Golden Russet + assorted mix = good!

[Paul B.]

This year I made my first attempt making sparkling cider from Golden
Russets. I must say that I am very happy with the result. The juice,
when fermented still, tasted like a crisp dry white grape wine -- much
better than what I have achieved in the past from ordinary "eating
apples".

The overall blend was about 90% Golden Russet + 10% mixed roadside
wildings and crabapples. This last portion was added in later as
"reserve juice" for in-bottle fermentation and ultimate carbonation.
This method worked well, though I think that next time I will just
blend everything together at the beginning, ferment it, and bottle at
a pre-determined SG reading to carbonate in-bottle, thereby avoiding
the extra step of adding another dosage of yeast.

But all in all, I am very happy with the result. That bit of tannin
in the cider really creates a wonderful texture on the palate. Poured
chilled, it tastes like a good dry sparkling wine, though with less
apparent alcohol. No sugars of any kind were added to the must prior
to fermentation; only that which was in the juice at the start.

[Mott]

I am happy to hear that, Paul, as my start-up cider orchard is heavily
weighted to Golden Russets. May I ask what yeast you are using?

[Paul B.]

I used the very commonly available Lalvin EC-1118 champagne yeast,
which is actually one of my favourites because it always goes to
dryness, and is a strong fermenter.

[Andrew Lea]

Paul B. wrote:
> This year I made my first attempt making sparkling cider from Golden
> Russets. I must say that I am very happy with the result. The juice,
> when fermented still, tasted like a crisp dry white grape wine -- much
> better than what I have achieved in the past from ordinary "eating
> apples".

Paul,

I forget where in North America you are but about 25 years ago I paid a
visit to Meyer Brothers Cider Mills near Buffalo NY. At that time they
were making and selling hard cider (their website doesn't seem to
mention it any more) and they told me that they scoured the area for as
many Golden Russet as they could lay their hands on. It was the only
apple they would use for hard cider apparently, despite being surrounded
by acres of other mainstream juice and sauce varieties. But their supply
was desperately limited. Maybe that's why they gave up on it?

Glad to hear it works for you. Received wisdom has been that it is one
of the best North American cider varieties. Beach (Apples of New York
1905) quotes it as "excellent for cider" but whether hard or sweet is
not clear.

Andrew

[Dick Dunn]

On Sun, Nov 08, 2009 at 10:37:29AM +0000, Andrew Lea wrote:
...
> ...Received wisdom has been that it is one

> of the best North American cider varieties. Beach (Apples of New York
> 1905) quotes it as "excellent for cider" but whether hard or sweet is
> not clear.

Probably "hard" (fermented), since in the US the main campaign to muddle
the use of the word "cider" was a result of Prohibition, 1919-1933.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Paul B.]

Andrew, I'm in the GTA, southern Ontario (Lake Ontario region, near
the Niagara Peninsula wine growing region).

Yes, prohibition was a disaster for the once thriving North American
cider scene. I sometimes think about what our cider and wine cultures
would be like today had prohibition never happened. It was a very
peculiar thing, very rooted, it seems, in this continent. When you
stop and think about the landmass we have, it is sad that there hasn't
been more dynamism, more imagination, in getting a dynamic cider
culture and wine culture going here. Well, it is happening now with
all the microbreweries and the resurgence in winemaking, hybridization
of new grape varieties (New York and Minnesota, especially), but the
populace in general is still ignorant of cider as an artisanal food.

And yes, in North America when you say "cider", the first thing most
people think of is pressed apple juice with potassium sorbate as a
fermentation-arrester / preservative!!

[Andrew Lea]

Paul B. wrote:
> Andrew, I'm in the GTA, southern Ontario (Lake Ontario region, near
> the Niagara Peninsula wine growing region).

Ahh, so not too far from the people in Buffalo. Are there still many
Golden Russets where you are, or are they now very unusual?

> it is sad that there hasn't
> been more dynamism, more imagination, in getting a dynamic cider

> culture going here. Well, it is happening now

Indeed it is. You have just missed the annual Cider Days in Western Mass
http://www.ciderday.org/ which is well worth a visit by any North
American cidermaker (and even those of us from overseas). Perhaps when
Claude returns he can tell us how this year's event was.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[from Heather]

I've been guilty of interchanging the word cider for fresh squeezed juice. I think it is because the harvest festivals will advertise that they will be pressing fresh cider, at which point I have to stop and think, "This is fresh, so it isn't hard." And instead of stopping the cycle, I find myself repeating it even though I try not to.


> Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 07:44:48 -0800
> Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Golden Russet + assorted mix = good!
> From: pbu...@gmail.com
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[from Heather]

I recently read something that said if you plant chives under an apple tree, it will help repel apple scab. Has anyone tried this? Are there any other cures out there for apple or pear trees? It would be nice if something as simple as planting chives ready did save time, labor, and money of having to spray.

---

Hotmail: Trusted email with powerful SPAM protection. Sign up now.

[Stephen Hayes]

Greetings Heather

 

there are many things which would be 'nice'. However, beating apple scab by companion planting is without any evidence and sady unrealistic.

 

When we planted our first 250 trees in 1992 we went through a phase of hoping that a 'balance of nature' would establish itself, sadly reality kicked in and we had to start spraying pesticide like everyone else (including the 'organic' people) or lose the orchard. Its true that if you grow a few backyard fruit trees of reasonably hardy varieties, you can probably manage OK if you don't mind losing 40% of the crop most years, spots on the apples and finding the occasional half a maggot in an apple, but this won't do if you are trying to sell the fruit.

 

If trials were to show that companion planting  works, then it will be adopted widely, but I am afraid it stems from wishful thinking rather than tests.

 

I hate spraying, but I hate throwing away unsaleable fruit even more.

 

all the best

 

Stephen

[cider digest]

Andrew,

I have been watching this topic with much interest. Being a newcomer
to this most
interesting of endeavor's. You caught my eye with the comment of your
trip close to my home
in Upstate NY to the Mayer winery which I believe belongs to the cider
mill a bit down the
street.

http://lakeontariowinery.com/html/index.html

These folks have purchased the winery back about the time of your
visit. I dropped in to
inquire as to why they no longer offer hard cider at the winery. They
spoke of the lack luster
interest of the public for this most delightful drink! They have and
currently offer an Apple Wine
which I tested and found this to be very sweet but having a very nice
apple flavor. Their success
has been in the sweet cider and assorted offerings of fruit &
Vegetable's. They also have a supply
of brewing needs for the local do it yourself folks.

My curiosity of a road to follow towards planting trees for hard cider
has been a challenge to find
printed comments with respect to the best apples for this purpose. I
noted in the book on the subject
by Anne Proulx & Lew Nichols ( Cider ) that no one seems to want to
suggest the best varities or feel
that the best are no longer available? Most will suggest blends and
leave it at that. The Mayer's talked
to me about the Golden Russet's and in fact the supply had almost
dissappeared. They even went so far
as to offer to buy all that I could grow if interested.

I started to look for these and other trees that seem to be the
pinnacle of fruit for the purpose and while
searching for the Golden Russet trees I notice another type spoken
highly of for making hard cider as
well " Kingston Black's". I found a nursery that offers the Golden
Russet as well as many of the older
verities including the Kingston Black's! Here is the link.

http://www.treesofantiquity.com/index.php?main_page=index

All comments will be appreciated. I have a small yard in the suburbs
and a planting of 6-7 trees will be
the most I could consider.

Regards,
Carl

On Nov 8, 5:37 am, Andrew Lea <y...@cider.org.uk> wrote:
> Paul B. wrote:
> > This year I made my first attempt making sparkling cider fromGolden
> > Russets.  I must say that I am very happy with the result.  The juice,
> > when fermented still, tasted like a crisp dry white grape wine -- much
> > better than what I have achieved in the past from ordinary "eating
> > apples".
>
> Paul,
>
> I forget where in North America you are but about 25 years ago I paid a
> visit to Meyer Brothers Cider Mills near Buffalo NY. At that time they
> were making and selling hard cider (their website doesn't seem to
> mention it any more) and they told me that they scoured the area for as

> manyGoldenRussetas they could lay their hands on. It was the only

[Andrew Lea]

Carl wrote:
>
> You caught my eye with the comment of your
> trip close to my home
> in Upstate NY to the Mayer winery which I believe belongs to the cider
> mill a bit down the
> street.

That is very interesting. I had not realised a winery had been spun out
of the original business that I visited.

>
> My curiosity of a road to follow towards planting trees for hard cider
> has been a challenge to find
> printed comments with respect to the best apples for this purpose.

> The Mayer's talked to me about the Golden Russet's and in fact the supply had almost

> dissappeared. They even went so far
> as to offer to buy all that I could grow if interested.

That sounds much like their situation even 25 years ago!

