instrument
again! I searched online for replacement thermometers, but no concrete joy,
and this is possibly even a better solution. Thanks for your help and
suggestions.

David

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 05 June 2013 01:59
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: ebulliometer thermometer

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 6, 2013, 12:52:57 PM6/6/13
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David Llewellyn wrote:
> Claude, Andrew,
> So, I have McGyvered a digital thermometer into my ebulliometer, and done
> some measurements.https://twitter.com/DavidsOrchard/status/342648075594125313/photo/1
> To my joy and excitement, it seems to work! Once I know the boiling point of
> the sample, I read it off the wheel-chart to determine the ABV. So far so
> good. I felt really sick when I broke the thermometer on that antique
> ebulliometer, but now it seems I have a very useful functioning instrument
> again! I searched online for replacement thermometers, but no concrete joy,
> and this is possibly even a better solution. Thanks for your help and
> suggestions.

Looks good - this is the same type of thermometer I use for maple
syrup boiling. However I am not sure they are as accurate as their
digit after the decimal point may let us think. In other words, even
if it indicates 100.4, it doesn't mean this is the actual temperature
- the actual uncertainty is probably of the order of +/- 1 degree C.
However, since the ebuillometer measurement is actually obtained from
the substraction of 2 values of temperature (pure water, and cider
being tested) - this difference should be stripped from any bias given
by the instrument (hopefully!!!)
Good luck with it!
Claude

David Llewellyn

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Jun 6, 2013, 2:46:27 PM6/6/13
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Snap! I really do like this thermometer, for many applications. It also
seems to be pretty accurate, though the manufacturer declares accuracy of
+/- 1 degree C. As you see from the picture, it read 100.0 C with the water
sample boiling in the ebulliometer. (It actually fluctuated between 99.9 and
100.1). Like you say, any discrepency in the accuracy should be more or less
cancelled out as you slide along the scale to offset any deviation from
100.0 C for the water test sample.

BUT! Please tell me this, if you know, as it's something I have long
wondered about. Is any inaccuracy with a digital thermometer a 'constant'
inaccuracy, which you can calibrate for, and therefore correct for when
taking readings? Or is it a 'variable' inaccuracy e.g. you measure boiling
water one day and get 100.5 C, and another day and you get 99.4 C (assuming
constant atmospheric pressure)?

As you see in the picture, I had to bend the probe in order to get it down
into the boiling chamber without being obstructed by the condenser.


David Llewellyn wrote:
> Claude, Andrew,
> So, I have McGyvered a digital thermometer into my ebulliometer, and done
> some measurements.

https://twitter.com/DavidsOrchard/status/342648075594125313/photo/1

> To my joy and excitement, it seems to work! Once I know the boiling point
of
> the sample, I read it off the wheel-chart to determine the ABV. So far so
> good. I felt really sick when I broke the thermometer on that antique
> ebulliometer, but now it seems I have a very useful functioning instrument
> again! I searched online for replacement thermometers, but no concrete
joy,
> and this is possibly even a better solution. Thanks for your help and
> suggestions.

Claude wrote:
Looks good - this is the same type of thermometer I use for maple
syrup boiling. However I am not sure they are as accurate as their
digit after the decimal point may let us think. In other words, even
if it indicates 100.4, it doesn't mean this is the actual temperature
- the actual uncertainty is probably of the order of +/- 1 degree C.
However, since the ebuillometer measurement is actually obtained from
the substraction of 2 values of temperature (pure water, and cider
being tested) - this difference should be stripped from any bias given
by the instrument (hopefully!!!)
Good luck with it!
Claude

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 6, 2013, 5:31:35 PM6/6/13
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David Llewellyn wrote:
> BUT! Please tell me this, if you know, as it's something I have long
> wondered about. Is any inaccuracy with a digital thermometer a 'constant'
> inaccuracy, which you can calibrate for, and therefore correct for when
> taking readings? Or is it a 'variable' inaccuracy e.g. you measure boiling
> water one day and get 100.5 C, and another day and you get 99.4 C (assuming
> constant atmospheric pressure)?

In all instrumental measurements, the total uncertainty has many parts
in it:
- a constant bias from the instrument - this is the part that would be
cancelled when taking a difference of measurements as is the case
here.
- a linearity error - a bias such as described above may have a
constant value at a certain point of the scale, and a totally
different value at another point of the scale. Important linearity
errors are often seen in hydrometers for example. The better part of
this would also be compensated for in a differential measurement
because the 2 temperatures are quite close. It could become important
if you took the difference in temperature between boiling and freeing
temperatures for example.
- a random error, which comes from the intrinsic resolution of the
sensor and related electronics, and on how this may be affected by
external conditions - this part is unpredictable...
These are what is called the instrumental error. To this you should
add another element:
- the manipulation error, which is caused by the person who may use
the instrument in an inappropriate way. For example in this case, the
sensor could be inserted too low or too high in the ebuillometer, or
there could be a leak of steam, or some other factor caused by the
user could lead to an additional error.

