Which Foxwhelp?

[Ray Blockley]

Hello all,

 

Hope everyone is fine and dandy. I've been following the discussions about apple varieties as my ordering and planting list for this winter is still meandering along... I too like Foxwhelp as a cider and can always remember drinking a fine example at the CAMRA National Championships when they were held at Stockport back in the 1990's (and then being absolutely stunned and gob-smacked when the 1st prize was given to Weston's for Old Rosie...).

 

However, I digress; the title of this post says it all really - which Foxwhelp is the one to go for: Foxwhelp or Broxwood Foxwhelp - or (as I suspect) are they one and the same? I have also come across mention of a 'Bulmers Foxwhelp' but I suspect this may mean it was simply sourced from Bulmers?

 

Cheers,

Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[Mark Shirley]

...which Foxwhelp is the one to go for: Foxwhelp or Broxwood Foxwhelp - or (as I suspect) are they one and the same? I have also come across mention of a 'Bulmers Foxwhelp' but I suspect this may mean it was simply sourced from Bulmers?

Cheers,
Ray

 

Good question Ray. While you're about it, don't forget to include Improved Foxwhelp, and Red Foxwhelp too...

 

Mark

http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/

[Andrew Lea]

Ray Blockley wrote:

>
> ... I too like Foxwhelp as a cider and can
> always remember drinking a fine example at the CAMRA National
> Championships when they were held at Stockport back in the 1990's (

You are in good company. When i first knew Bulmers in the early 70's old
Bertram Bulmer had a single variety bottled Foxwhelp made for his own
especial use and for his friends and the company directors. At the time
I guess I didn't appreciate it as much as i would now (though how he got
the acid down I'm not sure. I think it was aged in wood for a year at
least and went ML).

>
> However, I digress; the title of this post says it all really - which
> Foxwhelp is the one to go for: Foxwhelp or Broxwood Foxwhelp - or (as I
> suspect) are they one and the same? I have also come across mention of a
> 'Bulmers Foxwhelp' but I suspect this may mean it was simply sourced
> from Bulmers?

You can only go for what you can get. According to Ray Williams (in
Bulmers Pomona) there are at least 6 Foxwhelps, all closely related
sports of one another. Bulmer's Foxwhelp is I think the most common
since it was selected and planted by them in the 1930's (hence the name
- like Bulmers Norman). Broxwood I think is a Bulmers Orchard (see
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/327869) so it was yet another Foxwhelp
sport selected from there by Ray and Liz Copas for 'cleaning up' free
from virus. I can take credit for transporting the scion wood from Long
Ashton to Scotts at Merriott in 1988 so they could bud it for me and
bulk it up for themselves. Both Broxwood and Bulmers Foxwhelp are in the
Scotts Catalogue (I take issue with BW being described as a small tree,
which it certainly ain't).

I need to talk to Liz soon so i will ask her for the definitive lowdown
when i do. I am very happy with the BW but have no experience of any
of the others.

Andrew

--
Wittenham Hill Cider Page
http://www.cider.org.uk

[Melanie Wilson]

Keepers has Foxwelp origin 1600s for £15

National Apple Collection lists
1. Broxwood Foxwhelp
2. Red Foxwhelp

Might be worth trying http://users.tinyonline.co.uk/applewise/ I think they
mainly do Welsh cider apples, but they have done my perry pears.

I'm sure most orchards will graft you a tree if you can find scion wood from
somebody. Sorry I don't have any of those cultivars or I'd offer to do some

Hope that is some use.

Mel

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[Rose Grant]

Hello everybody,

For those of you who don't already know me, I'm a craft cidermaker in
Dorset. I make 7000 litres each year, most of which is sold to local
pubs.

I've been watching the great surge of discussion here for sometime
with interest. I was half expecting that something would jump out at
me and it did!

Andrew Lea wrote:
> Broxwood I think is a Bulmers Orchard (see
> http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/327869) so it was yet another
> Foxwhelp
> sport selected from there by Ray and Liz Copas for 'cleaning up' free
> from virus. I can take credit for transporting the scion wood from
> Long
> Ashton to Scotts at Merriott in 1988 so they could bud it for me and
> bulk it up for themselves.