>> that no one seems to want to
>> suggest the best varities or feel
>> that the best are no longer available? Most will suggest blends and
>> leave it at that.

Well here in the UK blends are the norm for cider and generally
considered better than cider from any single variety. So do not despair
on that account.

>
> I started to look for these and other trees that seem to be the
> pinnacle of fruit for the purpose and while
> searching for the Golden Russet trees I notice another type spoken
> highly of for making hard cider as
> well " Kingston Black's". I found a nursery that offers the Golden
> Russet as well as many of the older
> verities including the Kingston Black's! Here is the link.
>
> http://www.treesofantiquity.com/index.php?main_page=index

You must realise that Golden Russet is a variety raised or at least
growing well in your area of upstate NY. Kingston Black comes from the
damp gentle climate of Somerset UK where things are very different. It
is regarded as tricky to grow even here. There is no reason to think
that KB will do well with you though it does seem to do OK in the
Pacific Northwest (maybe Rich can comment) where the climate is as mild
as we have here.

In my view, in your area, you should forget out European varieties and
concentrate instead on your traditional cider varieties such as Golden
Russet, Hewes Crab, Harrison etc etc... or even new(ish) cultivars like
Cortland which Claude in Quebec uses to make most excellent cider.

I think it is a big mistake for North American cider makers to slavishly
follow the European model except where the climate and soils are
similar. You need to (re)develop a distinctive style of your own in the
NE as you had before Prohibition. Apples have huge genetic diversity
and it is best to choose cultivars appropriate to your own conditions.
Others may think differently of course.

That's my six penn'orth (two cents)!

[Denis et Jane]

I just returned from the Cider days in Mass. As usual, worth the 5+ hours
drive to get there, this year event was a bid success. A lot more people
showed up compare to last year, and you could taste the ciders of close to
30 cidermakers from across the USA, Canada, and even 2 from the UK...
Unfortunately, I missed Claude's presentation on blending apples for cider.

Denis

-----Original Message-----
From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
[mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Andrew Lea
Sent: 9 novembre 2009 11:20
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
Subject: [Cider Workshop] Re: Golden Russet + assorted mix = good!

[Claude Jolicoeur]

Andrew Lea wrote:

> In my view, in your area, you should forget out European varieties and
> concentrate instead on your traditional cider varieties such as Golden
> Russet, Hewes Crab, Harrison etc etc... or even new(ish) cultivars like
> Cortland which Claude in Quebec uses to make most excellent cider.
>
> I think it is a big mistake for North American cider makers to slavishly
> follow the European model except where the climate and soils are
> similar. You need to (re)develop a distinctive style of your own in the
> NE as you had before Prohibition.  Apples have huge genetic diversity
> and it is best to choose cultivars appropriate to your own conditions.
> Others may think differently of course.

I agree with Andrew on this, but not entirely... I do think we have to
develop the varieties that do well in our N.America terroirs, but some
of the European varieties can also do well here and may be used with
benefit. A few examples:
I grow Bulmer's Norman and have a very good opinion of it (actually a
better opinion than most of you in UK have, as it seems it is not
regarded highly). It ripens very well in my cold orchard, attains SGs
close to 1.060, is almost scab free, gets to a good size, ripens at
the right moment of the season and is quite productive most years. I
find it very useful in a blend with our higher acidity varieties like
Cortland or Liberty.
Steve Wood grows Kingston Black and many other English cider apples to
perfection in N.Hampshire (but he is a very skilled apple grower and
he did say KB was tricky). Same with Terry Maloney in Mass. And there
are many others I am sure.

For Carl:
If you consider ordering cider apple trees, have a look at Cummins
Nursery - they probably have the best selection of varieties and have
an excellent reputation among the apple growers in USA that I have
been in contact with. I never ordered from them since I am in Canada
however.
http://www.cumminsnursery.com/

I also agree that Golden Russet is one of the best American apples for
cider, but keep in mind the acidity level is high and it will benefit
from blending with a sweet or bittersweet apple that doesn't
necessarily have to be English - we have to discover or rediscover
native low acid apples that will blend with apples such as Golden
Russet and smoothen the acidity. An ecellent one for this purpose is
the recent Canadian release Britegold, if you can find it in USA.
Another one I discovered and named Douce de Charlevoix is currently
being tested by some apple growers/cider makers in different locations
and climates. It will still be a few years before we can assess its
real value - but it works well for me.