The problem with low cost instruments is that it is pretty difficult
to evaluate these different elements. Only when you buy
instrumentation for laboratory and high precision applications will
you get this sort of information - but you pay quite a bit for this!

So the question really is - what is the random error of such a
thermometer? You might get a feeling for this as you use it, but you
may probably assume in first approximation that the quoted uncertainty
(+/- 1C) may be divided in 3 equal parts for the constant bias, the
linearity, and the random error, which would give you approximately
+/- 0.3C of possible random error. Does this make sense to you?

Claude

David Llewellyn

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Jun 6, 2013, 6:53:08 PM6/6/13
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Yes thank you Claude. It makes sense to me. I think that by confining any
error as much as possible to random error, by minimising manipulation error
etc etc, the instrument can be relied upon to give an accuracy significantly
better than the +/- 1 C. And, as you say, I feel that I will get a better
feeling for the limitations and capabilities of the instrument as I use it.
I'm very happy so far with the tests I did today on various samples ranging
from 1 to 14 %ABV, all of which I already had a good idea of the values I
should have expected to find. If/when I manage to make up some known
solutions of, for example, 5%, 10% and 15% ethanol ABV, I can calibrate it
and get a better idea of accuracy.

Incidentally, I saw some posts on a forum from some guy who made his own
home-made ebulliometer, but it did apparently involve access to some
sophisticated machining and welding equipment. Presumably though, one could
figure out a relatively simple way to rig up a device to measure the boiling
point of an alcohol sample (making sure to capture and return any
evaporating alcohol by means of some kind of condenser). If that were
accurately achieved, its just a matter of reading the temperature off an ABV
scale.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 06 June 2013 22:32
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: ebulliometer thermometer

Andrew Lea

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Jun 6, 2013, 7:14:17 PM6/6/13
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Correct me if I'm wrong (Claude?) but a single point measurement of BP for alcohol determination won't be very accurate? The BP will vary with atmospheric pressure, which not only changes with elevation above sea level but also on a day to day basis as anyone who owns a barometer will understand.

The whole point of an ebulliometer is that it measures the _difference_ in BP between the sample and a water reference within minutes of each other, so that such sources of error are virtually eliminated. Hence Dick at one mile above sea level will get the same result as David close to the coast. With a single point measurement they would get very different results.

Andrew

Sent from my iPhone

David Llewellyn

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Jun 6, 2013, 7:37:00 PM6/6/13
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Isn't that why you boil a sample of water each time you use the
ebulliometer, immediately before you do your alcohol samples? With my
vintage ebulliometer there is a slidable brass scale (just visible in the
photo earlier), with ABV ranging from zero to about 15% engraved along the
brass strip. Each time you set up the ebulliometer for testing samples, you
first boil a sample of water and slide the brass strip to set the 'zero ABV'
mark on the scale to the mercury reading on the glass thermometer. You then
fix it at that point for the duration of the subsequent alcohol samples. As
you said, this will vary depending on the prevailing atmospheric pressure.

In the case of the digital thermometer, when you boil the water sample, and
get a boiling point of, say 99.5 C, you would likewise 'slide' by 0.5 C
along your chart to correct for the error before reading off the ABV. As
Claude said, whether the 0.5 C is a discrepancy due to atmospheric pressure
or error in the accuracy of the thermometer, should be irrelevant, because
your are in any event adjusting the boiling point of water to 100.0 C by
sliding the scale, and this should eliminate the error.

UNLESS!! The reading which a digital thermometer gives does not vary with
atmospheric pressure in the way that mercury does! Now I hadn't thought of
that, and I don't know whether there may be an issue there! I just googled
about the range of boiling temperatures for water at 'normal' atmospheric
pressure, and I was surprised to see that between the pretty normal
atmospheric pressure values of 970 millibars and 1030 millibars, there is a
full 2 degrees C difference in the boiling point of water! Now that would
give a very significant potential error in an ABV reading unless it was
corrected for.

Claude Jolicoeur

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Jun 7, 2013, 12:36:26 AM6/7/13
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Andrew Lea wrote:
> Correct me if I'm wrong (Claude?) but a single point measurement of BP for alcohol determination won't be very accurate? The BP will vary with atmospheric pressure, which not only changes with elevation above sea level but also on a day to day basis as anyone who owns a barometer will understand.
>
> The whole point of an ebulliometer is that it measures the _difference_ in BP between the sample and a water reference within minutes of each other, so that such sources of error are virtually eliminated. Hence Dick at one mile above sea level will get the same result as David close to the coast. With a single point measurement they would get very different results.
>

Yes, Andrew you are perfectly correct.
Now as I look at my Dujardin-Salleron ebuillometer:
The thermometer has a range from 85.5 to 101.6 C, with graduations at
0.1 C

Some Dujardin-Salleron come with a disk, but mine comes with a slide
rule, quite similar to the slide rules we used in the old days for
doing calculations before hand calculators were everywhere - older
ones like Andrew will remember those... The central part slides and is
adjusted in function of the BP measured with water - e.g. if this is
100.5, I slide the Zero ABV mark to 100.5 C. Then the BP of the cider
is taken. If I get for example 96 C, the slide rule indicates 5.2%
ABV.