I've wanted to get a Foxwhelp for my orchard for some time. This year
Ny kindly sent me some scions of it from Herefordshire, which I bench
grafted on to M25 rootstocks. Two survived, so I potted them on, into
slightly bigger pots using good quality compost. They romped away but
when the leading shoots reached about two inches, the leaves curled up
and they died. I've not had this happen before. It looked every bit as
if they had been hit by a mystery virus. Having read Andrew's
comments, I'm wondering if Foxwhelp is especially prone to virus
infection and difficult to propagate. Has anybody else had the same
problem?

Rose

[Mark Shirley]

> Hello everybody,
>
> For those of you who don't already know me, I'm a craft cidermaker in
> Dorset. I make 7000 litres each year, most of which is sold to local
> pubs.
>
> I've been watching the great surge of discussion here for sometime
> with interest. I was half expecting that something would jump out at
> me and it did!

> I've wanted to get a Foxwhelp for my orchard for some time. This year

> Ny kindly sent me some scions of it from Herefordshire, which I bench
> grafted on to M25 rootstocks. Two survived, so I potted them on, into
> slightly bigger pots using good quality compost. They romped away but
> when the leading shoots reached about two inches, the leaves curled up
> and they died. I've not had this happen before. It looked every bit as
> if they had been hit by a mystery virus. Having read Andrew's
> comments, I'm wondering if Foxwhelp is especially prone to virus
> infection and difficult to propagate. Has anybody else had the same
> problem?
>
> Rose

Welcome aboard Rose, and congratulations on your recent success at the Bath
& West.

Here's a thing!... I grafted a scion of Golden Harvey which Ny kindly sent
me onto MM106 at a grafting event. The quality of the scion wood was
marginal, small, thin, and a little 'craggy', rather than the smooth
'pencils' I'd taken from my own trees. I wasn't really expecting a positive
outcome, and sure enough, this was the only graft of seven assorted
stock/scion combinations which didn't take.

The rootstock itself produced a healthy looking stem, and I resigned myself
to re-using the stock for either stooling, or re-grafting next year.
However, a few weeks ago, the new growth from the stock withered and
completely died back. I've now pruned back quite hard and there does appear
to be some signs of life in one or two buds, but I now wonder whether the
scion has introduced a virus across the graft.

Without wishing to implicate anyone, least of all Ny who seems to be the
UK's No.1 scion-wood philanthropist, I wonder where these scions came from,
and whether there is a common cause.

[PHILL PALMER]

Hello Mark and Rose,

I grafted a Golden Harvey (also from Ny) onto an MM106 (bought as an Aldi's ornamental crab).

The shoots have only just started to sprout - it is so late I thought that the cleft graft hadn't taken.

On the same rootstock I have grafted another from Ny a local variety he calls Green Man, this seems ok.

However on another MM106 the Green Man sprouted to about 2 inches then withered ? This is on what I call my Heinz 57 tree

where I also have Pig Aderyn, YM and Cummy Norman. The Pig Aderyn is racing away but I don't think the grafts on the

YM and Cummy Noramn have taken.

Phill

[Melanie Wilson]

>I'm wondering if Foxwhelp is especially prone to virus
infection and difficult to propagate. Has anybody else had the same
problem?

My old books talk of problems with canker.

Interestingly I had the same thing happen to one graft this year, it was
from an unknown apple from a very old orchard & the scion wasn't the
greatest.

What grafting method did you use.

Are you aware some scions are not compatible with some rootstocks ? No
personal experience with this (I'm prety new to grafting but do quite a bit
of pre-research)but reading the acedemic lit. With rare cultivars I need to
get sucess with, I try and graft onto at least to rootstocks and am
considering also top working in addition as belt braces & string ;)

[Melanie Wilson]

>but I now wonder whether the
scion has introduced a virus across the graft.

Several sources sugesst treatment of scion wood to kill off any potential
nasties.

I'll post the info I've gathered when I'm on the right computer. (no
something I've done so far)

[Melanie Wilson]

>However on another MM106

 

MM106 with its burrs is allegedly (academic lit again)more vulnerable than some others to attack externally.

 

BTW I'm told scions can stay dormant until next year. I'm going to leave some of mine & see what happens.

[Dick Dunn]

Rose - Welcome! And congrats again on the B&W wins.

Re your grafting failure, you wrote:
...
> [Foxwhelp]... which I bench

> grafted on to M25 rootstocks. Two survived, so I potted them on, into
> slightly bigger pots using good quality compost. They romped away but
> when the leading shoots reached about two inches, the leaves curled up

> and they died. I've not had this happen before...

Could you say for sure that the graft had actually taken?