Claude Jolicoeur
Quebec

[Dries Muylaert]

Apples:

Chives won't work. But you can (for scab):
- keep the trees open
- maintain enough spacing between trees
- discard leaves in autumn, or let the worms take care of that (stable
manure as fertilizer keeps the worms stout). You can also spray the
leaves on the ground with vinasse solution to encourage the lads
- regularly mulch the grass under the trees
- spray with sulfer (biological product) or a sulfer-potassiumbicarb
mixture, will soon be on the market in Flanders, don't know about
England, according to Mills tabel.
- naughty, not biological, spray with cuprum (bordelaise pap) at the
very beginning of spring (first shove in the butts), don't like it but
for very scab sensitives it is the only solution. Also works for
cancer but the way to get rid of that is manual removal and keeping
good soil conditions (especially water table)
- do not overfeed the trees on nitrate, keep them on a well balanced
diet, regularly check the soil ph. Each 4 years you should have a good
soil analysis.

apple maggots, pheromone trap plus virocarpusine
caterpillars, glue strips and bacillus thuringiensis
blight, not yet had any trouble with it, lucky me

Except for the cuprum, all biological. It's a lot of work but it pays
of. Before planting you should also think about scab resistant or
tolerant varieties. Can save you a lot of work.

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[Stephen Hayes]

Gretings Dries

Agree with all of that except that suplhur isn't 'biological' its an
inorganic poison, albeit a necessary trace element also, like copper. Not a
criticism, only an observation. Until the mid 20th century according to my
books they were using heavy metal poisons like lead and arsenic!

Peak oil, climate change and other imperatives mean that more research is
urgently needed into reduced input agriculture, and maybe folks like us can
do our little bit by keeping careful notes and sharing our findings.

stephen

> --

[cider digest]

Many Thanks!!!

Paul, Andrew, Dick,Claude, & Dries..
Appreciate all your thoughts and comments.
I remember as a child being with the old timers and
seeing that keg of cider that they would visit many a times during
an evening. Seems like just yesterday, yet was the late 1950's?
They have all departed and the knowledge as well. I am sure I will
be making many a mistake along this journey. It is nice to have the
wealth of knowledge that this board brings to my table. Well off to do
a
sulfur stick on this chestnut barrel before I rack off my first batch.

Best Regards All,

Carl

[Dries Muylaert]

High there Steven,

Always at you service if I can help out by sharing experiences.

Sulphur, I'm afraid the natural outfall is bigger than what one sprays
against milldew and scab. I'm banking on this potassium bicarbonate
mixture. As old as Methusalem, now reinvented and working it's way
through European and belgian red tape. Seems to have a great kickback
effect for scab, could also replace cuprum. Tried to mix it myself but
pbc is only sold in expensive 50 kg bags. I'll be patient. In Germany
it's all ready on the market for wine farmers. Comes winter I'll do
some more scouting.

[Cornelius Traas]

> Agree with all of that except that suplhur isn't 'biological' its an
> inorganic poison, albeit a necessary trace element also, like copper.

You are correct Stephen, although I suspect that Dries's classification is
to do with the fact that copper is far more damaging to beneficials,
earthworms etc than sulphur or potassium bicarbonate.
The unfortunate truth is that none of these three are even close to as good
as the more modern "factory" chemicals, and they are also more phytotoxic.
The end result is far lower yield in organic orchards, through diseases
lowering tree productivity, and traditional chemicals like sulphur poisoning
the trees.
I think that the key points Dries made were about (for scab especially)
disease resistant cultivars, and reducing disease pressure by getting the
leaves to rot before the following spring (or removing them from the
orchard). Combined, these two can practically eliminate apple scab in all
but the most pressurised situations (as in weather really conducive to the
spread of scab). A further combination with a few well-timed applications of
either organic-approved or modern synthetic chemicals can go a long way to
reduce inputs, which, as Stephen implies, are completely unsustainable.
Con Traas

The Apple Farm,
Moorstown, Cahir, Co. Tipperary.
Tel: 052 744 1459
Email: c...@theapplefarm.com
Web: www.theapplefarm.com

[Paul B.]

They are not too commonly available, mainly because most orchards are
heavily geared towards the most popular eating apples. I had to seek
them out, and after numerous tries I found a couple of places that
have them. There is a very unfortunate habit of crop standardization
in our part of the world here. Diversity is not very valued, just
going by the sameness of the crops and the limited variety. Things
are better overall than they used to be, however. I recall people
saying how back in the 60's, you went to a grocery store adn there
would be two kinds of apples available: green and red. Good
grief ...