To evaluate the uncertainty of the ABV measurement with this
ebuillometer, I may assume the temperature measurements taken may be
each +/- 0.1 C, which makes +/- 0.2 C total (because I take 2
measurements). The uncertainty would then be +/- 0.3% ABV for cider
strength from the slide rule.

Note this slide rule is not linear, i.e. if the difference between
water and cider BP is:
2 C --- this gives 2.1% ABV
4 C ----------------- 4.5% ABV
6 C ----------------- 7.3% ABV
8 C ---------------- 10.6% ABV
10 C -------------- 14.7% ABV
Hence for most cider applications the difference in BP between water
and the cider would be between 4 and 6C.

Claude

Andrew Lea

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:18:10 AM6/7/13
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Sorry to everyone else but I'm further musing on ebulliometry. (Last one
I used was 40 years ago! - and not for alcohol determination)

Claude: Do you use your ebulliometer for your sweet ciders - those with
appreciable residual gravity? Do you make a correction for sugar
content? This will also affect the boiling point.

David: The change of boiling point with atmospheric pressure is a
fundamental physical property. Sealed mercury column thermometers are
not subject to atmospheric pressure changes. Open mercury columns are,
and they are in effect barometers. I don't believe any such
considerations apply to digital thermometers.

David Llewellyn

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:21:34 AM6/7/13
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Yes I think I might have confused what I meant about sliding the scale. I
don't have a physical scale myself, but I have a picture of one of the disc
scales.

So, If the thermometer reads 100.5 C for my test sample of water, then
whatever the temperature reads for my alcohol sample, I would subtract 0.5 C
and read the ABV from the scale. For example, if the thermometer reads 95.0
C for the alcohol sample, this would give an ABV of 6.0% *IF* the water had
boiled at 100.0 C. But it boiled at 100.5 C, so I have to subtract 0.5C from
that 95.0 C, to give 94.5 C, and that corresponds to 6.7% ABV on the scale
I'm using. So, as Claude says, if an accuracy of +/- 0.3% ABV can be
achieved, I don't think that's bad. A few years ago I bought myself a little
distillation kit to measure alcohol samples, and I was not very happy with
the kind of results I was getting - I didn't have the feeling there was very
good accuracy, and, it was a lot more trouble than using an ebulliometer.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')
-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Claude Jolicoeur
Sent: 07 June 2013 05:36
To: Cider Workshop
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: ebulliometer thermometer

Andrew Lea

unread,
Jun 7, 2013, 4:40:35 AM6/7/13
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
On 07/06/2013 09:21, David Llewellyn wrote:
>
> So, as Claude says, if an accuracy of +/- 0.3% ABV can be achieved, I
> don't think that's bad. A few years ago I bought myself a little
> distillation kit to measure alcohol samples, and I was not very happy
> with the kind of results I was getting - I didn't have the feeling
> there was very good accuracy, and, it was a lot more trouble than
> using an ebulliometer.

Alcohol measurement by distillation is surprisingly difficult to do
well, even in a proper chemical laboratory. There are many sources of
error and cryptic vapour loss, unless the kit is well designed and
correctly operated. Ebulliometry _seems_ inherently more complicated and
yet experience seems to show it is a more robust method in 'production'
situations. A bit of a paradox!

I love the look of this modern electronic ebulliometer with digital or
mercury probe options
http://www.dujardin-salleron.com/produits/pdf_en/FTEbulliometer_EN.pdf
Claims an accuracy of 0.1% ABV. Wonder how much they cost?!

richard marlborough

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:50:46 AM6/7/13
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
hi andrew

do you know how much they cost?

cheers

rich


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David Llewellyn

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:52:19 AM6/7/13
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
€1500 in Australia!
Looks nice alright.

David Llewellyn
Tel: + 353 87 2843879
www.llewellynsorchard.ie
(previously 'fruitandvine.com')



I love the look of this modern electronic ebulliometer with digital or
mercury probe options
http://www.dujardin-salleron.com/produits/pdf_en/FTEbulliometer_EN.pdf
Claims an accuracy of 0.1% ABV. Wonder how much they cost?!

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Portal
www.cider.org.uk

richard marlborough

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Jun 7, 2013, 4:55:26 AM6/7/13
to cider-w...@googlegroups.com
i thought you were going to say £60 !!!!!!!!!!!!! time to think again

lol
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