Sometimes I've had a graft appear to take, with encouraging growth on the
scion, but then it dies off after 2-3 weeks. I remove the graft wax and
tie, and find that the graft was a failure and what I'd seen was the scion
growing on its own strength. It grew only until it expended the energy
available in the scion itself.

If you've still got the failed grafts, open them up and look at the graft
union (or, for the situation I describe, the lack-of-union).

Based on re-thinking some of my past mistakes, I believe I encouraged
some failures like this by not cutting scionwood soon enough, while it
was still dormant.
--
Dick Dunn rc...@talisman.com Hygiene, Colorado USA

[Ray Blockley]

Hello Rose! Great to see you!

 

My two penn'orth:

 

Phill kindly sent me a scion of Cummy Norman which I grafted onto a sport / self-set growing out of some spent pomace I'd spread on the garden for the Blackbirds to fight over...

 

It has taken really well and has two big fat green shoots romping away. Question: I have left two shoots on the original rootstock below the graft. How long should I leave these? Should I prune them / pinch them back? Just don't want them to take too much energy from the desired Cummy Norman growth.

 

Unfortunately, the Pig Aderyn graft I also attempted does not appear to be very well...

 

Cheers,

 

Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[michael]

Rose,
I have a three Broxwood Foxwhelps (one grafted four years
ago),and they are all quite large very healthy trees.The only thing
that holds them back is winter moth,which I have described earlier.My
trees were obtained from Bulmers some years ago,and are quite vigorous
growers,particularly in my orchard which is on thin limestone soil.
Regards
Michael

[Melanie Wilson]

>Should I prune them / pinch them back? Just don't want them to take too much energy from the desired Cummy Norman growth.

 

On the rootstock ? I pinch any shoots growing out, unless I wanted to keep them, eg on a muli tree

 

 

Mel

 

 

[Dick Dunn]

On Thu, Jun 04, 2009 at 06:08:11PM +0100, Ray Blockley wrote:
> ... Question: I have left two shoots on the original rootstock below

> the graft. How long should I leave these? Should I prune them / pinch them
> back?

Ray -
I've always pinched/snipped "top growth" from the rootstock of a graft.
My reasoning (whether correct or not, I think it's at least consistent:)
is this: It's a two-way street between the root and the top growth,
with water and nutrients moving up, photosynthesized food moving down.
However, with a new graft the rootstock is much better off than the
scion, so why not let the scion have everything the rootstock can give
it instead of having to share with leaves on the rootstock?

[Melanie Wilson]

>Based on re-thinking some of my past mistakes, I believe I encouraged
some failures like this by not cutting scionwood soon enough, while it
was still dormant.

Of the 30 plus I did this year the highest sucess rates were on those
grafted in Feb and those where grafts done in March, the scion wood was held
in the fridge from cutting to grafting (but they were slow to take off)

[Ray Blockley]

Hi all,

Thanks for all the info and replies. I'm now much wiser about grafting and
scions (and the need for more patience...). I've pinched out most of the
rootstock growth on the Cummy Norman graft and had a teeny prune at the end
of the (dormant?) Pig Aderyn graft - the wood is still green so I am going
to wait it out.

However, I'm intrigued by the number of Foxwhelps... Is one better than
another? The concept of a Red Foxwhelp intrigues me; anyone know why so
named? Colour of fruit or flesh of fruit?

Cheers,
Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[Andrew Lea]

Ray Blockley wrote:

>
> However, I'm intrigued by the number of Foxwhelps... Is one better than
> another? The concept of a Red Foxwhelp intrigues me; anyone know why so
> named? Colour of fruit or flesh of fruit?

The Foxwhelp goes back to the 17th century, maybe beyond, and has always
been highly esteemed. I suspect the reason there are now so many is
because people have been constantly trying to improve it, by taking bud
sports and grafting them. Hence there are so many (as indeed there are
many clones of Cox and Bramley). Maybe it sports especially freely - i
don't know. Or perhaps some are just seedlings with some Foxwhelp character.

Hogg and Bull are full of praise for 'Foxwhelp' per se (in too long an
extract to post). The others tend to be somewhat damned as follows:

"Red Foxwhelp

This apple is chiefly grown in the Bodenham and Marden districts. It is
pretty, well-shaped, and very rich in colour. It is pleasant to eat,
useful in cooking, and its growers value it as a cider apple.