[Paul B.]

That is sad, but it doesn't surprise me. Until I became interested in
the art of (hard) cider, I had no exposure to it at all. You just
can't get the real English and French stuff at the government run
liquor stores here - they don't bother to import any of it.

It also ties in to North America being very much of a "soda pop"
culture. People either drink sugary drinks, or they drink
artificially sweetened drinks. They have been conditioned to want
"sweet". Cider (and good wine, good beer, etc.) take a bit more of a
disciplined palate to appreciate, IMHO.

[Dick Dunn]

I have to take issue with some of Andrew's points on cider varieties for
the US.

On Mon, Nov 09, 2009 at 10:37:32PM +0000, Andrew Lea wrote:
...

[Carl LeClair noted looking for cider varieties incl KB]

> You must realise that Golden Russet is a variety raised or at least
> growing well in your area of upstate NY. Kingston Black comes from the
> damp gentle climate of Somerset UK where things are very different. It
> is regarded as tricky to grow even here. There is no reason to think
> that KB will do well with you though it does seem to do OK in the
> Pacific Northwest (maybe Rich can comment) where the climate is as mild
> as we have here.

But there is no reason to think KB -won't- do well! Just because it is
tricky in a mild climate doesn't mean it will be more challenging in a
more severe climate. It may be that the mild climate allows factors
(eg diseases) that don't occur in the harsher climate. You've just got
to try, or learn from trials done by others, in your area.

Yes, KB does well in the Pacific Northwest--in addition to Rich, Alan
Foster (White Oak Cider, sadly no longer operating) did a fantastic KB.
Alan's just SW of Portland OR.

Claude mentioned Farnum Hill (NH) and Terry Maloney (MA) as producing
KB ciders.

My KB are doing reasonably well here (compared with other varieties
and adjusting for KB's cantankerousness) in the arid high-plains area
of northeastern Colorado. I think Shawn Carney is doing well with KB
on the other side of the Rockies (about 250 mi west of me). All of the
above cover a substantial range of climate/soil.

> In my view, in your area, you should forget out European varieties and
> concentrate instead on your traditional cider varieties such as Golden
> Russet, Hewes Crab, Harrison etc etc... or even new(ish) cultivars like
> Cortland which Claude in Quebec uses to make most excellent cider.

But wait! Why should we throw out centuries of European experience???
Anyway, the distinction of European vs North American isn't reasonable
because there is so much variation in climate and soil here. Hewes
Crab, for example, is originally a Virginia variety. Why would that
be a good match to upstate NY?

In seeking suitable cider varieties, overall we've got to look for two
things: suitable juice characteristics and suitability of tree to
environment (climate and soil). The European experience gives us a
lot of varieties which produce good juice; we just need to sift through
them and see what grows well for us. Your experience helps narrow our
search. Sure, we want to use American apples, but those similarly have
to be vetted for varying climates.

> I think it is a big mistake for North American cider makers to slavishly
> follow the European model except where the climate and soils are
> similar. You need to (re)develop a distinctive style of your own in the

> NE as you had before Prohibition...

Yeah, sorta.
I believe we need to develop our distinctive styles, with attention to
what was done pre-Prohibition but not necessarily following it. We have
more information and more choices.

The idea I see behind what Andrew is saying is not to attempt to mimic
say some particular British style...it just may not work out. I've
had to get that lesson pounded into my head. I would love to make a
Somerset-style cider (because that's one -we- like), and I started out
with that in mind, but it's just not likely to happen here. However,
I -can- make a good, full-bodied, balanced cider using tannic cider
varieties in the blend. So I'm working on what I can do to understand
the varieties of apple I've got and how they perform here...and then
working on blending something that's -good- instead of being driven
by style. On that, Andrew and I agree.

>...Apples have huge genetic diversity

> and it is best to choose cultivars appropriate to your own conditions.

How do you determine that?
Back to my original point: just because a variety seems marginal in
seemingly-friendly conditions, you can't say that it won't do well
(perhaps better!) in seemingly-adverse conditions.

[Melanie Wilson]

>reducing disease pressure by getting the
leaves to rot before the following spring (or removing them from the
orchard).

Having not really had to deal with much disease on my trees I was interested
to read this.

Does that mean that having no leaves around from the leaf fall from the
apple trees is beneficially ?