Description. - Fruit: small, roundish ovate, even and regular in its
outline. Skin, uniformly very dark crimson, almost of a chestnut or
mahogany colour over its whole surface, except a small portion on the
shaded side, which is a little, but very little paler. Eye, small and
slightly open, with short rather erect segments, and set in a shallow,
plaited basin; tube, short conical; stamens, rather marginal. Flesh,
yellow, deeply stained with crimson, both under the skin and at the
core; very tender, pleasantly flavoured, and with a slight acidity.
Cells of the core, open; cell-walls, ovate.

The want of size in the Red Foxwhelp, and its want of sufficient
character too, will prevent its being generally grown. Its chemical
analysis, however, shows it to be rich in sugar and mucilage."

"Black Foxwhelp

This apple is very widely grown through the county, and is to be found
in the majority of “apple heaps.” Its definite ovate shape, smooth
surface, and dull colour, make it quite unmistakeable. It bears very
freely, and this perhaps is its best qualification, for the cider made
from it is thin and poor.

The sooner the trees of the Black Foxwhelp are re-grafted or cut down
the better. "

If you don't have the Marcher Apple Network Vintage fruit CD, I suggest
you get one. It has entries for at least 5 different Foxwhelps.

[The Marches Cyder Circle]

Mark,

Reading this prompted me to rush out (in the rain!) and check the 14
Golden Harvey's that I myself grafted onto from the same graftwood
source. I'm happy to announce that with one exception all have 'taken'
and are doing well. Likewise 'The Green Man' (mentioned elsewhere in
this thread).
Sometimes grafts will 'go away' on the residual 'goodness' left in the
scion, only to subsequently fail due to a poor or failed union with
the stock. Reasons for failure are numerous though...sap sucking
insects, hungry caterpillars, infection gaining access through a badly
wrapped graft, and, with the best will in the world, no one can
guarantee doing every one right in any case . We all have failures.
If you were at a grafting event (or doing numerous grafts in one
sitting), it's possible that you may have carried an infection into
your Golden Harvey graft from one performed with the same knife
earlier. I always sterilise my grafting knife in spirit before
starting on the next tree to prevent this - Stephen Hayes does the
same i believe. Good practice I reckon.
Any road up, if you fancy having a go at budding in a month or so, I
would be happy to send you a stick of buds 1st class post (you would
have to work them immediately upon receipt to prevent them from drying
out). Alternately, if, later in the year, I have a 'Harvey' left over,
you can have it with my compliments.

Regards to all, Ny.

On Jun 4, 4:12 pm, "Mark Shirley" <markshirle...@btinternet.com>
wrote:

> Markhttp://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

[Jez Howat]

Ny,

Welcome along! Does this mean we have to start watching our i's and y's :-)

I have been trying to push Mr Hayes in this general direction, but I know he
is really busy at the moment with other things.

All the best

Jez

[Ray Blockley]

Hi Ny,

I trust you and Sharon are well, regards and best wishes to you both. And of
course, welcome, great to hear from you.

May I be sneaky now and "get my name down" for a bit of "The Green Man"
graft wood for later in the year please?

Cheers,

Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[Ray Blockley]

Andrew wrote:

> If you don't have the Marcher Apple Network Vintage fruit CD, I suggest
> you get one. It has entries for at least 5 different Foxwhelps.

Point taken! Very lax of me, so I have just downloaded the forms from the
MAN website and am going to treat myself to both CD's and the leaflets - and
join up!

Cheers,

Ray
http://hucknallciderco.blogspot.com/

[The Marches Cyder Circle]

Jez, ooh ah! Phill and I are just as vocal on the 'y' word as ever !

Talking of Stephen, for the benefit of anyone on here unfamiliar with
his grafting advisory video's, here's a link:

http://www.youtube.com/user/stephenhayesuk

Ray, Yes of course you can have some 'Green Man' scions next year. I
did e-mail you earlier this year offering to send some but probably
missed your reply not realising then that my e-mail was intermittantly
sputtering! Apologies if that was the case. You're on me list !

Hope you and Gail are both well. Ny.

[Rose Grant]

Hello Ny,

I'm so pleased you are now here too!

It seems that you must have solved your internet/email problem as
well. I was convinced it was those 'y' s that were the causing all the
trouble! Evidently not so.

I will remember to get the meths out, next time I'm grafting! Perhaps
the scions like a little snifter.

Cheers,
Rose.

[Mark Shirley]

>
> I will remember to get the meths out, next time I'm grafting! Perhaps
> the scions like a little snifter.
>
> Cheers,
> Rose.
>

I use a well known brand of Swedish vodka on knife and Felco's at home. On
the course we were encouraged to clean knives between grafts with
germ-killing surface wipes.

I guess that unless you get your wood/stock from known, virus free sources
such as nurseries, there's always going to be the (possibly slim) chance of
catching something nasty. 'Cleaning' the scion wood as described in the
Grafters Handbook is probably the best plan, but since the growth on the
stock itself died back, this is just as likely to be the problem, and I'm
not sure how you'd go about 'Cleaning' a rootstock!

To be honest, I was very surprised that so many of my grafts were succesful
this year, I was expecting most to fail.

I'd still like to have a go at the Golden Harvey Ny, and have a rootstock
planted out which would be ideal for budding.

Cheers, Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/

[Melanie Wilson]

>Phill and I are just as vocal on the 'y' word as ever !

Out of interest why ? I could guess but I'd be interested to hear

Mel

[PHILL PALMER]

Mel,

Ny and I are on a mission (not from God though - gave up on him years ago !)

i'm sure he won't mind me copy and pasting the motto from the Marches Cyder Circle

Why 'cyder' with a 'y'?

Our use of the spelling 'cyder' is a result of our wanting to distance the kind of wholesome 100% juice drink we make from the large scale commercially made beverage that 'Joe Public' like's to drink with ice in it.
This industrially produced, chemically enhanced, glucose-ridden, chapatalised product is widely available everywhere under the name of 'cider'. As we all know this 'cider' is sold in all our nations’ outlets, pubs, supermarkets, offies - well everywhere really. There is no doubt that it is this style of drink that the public at large wrongly identify as being 'cider'. We feel this is wrong but realise that we are never going to be able to stop the misuse of the word 'cider' by 'the big boys'. So, what to do?
'Cyder', being an olde traditional (at least C17TH ?) way of describing fermented apple juice, fitted our bill perfectly; and we got to resurrect a lovely old, archaic word into the bargain too.

As hobby cyderist's that’s distance and result enough for us.

SO Remember Real Cyder is spelt with a 'Y'

Cheers

Phill (not Phyll)

> From: Melani...@dragonflight.co.uk
> To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: [CiderWorkshop] Re: Which Foxwhelp? (and introduction)

[jez....@btinternet.com]

And I (and I am sure a few other... Well 'hope' anyway) prefer to call it 'crafted cider'...

Cyder, crafted cider... Horses for courses I think... But all tastes goof!

I agree that the generalised cider label has become abused though.

Jez

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

---

From: PHILL PALMER
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 13:43:26 +0000

To: <cider-w...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [CiderWorkshop] Re: Which Foxwhelp? (and introduction)

[jez....@btinternet.com]

I am sure that should have read 'good' and not 'goof'!

Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device

---

From: jez....@btinternet.com
Date: Sat, 6 Jun 2009 14:00:22 +0000

[Melanie Wilson]

Hi Phill

 thought it might be something like that :)

 

Yes lots of ref 17th C spelling cYder  can give you one for syder c1550-1625, there is also cydor late 17th c

 

I think the spelling is more likely to be a lack of uniform spelling than a difference in specific drinks, just as one sees perry and perrie.

 

Anyhow I do sympathise, whenever I mention wanting to make  perry they say Babycham ? Then after explaining it is oh pear cider :(

 

Mel

 

[Melanie Wilson]

Original Foxwhelp scion here FOC
http://www.orchard-group.uklinux.net/glos/apples/supplier.php?Foxwhelp
Not sure if anyone here had any but in case they don't !

Mel

[Mark Ellis]

Well Phill,

That statement is in danger of making complete sense. I like the point of wanting to distance yourself from megaswill. I think I may have  just been  turned!

Keep up the good fight MCC.

Cheers

Mark E in Oz

[The Marches Cyder Circle]

Mark,

 

I started this poll off a while ago for a bit of fun....have your say in the debate here:

 

http://www.misterpoll.com/polls/344302

 

Regards, Ny.

---

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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[ciderworkshop admin]

Ha ha... Ny,

Would you mind our posting this to the links section of the group for
a while?

Who knows where it would lead??!!

All the best

[Melanie Wilson]

Hi Ny

 

Thanks for posting the Poll

 

As I said I've joined this group more as a person interested in apples than in cider, because I thought I hated English Cider and only like French cidre.