In which case the natural remedy I recommend for that is geese. I originally
got mine as natural lawn mowers, but they clear up all the leaves and
windfalls, which might not be a good think if you want the windfalls, but
you can exclude them for a period if that suits, I let them into the veg
patch at certain intervals if I need a clear up of debris or catapillers ,
the ducks are the better for that ,to the extent that for my veg garden leaf
mulch I have to beg leaves in.


Mel

This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
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otherwise disclose the contents of this e-mail or any of its attachments
without express consent

[Dries Muylaert]

>
> Does that mean that having no leaves around from the leaf fall from the
> apple trees is beneficially ?

If they are infected with scab, definitely yes.

>
> In which case the natural remedy I recommend for that is geese.

Depends on the circumstances. Mine do not eat leaves. Windfalls yes.
Gees are a good idea for keeping the grass short, because they spread
the nutrients from digested grass and make it available for the trees.
As do cows, though mixing cows and apples can be very dangerous
(suffocating) That gives a balance in the orchard. You should however
measure the ph of the soil each year and chalk when necessary.
It is today Saint Martin's day, not good news for the gees. Has to be
said they make an excellent roast, the fat is a delight and very
healthy and a goose egg makes a full meal in spring. A bunch of ten
will even keep most foxes on the run, if enough males are present.
Gees and orchards are a marriage made in heaven.

>
> Mel
>
> This e-mail, and any attachment, is confidential. If you have received
> it in error, please delete it from your system, do not use or disclose
> the information in any way, and notify me immediately. The contents of
> this message may contain personal views which are not the views of the
> Company, unless specifically stated. You should not copy, forward or
> otherwise disclose the contents of this e-mail or any of its attachments
> without express consent
>

[Stephen Hayes]

Thanks Con


My position is that I hate the fact that my apples are attacked by pests and
diseases, but hate it or not, that is the starting position. We can't have a
rational discussion about the rights and wrongs of different means of pest
and disease management until we come to terms with the biological reality. I
have put something up about pests and diseases on www.fruitwise.net

we find that people like the anti pesticide campaigner Georgina Downs do not
have a rational starting point, but accuse farmers of 'smothergint the world
with carcinogenic, hormone disrupting poisons to boost their obscene profits
(etc etc) and the trouble is, there is a great willingness to go with this
propaganda in the media, especially the BBC, and we get a number of people
at our market stalls asking if we use pesticides in a very accusatory
manner. we use a minimum of pesticide, if we did not, then we woudl have to
abandon the heritage apple project, since the very same people who moan
about pesticides also will go through a basket of apples by hand and reject
every apple with a spot of apple scab or any other blemish.

As a medical doctor, I see crop protection (i.e. pesticide application) a
analagous to vaccination. We'd all prefer not to have to bother, yes there
are concerns about unwanted side effects, but the alternative is diptheria,
polio, tetanus etc which used to kill 1 child in 5.

thie anti-pesticide hysteria , and EU over-regulation have led to much
higher costs. we need better understanding of the problems, not polarised
debate, and we need better research into means of low-input, low residue,
low cost pest management. I'm sure most of us would prefer to avoid
spraying, but if we have to do but would prefer to mionimise it, especially
for cider fruit where miobnor blemishes are unimportant.

I have more to say but must dash or i'll be late for work!

Stephen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cornelius Traas" <c...@theapplefarm.com>
To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>

[John C. Campbell III]

I have to agree with Dick completely ...  my true K.B.'s are doing well (comparatively) in the sticky humid mess that is the weather on the shores of Maryland's Chesapeake bay and it's addition to my blends would be sorely missed.  I know that my friend Rob  Miller in the Md. foothills suffers most from biennialism on his KB's whereas I do not. 
jccampb

"Cuimhnich air na daoine o'n d'thaining thu."
" Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.'"Sir Winston Churchill,

[Dries Muylaert]

... since the very same people who moan

> about pesticides also will go through a basket of apples by hand and reject
> every apple with a spot of apple scab or any other blemish.

Indeed, well said! And most of the time they are not even aware what a
good ripe apple should taste like. These are the guys and girls asking
you for gages in October and apples in May, snorting that the medlars
are brown and the quinces are hard. They look at you as if you are a
murderer if you slaughter a goes, but they will have their fill in the
'fat duck' with the finest of Irish beef sublimed to hell into a
'molecular mousse' or gorge themselves with veggie burgers dripping
with imported soya because a naked chef has his picture on the plastic
rapping.
>