 

Well I'm becoming a convert :) After visiting Mark and sampling his brews I'm totally convinced I can like English cider (maybe even Welsh too but not tried that yet)

 

Stupidly it never dawned on me that commercial cider was so chemically influence, not sure how I missed that but possibly I just have had bad choices of roadside scrumpy and thinking anything in the UK marked cider tasted like paintstripper.

 

So speaking as somebody recently converted I'm completely stumped on what you chaps (chappesess) should be calling your cider. My scrumpy exploits were not very heartening, so I'd not willing try that, Real Cider equals scrumpy in my mind. Craft Cider sounds a bit men in beards & sandals.

 

I'm not convinced by zyder or Cyder as they just seem like poor spelling & I'm not sure my dyslexic brain would easily make the connection without it being rammed down my throat.

 

I rather favour reclaiming cider via the EU like has been done with Chine (ie the butcher method) or numerous other foods that claim a specific heritage and therefore a specific methodology that does not include pickling oneself in chemical additives. (although I suppose alcohol is a chemical but you know what I mean)

 

How about some kind of peer rated acknowledgement, that it is cider made from apples ? Some sort of easily recognised mark across all the makes  that visually shows what it is, something along the lines of an apple with juice coming out straight into a bottle representation, but artier , springs to mind.

 

That way you get a brand style recognition, once you build up the publics awareness of its existence. You could TM that so only real cider is allowed to use it under agreement of a cooperative body of you all or some such .

 

Well those are my rambling, but having tasted the stuff now I do think you do need to distinguish it from the yucky stuff !

[Jez Howat]

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! I neither have beard nor sandals and (I’ll have you know) surfed my 20’s away – although that might sound a bit hippy-ish…barring that I am too young to remember the hippy’s.

 

I like crafted cider personally… the idea of crafting something makes me sound windswept and interesting (and skilled at something manual – which is unusual for me!) However, I think we are in with as much chance of recovering ‘cider’ as a premium name as ‘lager’ is – and I am told that the main brands wouldn’t know what ‘lagering’ is if it jumped out and bit them.

 

I have toyed with several ideas about ‘standards’ previously, but you have to carry some clout to make it work – maybe its something for the NACM, CAMRA or a card-carrying organisation. However, I am sure we would all be happy to work with them to achieve something. Is that what you had in mind Ny?

 

Jez

 

From: cider-w...@googlegroups.com [mailto:cider-w...@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Melanie Wilson

Sent: 08 June 2009 13:40
To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

[Melanie Wilson]

>Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!! I neither have beard nor sandals and (I’ll have you know) surfed my 20’s away – although that might sound a bit hippy-ish…barring that I am too young to remember the hippy’s.

 

There is nothing what-so-ever with having a beard, sandals or both. But it is the image it conjours up, which in my case would make it a good not a bad thing, but is not a good general public perception ;)

 

>I like crafted cider personally… the idea of crafting something makes me sound windswept and interesting (and skilled at something manual – which is unusual for me!)

 

lol

 

>However, I think we are in with as much chance of recovering ‘cider’ as a premium name as ‘lager’ is – and I am told that the main brands wouldn’t know what ‘lagering’ is if it jumped out and bit them.

 

I'm sure that is true, as in they wouldn't know. I'm not sure about no chance but money & dedication would no doubt be involved. And you are in the smaller league so hard financially to support such a move. But battles have been fought and won by smaller groups along similar veins.

 

> but you have to carry some clout to make it work

 

Why do you think that ? CAMRA and may other groups started small and built up their reputation over many years, as did most clout type organisations. If you want control over what your product is, IMHO you need to make your own criteria not jump on a band wagon.

 

Mel

[The Marches Cyder Circle]

Feel free. I hope It generates some interest. Regards, Ny.

----- Original Message -----

From: ciderworkshop admin

To: Cider Workshop

Sent: Monday, June 08, 2009 11:24 AM

Subject: [CiderWorkshop] Re: 'Y' word poll

This email has been scanned by Netintelligence       
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[The Marches Cyder Circle]

Right you are Mark. I send you a good stick nearer the time. Ny.

----- Original Message -----

From: Mark Shirley

To: cider-w...@googlegroups.com

Sent: Saturday, June 06, 2009 2:07 PM

Subject: [CiderWorkshop] Re: Which Foxwhelp? (and introduction)

>

I'd still like to have a go at the Golden Harvey Ny, and have a rootstock
planted out which would be ideal for budding.

Cheers, Mark
http://rockinghamforestcider.moonfruit.com/
http://rockinghamforestcider.blogspot.com/